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Thread: Why is it believed that all men are condemned from birth?

  1. #46
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Word based mystic View Post
    throwing a few distraction pics to lighten the mood from all the many weighty and lofty discussions.

    lol
    Such might be seen as trolling or side-railing though. Generally inoffensive doesn't get banned, unless you are asked to refrain or push it overboard.
    Why is it believed that all men are condemned from birth?
    I was going to do the 'because all women are smarter than us' shtick...

    We are "condemned" (marked for the trash heap) at birth because we are born in the grips of sin and death as our master. That's why we are condemned from birth. Every human dies so we are born already with an expiration date that isn't supposed to be there - "condemned."
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

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  2. #47
    Silver Member patrick jane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Word based mystic View Post
    quote from ardima " So what you are saying is that I am wrong simply because you thing man has free will? The doctrine of free will is"

    you ignore much of scripture in order to affirm your calvin gospel.

    your whole angle is looking through calvin eyes.

    adam was given not (promised) dominion over the earth.
    within the command to subdue came the ability and dominion.

    the earth does not long for the manifestation of the sons of God for no reason.

    you also quote "Humans understand things by contrast. You only know what "hot" is because we have experienced "cold." This applies to every part of creation. We only understand the Love of God because we have experienced condemnation"

    that quote is pure speculation. kinda like we only conscious thought because at one time we once had no thoughts. lol
    or
    we only understand self awareness because we at one time were unaware.
    lol

    we only understand pain is bad because we can experience pleasure.
    lol

    we only understand life because at one time we did not exist and in that non existence we understood what that non existence meant.

    you promote an occultic yin/yang goobley gock. balance and contrast baaahhh occult yin yang

    no good without evil LOL

    God needs an evil counterpart to exist lol
    this contrast theory is really silly
    ok, whew. i thought you were saying that stuff for a sec. i see now what you were doing. i almost didn't see the QUOTE at the top -
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



  3. #48
    Over 500 post club Word based mystic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    ok, whew. i thought you were saying that stuff for a sec. i see now what you were doing. i almost didn't see the QUOTE at the top -
    yeah
    i am in my very busy 12 hour days of restoration work/pressure washing.

    that post wasn't my best and was left hanging for clarity.

    2 minutes till out the door and another 11 hour day

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    TOL Legend Cross Reference's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardima View Post
    You mean facts? Science has proven such things between hot and cold. It is only logical that it is the same with the spiritual because the physical is a shadow of the spiritual. There are attributes that God must have to be the Eternal One. Nothing we find in scripture when viewed correctly go against those attributes. All doctrine must be in line with the nature of God or that doctrine is incorrect. Free will in the sense that most use it here on TOL goes against the nature of God. God has given man a will and lets him choose to love God or not, but in regards to salvation it was accomplished for all in Jesus Christ just as it was planned before time began. The only way Adam would not have sinned is if God did not create him with a sinful nature to begin with. God took responsibility for the "fall" and therefore is the only one responsible for salvation. To claim responsibility for something only God provides is treading dangerous waters.
    Indeed, God did take responsibility for the fall of man. That is why He provided a way out for man, even from the beginning: "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? Accepted by who?? " and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him." Genesis 4:7 (KJV). This must accepted or it is no longer God's "fault". OMT: Irrespective of the "fall", is this not an example of evidence that God was looking for a people [disciples] for His purpose with willing obedience remaining as the test?

    Now, what were you saying about mans will in the matter or God needing to gift something additional to man for man to obey His Word? You apparently believe God needed to do that with Adam because you say God created him with a sinful nature, even though there could have been no sin in Adam which, had there have been, would have revealed God to us as being "unjust". That was just a hypothetical you no doubt will close your mind to.

    Both Adam and Jesus came into existence by the direct hand of God. Both were innocent when they came in. The Joy of the Lord kept Jesus. What kept Adam?
    Last edited by Cross Reference; April 21st, 2015 at 07:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Such might be seen as trolling or side-railing though. Generally inoffensive doesn't get banned, unless you are asked to refrain or push it overboard.

