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Thread: Why is it believed that all men are condemned from birth?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardima View Post
    Then by all means close the thread if you no longer widh to discuss the OP.
    Another distortion. When does it end with you?

    Once a being is conceived it then follows that he is born... I have explained that I do not beleive that God will send an infant to hell though you cannot deny that He would be just in doing so if He so chose. The law has been given since Adam and we are therefore still born under the law. The law cares not about circumstances, but God is love. Christ has already finnished and secured the redemption of all men through him.
    Wrong thinking, wrong conclusion and because you are building on a crooked foundation, everything after that is also, crooked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Wrong thinking, wrong conclusion and because you are building on a crooked foundation, everything after that is also, crooked.
    The fondation I build on is "in Adam all; in Christ all."

    Thats a pretty strait foundation.
    Christ is the Gospel; Christ is our righteousness; Christ is our hope!!! No Jesus; no righteousness. No Jesus; no hope!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardima View Post
    The fondation I build on is "in Adam all; in Christ all."

    Thats a pretty strait foundation.
    Not hardly straight or level when you can't seem to understand to address what I have posited for you think on, i.e., Holy Spirit gift you believe you have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Not hardly straight or level when you can't seem to understand to address what I have posited for you think on, i.e., Holy Spirit gift you believe you have.
    The gift of the Holy Spirit is what has sealed me until the time of redemption of the purchased possession.Why do you have such a hard time when it comes to the Holy Spirit? Have you never felt Him lead you or hear Him speak to you? If not, I would question my position in Christ if I were you.
    Christ is the Gospel; Christ is our righteousness; Christ is our hope!!! No Jesus; no righteousness. No Jesus; no hope!

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    [QUOTE=Ardima;4315055]
    The gift of the Holy Spirit is what has sealed me until the time of redemption of the purchased possession.
    That can only be the Pentecostal gift. Do you understand that you might avoid being presumptuous?

    Why do you have such a hard time when it comes to the Holy Spirit?
    Why do you have such a hard time understanding that I don't?

    Have you never felt Him lead you or hear Him speak to you? If not, I would question my position in Christ if I were you.
    And I would suggest you pay better attention to what voice it is that speaks to you that you might learn to discern between "Light" and 'light'.

    FWIW, Righteousness is a choice. Innocence is not a choice. Babies are incapable of choosing until they come to the knowledge of right and wrong and then God will judge with His righteous judgment in the matters of their choosing[s] until it can be said of them that they are without excuse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    FWIW, Righteousness is a choice. Innocence is not a choice. Babies are incapable of choosing until they come to the knowledge of right and wrong and then God will judge with His righteous judgment in the matters of their choosing[s] until it can be said of them that they are without excuse.
    Forget the whole baby thing. The more pressing matter is that you think righteousness is a choice. Our righteousness if found only in Jesus Christ. We have none of our own, all we have are the works for which we will be judged. No Jesus; no righteousness. No Jesus, No hope...
    Christ is the Gospel; Christ is our righteousness; Christ is our hope!!! No Jesus; no righteousness. No Jesus; no hope!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardima View Post
    Forget the whole baby thing. The more pressing matter is that you think righteousness is a choice. Our righteousness if found only in Jesus Christ. We have none of our own, all we have are the works for which we will be judged. No Jesus; no righteousness. No Jesus, No hope...
    Your words; analysis of scripture, prove you have no gift:

    "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: [B]but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD[/B]." Joshua 24:15 (KJV)

    Righteousness is a choice!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Your words; analysis of scripture, prove you have no gift:

    "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: [B]but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD[/B]." Joshua 24:15 (KJV)

    Righteousness is a choice!
    The works you choose can be righteous works, but those righteous works do not make you righteous. If you love God you will love to do righteous works, but it is Jesus who imparts His righteousness upon us that we may stand before God the Father unaccused.

    All actions are choices, yet no choice is righteousness you are either righteous in Christ or you are not righteous at all. No Jesus; no righteousness. No Jesus; no hope.