    I was going to do the 'because all women are smarter than us' shtick...

    We are "condemned" (marked for the trash heap) at birth because we are born in the grips of sin and death as our master. That's why we are condemned from birth. Every human dies so we are born already with an expiration date that isn't supposed to be there - "condemned."
    What shallow understanding is this from a Professor to be received as truth by his learners?? Such stupidity should be viewed as sin.

    FACT:: Innocence-blamelessness is not and never was nor ever can be condemned by God. That IS God's Word! Therefore . . . . .

    Am I angry? YES! Lon should know better!

  6. #51
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    I am still looking for a clear response to the OP. Obviously it has to be because of the various doctrines that speak of it being that way of a necessity to support the foundations of those doctrines. Are those doctrines accurate?

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    Journeyman Ardima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Indeed, God did take responsibility for the fall of man. That is why He provided a way out for man, even from the beginning: "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? Accepted by who?? " and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him." Genesis 4:7 (KJV). This must accepted or it is no longer God's "fault". OMT: Irrespective of the "fall", is this not an example of evidence that God was looking for a people [disciples] for His purpose with willing obedience remaining as the test?
    Yes it is evidence that God was looking for a people for His purpose with willing obedience as the test. Only Calvinists would object to that. I would never claim that God did not provide man with a will; however, that will is limited. Willing obedience has nothing to do with salvation, but willing obedience has everything to do with loving God for providing our salvation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Now, what were you saying about mans will in the matter or God needing to gift something additional to man for man to obey His Word? You apparently believe God needed to do that with Adam because you say God created him with a sinful nature, even though there could have been no sin in Adam which, had there have been, would have revealed God to us as being "unjust". That was just a hypothetical you no doubt will close your mind to.
    I said that Adam was created with a sinful nature, meaning he had the potential to sin. (I can prove through scripture that it existed in man before the "fall".) It was this sinful nature that Satan took advantage of when he enticed Eve. That nature was not a problem until Adam and Eve gained possession of the knowledge of good and evil. Why do you think it was that specific tree that was forbidden?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Both Adam and Jesus came into existence by the direct hand of God.
    There are many who would vehemently reject this statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Both were innocent when they came in.
    Yes they were; however Adam was able and did lose that innocence whereas Jesus did not because he was not of Adam.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    The Joy of the Lord kept Jesus. What kept Adam?
    Please elaborate on this if I get the meaning wrong. The promise of the Savior kept Adam, and all other OT saints. We place our faith in what God has done in Jesus Christ whereas they (OT saints) placed their faith in what God would do in Jesus Christ. Both have faith to the same end.
    Christ is the Gospel; Christ is our righteousness; Christ is our hope!!! No Jesus; no righteousness. No Jesus; no hope!

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    [QUOTE=Ardima;4296325]Yes it is evidence that God was looking for a people for His purpose with willing obedience as the test. Only Calvinists would object to that. I would never claim that God did not provide man with a will; however, that will is limited. Willing obedience has nothing to do with salvation, but willing obedience has everything to do with loving God for providing our salvation.

    Our willing obedience has nothing to do with redemption. It most certainly has everything to do with our salvation, redemption provides for and is the the new foundation upon which a new creation is built. "You call Me Lord and don't keep My commandments" __ of what good are we to Him if we live like that?

    Salvation is a choice given man after he has been presented the evidence of Jesus Christ and the Government of God that can only lead to the eternal life man desires. cf John 17:3 KJV.

    I said that Adam was created with a sinful nature, meaning he had the potential to sin. (I can prove through scripture that it existed in man before the "fall".) It was this sinful nature that Satan took advantage of when he enticed Eve. That nature was not a problem until Adam and Eve gained possession of the knowledge of good and evil. Why do you think it was that specific tree that was forbidden?
    You can't prove one word of any of that and the rest you postulate is silly. Where did you read such nonsense and WHY do you want to believe it is even more silly. What does it profit you in doing so __ nothing!

    There are many who would vehemently reject this statement.
    There are even more who vehemently reject all rest of scripture as well. That's not my worry. You are doing a fairly good job.

    Yes they were; however Adam was able and did lose that innocence whereas Jesus did not because he was not of Adam.
    Then Jesus wasn't of David either or born of Mary. Can't you see how silly it sounds to say Jesus wasn't of Adam? Gen 3:15 should close the issue.

    Please elaborate on this if I get the meaning wrong. The promise of the Savior kept Adam, and all other OT saints.
    I know what kept Jesus in His temptation and said so. What was intended to keep Adam BEFORE he sinned, is what I was getting at. Got an answer?
    We place our faith in what God has done in Jesus Christ whereas they (OT saints) placed their faith in what God would do in Jesus Christ. Both have faith to the same end.
    That is all well and good, however, salvation isn't the issue, becoming a glorified son, is ___ after one is saved and born again. See Heb 2:10 KJV.

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    Journeyman Ardima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Our willing obedience has nothing to do with redemption. It most certainly has everything to do with our salvation, redemption provides for and is the the new foundation upon which a new creation is built. "You call Me Lord and don't keep My commandments" __ of what good are we to Him if we live like that?
    We willingly obey out of love because we come to know the truth of our salvation. This is what it means to work out our salvation. Its not that we do good works to be saved its that we do good works because it is impossible not to if you know Jesus Christ as your savior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Salvation is a choice given man after he has been presented the evidence of Jesus Christ and the Government of God that can only lead to the eternal life man desires. cf John 17:3 KJV.
    Faith and obedience is the choice given to man after he has been presented the evidence of Jesus Christ as our Salvation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    You can't prove one word of any of that and the rest you postulate is silly. Where did you read such nonsense and WHY do you want to believe it is even more silly. What does it profit you in doing so __ nothing!
    (1st John 2:16) For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

    Now note the next verse which is before sin occurs.


    (Genesis 3:6) And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, (lust of the flesh) and that it was pleasant to the eyes, (lust of the eyes) and a tree to be desired to make one wise, (pride of life) she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

    All three things listed by John that are not of the Father, but are of the world, are listed in Genesis chapter three, in order, before the "fall." It is not a coincidence!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Then Jesus wasn't of David either or born of Mary. Can't you see how silly it sounds to say Jesus wasn't of Adam? Gen 3:15 should close the issue.
    It is not "silly." Joseph was in the line of David shown in Matthew. All birthrights were passed down through the male. Jesus was considered the son of Joseph firstborn of Mary and rightful heir of the thrown of David. This is how Jesus is legitimately from David.

    You are right, Genesis 3:15 does clear it up. Please notice that God told Eve that the savior would be of her seed, no mention of Adam's seed at all. This is directly referring to a male child that would be born of a virgin (no earthly father and no male seed). It was a prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    I know what kept Jesus in His temptation and said so. What was intended to keep Adam BEFORE he sinned, is what I was getting at. Got an answer?
    Adam wasn't intended to be "kept" before he sinned. As I have said many times; it was planned that way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    That is all well and good, however, salvation isn't the issue, becoming a glorified son, is ___ after one is saved and born again. See Heb 2:10 KJV.
    Well that is where mans will comes in and chooses to be diligent and obedient...
    Last edited by Ardima; April 21st, 2015 at 10:22 PM.
    Christ is the Gospel; Christ is our righteousness; Christ is our hope!!! No Jesus; no righteousness. No Jesus; no hope!

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    [QUOTE=Ardima;4296501]
    We willingly obey out of love because we come to know the truth of our salvation.
    So it is we need to obey that our love TO Him be evidenced.

    This is what it means to work out our salvation.
    Overcoming is what working it out is all about.


    Its not that we do good works to be saved its that we do good works because it is impossible not to if you know Jesus Christ as your savior.
    No. Lord

    Faith and obedience is the choice given to man after he has been presented the evidence of Jesus Christ as our Salvation.
    Faith isn't given for salvation and obedience must follow for it to be evidenced.
    God did not create mental cripples nor did they become so because Adam's transgression.