    If righteousness were a choice there would be no need of a Savior.
    Christ is the Gospel; Christ is our righteousness; Christ is our hope!!! No Jesus; no righteousness. No Jesus; no hope!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardima View Post
    The works you choose can be righteous works, but those righteous works do not make you righteous. If you love God you will love to do righteous works, but it is Jesus who imparts His righteousness upon us that we may stand before God the Father unaccused.

    All actions are choices, yet no choice is righteousness you are either righteous in Christ or you are not righteous at all. No Jesus; no righteousness. No Jesus; no hope.

    If righteousness were a choice there would be no need of a Savior.
    Why don't you stop preaching to the choir. Get understanding re the words of others, like mine.

    Righteousness a choice and it doesn't require the indwelling life of Jesus Christ unless you have in your mind to rewrite the OT, which is what you are doing. David was a man after God's own heart. Perhaps you would like to begin there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Why don't you stop preaching to the choir. Get understanding re the words of others, like mine.

    Righteousness a choice and it doesn't require the indwelling life of Jesus Christ unless you have in your mind to rewrite the OT, which is what you are doing. David was a man after God's own heart. Perhaps you would like to begin there.
    You do know that "a man after God's own heart" has nothing to do with righteousness right?

    That phrase is a figure of speach meaning he valued the things of God above all else.

    There is not a single verse that claims David as a righteous man. The only time the word is used in the same sentence as David is when God says He will rise up a righteous branch (Jesus).

    David himself even claims that there is none living who are righteous. (Psalm 143:2).

    Not to mention the reiteration of this in Romans 3:10.

    No Jesus; no righteousness. No Jesus; no hope.
    Christ is the Gospel; Christ is our righteousness; Christ is our hope!!! No Jesus; no righteousness. No Jesus; no hope!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardima View Post
    You do know that "a man after God's own heart" has nothing to do with righteousness right?

    That phrase is a figure of speach meaning he valued the things of God above all else.

    There is not a single verse that claims David as a righteous man. The only time the word is used in the same sentence as David is when God says He will rise up a righteous branch (Jesus).

    David himself even claims that there is none living who are righteous. (Psalm 143:2).

    Not to mention the reiteration of this in Romans 3:10.

    No Jesus; no righteousness. No Jesus; no hope.
    Uh, I am not going play your game with David and will ignore your lack of response to the Joshua reference so OK, lets see what you do with Job? Job chose righteousness as a way of life. Jesus wasn't around ___ go fer it! I will try hard not to laugh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Uh, I am not going play your game with David and will ignore your lack of response to the Joshua reference so OK, lets see what you do with Job? Job chose righteousness as a way of life. Jesus wasn't around ___ go fer it! I will try hard not to laugh.
    There are two words that are translated as righteous in Hebrew. The first is tsaw-dak' which means to be made righteous or to justify. The former, to be made righteous, is used only when it is God that is making one righteous: and the latter, to justify, is either done by God or someone else depending on the context of whether the justification is toward God or another human being.

    The second word we find in Hebrew comes from tsaw-dak'; it is tsad-deek' and refers to deeds and those who perform the deeds, but either way it is referring to one's actions (works) not their being (actual nature).

    Job is said to be righteous (tsad-deek') many times; however, he is mocked when he says that he is made righteous (tsaw-dak') by God.

    You find this same thing throughout the entire OT. God is the one who makes one righteous, and He has promised to justify those who work righteousness. However one can only work righteousness out of the Love of God, which we can only know through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Old Testament through the promise of the coming messiah, and the New Testament trough the finished work of the Messiah. So again in the end.... No Jesus; no righteousness. No Jesus; No hope!


    As for the the whole Joshua thing... It was a choice to serve the Lord; which, not surprisingly, is a righteous deed (tsad-deek').
    Christ is the Gospel; Christ is our righteousness; Christ is our hope!!! No Jesus; no righteousness. No Jesus; no hope!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardima View Post
    There are two words that are translated as righteous in Hebrew. The first is tsaw-dak' which means to be made righteous or to justify. The former, to be made righteous, is used only when it is God that is making one righteous: and the latter, to justify, is either done by God or someone else depending on the context of whether the justification is toward God or another human being.