    (1st John 2:16) For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

    Now note the next verse which is before sin occurs.

    (Genesis 3:6) And when the woman saw that the tree*was*good for food, (lust of the flesh) and that it*was*pleasant to the eyes, (lust of the eyes) and a tree to be desired to make one*wise, (pride of life) she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

    All three things listed by John that are not of the Father, but are of the world, are listed in Genesis chapter three, in order, before the "fall." It is not a coincidence!
    Nor do they make any connection in my thinking things through.

    It is not "silly." Joseph was in the line of David shown in Matthew. All birthrights were passed down through the male. Jesus was considered the son of Joseph firstborn of Mary and rightful heir of the thrown of David. This is how Jesus is legitamately from David.
    In the natural that is so but only to fulfill by proxy the male lineage of Jesus because Joseph was NOT in the lineage of Jesus but Mary, who was of Nathan the brother of Solomon, son of David, was , which satisfied all prophecy [Gen3:15 in particular]

    You are right, Genesis 3:15 does clear it up. Please notice that God told Eve that the savior would be of her seed, no mention of Adam's seed at all.
    That is correct which only points up the above understanding re Joseph by proxy.

    This is directly refering to a male child that would be born of a virgin (no earthly father and no male seed). It was a prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus.
    Again, you support my understanding given you. Thank you..

    Adam wasnt intended to be "kept" before he sinned.
    Neither was Jesus! He was on His own!

    As I have said many times; it was planned that way.
    Well, say it some more and be wrong still . It wasn't planned.

    What was planned was with regards to Adam's failure that should it occur, and it did, God had already prepared a way out for man that, in the end, would net Him a vast family of sons He decreed for Himself __before the beginning of the world:

    "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. John 17:24 (KJV)

    "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Ephesians 1:4 (KJV)

    "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," 1 Peter 1:20 (KJV)

    "and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain." Revelation 13:8 (ESV)

    "Well that is where mans will comes in and chooses to be diligent and obedient"...
    In that, you correct and his obedience must be not coerced but, willingly given __ stemming from that [kinetic] love to God you above mentioned that will lead him in the way of the agape road experience. Jesus said I am the Way, the Alpha and Omega of the journey Home to Father's House.

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    Journeyman Ardima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    So it is we need to obey that our love TO Him be evidenced.



    Overcoming is what working it out is all about.




    No. Lord



    Faith isn't given for salvation and obedience must follow for it to be evidenced.
    God did not create mental cripples nor did they become so because Adam's transgression.



    Nor do they make any connection in my thinking things through.



    In the natural that is so but only to fulfill by proxy the male lineage of Jesus because Joseph was NOT in the lineage of Jesus but Mary, who was of Nathan the brother of Solomon, son of David, was , which satisfied all prophecy [Gen3:15 in particular]



    That is correct which only points up the above understanding re Joseph by proxy.


    Again, you support my understanding given you. Thank you..



    Neither was Jesus! He was on His own!



    Well, say it some more and be wrong still . It wasn't planned.

    What was planned was with regards to Adam's failure that should it occur, and it did, God had already prepared a way out for man that, in the end, would net Him a vast family of sons He decreed for Himself __before the beginning of the world:

    "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. John 17:24 (KJV)

    "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Ephesians 1:4 (KJV)

    "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," 1 Peter 1:20 (KJV)

    "and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain." Revelation 13:8 (ESV)



    In that, you correct and his obedience must be not coerced but, willingly given __ stemming from that [kinetic] love to God you above mentioned that will lead him in the way of the agape road experience. Jesus said I am the Way, the Alpha and Omega of the journey Home to Father's House.
    We got off topic again. Your OP has nothing to do with the lineage of Christ, and it seems that we are in agreement of that. And though I feel that what you believe about God's plan of Salvation violates the sovereignty of God, We can agree that it doesn't change the end result of Salvation.

    Now in regards to the OP, the verses that I have shown you in regards to the sinful nature of man (1st John 2:16 and Genesis 3:6) still stands and supports what I have said about all men being condemned from birth because, just as the Levites payed tithes in Abraham; man has been condemned to die in Adam. If this were not so then babies wouldn't be able to die if they were truly innocent and blameless. "in Adam all die, in Christ all will be made alive." Calvinists would try to turn that into, "in Adam all die, all in Christ will be made alive." (sorry, off topic again.)

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    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    What shallow understanding is this from a Professor to be received as truth by his learners?? Such stupidity should be viewed as sin.

    FACT:: Innocence-blamelessness is not and never was nor ever can be condemned by God. That IS God's Word! Therefore . . . . .

    Am I angry? YES! Lon should know better!
    Ah, there you go. Your true colors come out and show. ▲This▲ and your heresies, are why you are on ignore. I can address the issue but I choose to bow out now and am repeatedly sorry I ever posted in one of your threads.

    You and I are NOT the first to debate this topic nor will be the last. Too bad you can't pull yourself together past your own myopia. See ya CR.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Ah, there you go. Your true colors come out and show. ▲This▲ and your heresies, are why you are on ignore. I can address the issue but I choose to bow out now and am repeatedly sorry I ever posted in one of your threads.

    You and I are NOT the first to debate this topic nor will be the last. Too bad you can't pull yourself together past your own myopia. See ya CR.
    My heresies, you say? The real issue of your "TOO BAD" is the fact you can't be adjusted in your c*** sure attitude and continue to present your Calvinist bane as being the gospel truth. Combine that with your mis-representation of the words of others disguised in ontological bs, purposed to detract away from the subject matter into confusion, and know that is where my anger originates with you and most other arrogant, elitist Calvinist. Indeed, TOO BAD!

    "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;" Romans 1:18 (KJV)

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    So if man was born condemned and babies are blameless/innocent because they are not under the law nor can be, how is it man is born condemned?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardima View Post
    I said that Adam was created with a sinful nature, meaning he had the potential to sin. (I can prove through scripture that it existed in man before the "fall".) It was this sinful nature that Satan took advantage of when he enticed Eve. That nature was not a problem until Adam and Eve gained possession of the knowledge of good and evil. Why do you think it was that specific tree that was forbidden?
    I appreciated reading you in this thread.
    I think you may have a few minor things wrong here. The Calvinists don't see 'sinfulness' as a mere potential to sin. They see it as a propensity. They say that the only choices a normal person has are to sin or to sin more. A Calvinist here has emphasised that people sin because they are already sinful in their natures and have no ability to choose not to sin.

    Of course I disagree with this and I suppose you do too but I am not sure you grasp how far reaching Calvinism is. Some Calvinists find the idea that babies will automatically be condemned too distasteful and so they have concocted a way round the problem by saying that whilst all men the moment they are born are sinful, nevertheless babies haven't actually sinned and since condemnation is for sin, then the babies won't be condemned. There are obvious problems with this from the point of view of self-consistency. In the case of babies they have admitted that the doctrine of predestination is not always true because it would be logical to kill babies at birth to secure them a place in eternal life. But if God has predestined all people already, then if we do murder babies we have either got round that predestination or we were the instruments of those babies being granted eternal life. This seems a completely depraved way of thinking. It is also renders the whole concept of inherited sinfulness as the reason why God shows mercy to some as meaningless.

    Also, God commanded Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It was a command, not a prophecy. Adam had the choice not to.
    However, I agree that Adam did not fall from something. This can be proved by the fact that God stationed an angel to prevent Adam from also eating from the tree of life. So he cannot have eaten from the tree of life before. He was in fact neither mortal nor immortal before he ate the fruit from the tree.
    Total Misanthropy.
    Uncertain salvation.
    Luck of the draw.
    Irresistible damnation.
    Persecution of the saints.

    Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.
    (The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

    RevTestament: It doesn't matter to me too much that the "New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.
    Dialogos: Calvin, as a sinner, probably got some things wrong.
    Brandplucked: I'm shocked that other people disagree with me.

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