    The second word we find in Hebrew comes from tsaw-dak'; it is tsad-deek' and refers to deeds and those who perform the deeds, but either way it is referring to one's actions (works) not their being (actual nature).

    Job is said to be righteous (tsad-deek') many times; however, he is mocked when he says that he is made righteous (tsaw-dak') by God.

    You find this same thing throughout the entire OT. God is the one who makes one righteous, and He has promised to justify those who work righteousness. However one can only work righteousness out of the Love of God, which we can only know through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Old Testament through the promise of the coming messiah, and the New Testament trough the finished work of the Messiah. So again in the end.... No Jesus; no righteousness. No Jesus; No hope!


    As for the the whole Joshua thing... It was a choice to serve the Lord; which, not surprisingly, is a righteous deed (tsad-deek').
    You can word this to death on your own time __ not mine. Fact is being righteous was of the OT saints and anyone associated with them beginning with Abel on through Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They pleased God by their righteousness. Enter Joseph, a type of Jesus Christ, Moses, Joshua, Samuel AND DAVID on forward to Zacarius, Elizabeth, Anna, Simeon AND MARY!! God didn't make them righteous!!!

    Jesus didn't come to save the righteous but to redeem them. He didn't have to save them!!

    So much for your misquoting scripture __ Rom 3:10 in particular.

    You are beating me to death with your lame excuses for unbelief, steeped in man's reasoning without God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    You can word this to death on your own time __ not mine.
    Etymology is very important to understand the correct meaning of scripture. To throw away the actual meaning because it opposes your self-righteous doctrine is dishonest at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Fact is being righteous was of the OT saints and anyone associated with them beginning with Abel on through Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They pleased God by their righteousness. Enter Joseph, a type of Jesus Christ, Moses, Joshua, Samuel AND DAVID on forward to Zacarius, Elizabeth, Anna, Simeon AND MARY!! God didn't make them righteous!!!
    Fact is? Please give any scripture in correct context and meaning supporting your so-called fact. I have provided you with ample proof that the fact is that God is the one who makes anyone righteous and all we can do are deeds of righteousness... Those deeds do not make us righteous in the eyes of God. We are only made righteous by the grace of God through the redemptive work of Jesus Christ. (see scripture I have provided before)


    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Jesus didn't come to save the righteous but to redeem them. He didn't have to save them!!
    And you say that I misquote? Jesus did not come to call
    the righteous, but sinners to repentance (Luke 5:32)


    There is a big difference between call and save. You might want to get that straightened out, because the way you put it there are some who do not even need a Savior. By your own words you claim that there are some who can save themselves through their own good works (works of righteousness) This type of thinking is the pinnacle of humanism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    So much for your misquoting scripture __ Rom 3:10 in particular.
    There was no misquote. Paul was quoting David, and it means exactly what it plainly says... There is none righteous, no not one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    You are beating me to death with your lame excuses for unbelief, steeped in man's reasoning without God.
    No, I am beating you to death with the plain and simple truth which is... No Jesus; no righteousness before God. No Jesus; no hope in this world!!! The OT saints put their faith in the coming Messiah: the NT saints put their faith in the risen Savior who imparts His righteousness to us that we may be justified before God. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the father but by me." Again... No Jesus; no righteousness. No Jesus; no hope.
    Christ is the Gospel; Christ is our righteousness; Christ is our hope!!! No Jesus; no righteousness. No Jesus; no hope!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Enter Joseph, a type of Jesus Christ, Moses, Joshua, Samuel AND DAVID on forward to Zacarius, Elizabeth, Anna, Simeon AND MARY!! God didn't make them righteous!!!
    What you are saying here is that those listed above never needed Jesus Christ? Too bad, I was hoping to meet them in the age to come...
    Christ is the Gospel; Christ is our righteousness; Christ is our hope!!! No Jesus; no righteousness. No Jesus; no hope!

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