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Thread: How plumbing (not vaccines) eradicated disease

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    Over 5000 post club elohiym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Something like one child in a thousand who was diagnosed with measles, died. Of all the millions of kids vaccinated, about 330 died from complications of the vaccine, usually in an immune-compromised patient.
    Even if I accept the figures you've presented, the fraction of a percent that died from wild-type measles were immune-compromised, too, and many didn't die from the measles virus but from secondary infections that could have been caused by their treatment. Far less would have died if people stopped intentionally exposing their children to measles at parties, but the disease was perceived by most people as mild and harmless.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    About one in 10,000 diagnosed cases will develop subacute sclerosing panencephalitis, which is devastating, leading to difficulty in coordination, mental retardation, and often, death.
    It's also a known side effect of the vaccine. See the sobering MMR II package insert.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Again, the odds are better, with the vaccine.
    How can anyone compare an intentional vaccine-caused infection with three different viruses to a chance infection of a healthy individual to a single virus that isn't injected?
    "It is easier to contend with evil at the first than at the last." - Leonardo da Vinci

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    Quote Originally Posted by User Name View Post
    So then, is it better to get a vaccine than it is to get a full-blown disease?
    Not in my opinion.
    "It is easier to contend with evil at the first than at the last." - Leonardo da Vinci

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    Risk of immune thrombocytopenic purpura after measles-mumps-rubella immunization in children.

    "This vaccine causes 1 case of immune thrombocytopenia purpura per every 40,000 doses."

    What are your odds of getting that from a natural measles infection?
    "It is easier to contend with evil at the first than at the last." - Leonardo da Vinci

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    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    What are your odds of getting that from a natural measles infection?
    Good point. When people don't get vaccinated, the odds of becoming infected go up for everyone.



    (But of course, that radical reduction in infection was likely a result of the plumbing introduced to America in the early 1960's. )
    "There was so much handwriting on the wall that even the wall fell down"

    "In the long run of history, the censor and the inquisitor have always lost. The only sure weapon against bad ideas is better ideas. The source of better ideas is wisdom. The surest path to wisdom is a liberal education." Alfred Whitney, Essays on Education

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    Barbarian observes:
    About one in 10,000 diagnosed cases will develop subacute sclerosing panencephalitis, which is devastating, leading to difficulty in coordination, mental retardation, and often, death.

    It's very likely possible for this to happen with vaccinated kids as well. A study, seeking all such cases, identified, out of all the children vaccinated between 1970 and 1993 found 48 children with those symptoms.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9481001

    Again, the odds are better, with the vaccine.

    It's also a known side effect of the vaccine.
    Not definitely demonstrated, but very likely. It just happens a lot less frequently with the vaccine, if it happens. Forty-eight out of umpteen million isn't really a significant issue.

    But one in 10,000 is. It's not hard to see why an attenuated virus would cause fewer side effects than the actual wild virus.
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    Int J Epidemiol. 1989 Sep;18(3):684-9.
    Incidence of subacute sclerosing panencephalitis following measles and measles vaccination in Japan.

    Abstract
    The Japanese Committee for the National Registry of Subacute Sclerosing Panencephalitis (SSPE) confirmed that 215 cases of SSPE occurred in the 20 years from 1966 to 1985, as discovered in the 10-year surveillance from April 1976 through March 1986. The annual incidence in recent years has been between 10 and 23 cases. Among cases with a certain history of measles illness or measles vaccination, 184 (90.2%) had a history of measles illness without receiving measles vaccine. There were 11 probable measles vaccine-associated cases (5.4%), three (1.5%) being vaccinated with a combined use of killed and live vaccine and eight (3.9%) with further attenuated live vaccine. There were nine cases (4.4%) without a history of either measles illness or measles vaccination. Intervals between measles illness and the onset of SSPE varied from 1 to 16 years (mean, 7.0 years). The periods following measles vaccination with further attenuated live vaccine were 2 to 11 years (mean, 4.6 years). Annual incidence rates of SSPE per million cases of measles ranged between 6.1 and 40.9 (mean, 16.1) in the 10 measles epidemic years 1968-1977, and those following vaccination with further attenuated live vaccine were zero in most years and at the highest 3.08 (mean, 0.9) per million doses of distributed vaccine.
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    What are the contraindications and precautions for MMR vaccine?
    Contraindications:
    • history of a severe (anaphylactic) reaction to neomycin (or other vaccine component) or following previous dose of MMR
    • pregnancy
    • severe immunosuppression from either disease or therapy


    Precautions:
    • receipt of an antibody-containing blood product in the previous 11 months
    • moderate or severe acute illness with or without fever
    • history of thrombocytopenia or thrombocytopenic purpura

    http://www.immunize.org/askexperts/e...traindications

    Note: "contraindications" means "don't give the vaccine." "Precautions" means "think carefully before proceeding."
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    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    Risk of immune thrombocytopenic purpura after measles-mumps-rubella immunization in children.

    "This vaccine causes 1 case of immune thrombocytopenia purpura per every 40,000 doses."

    What are your odds of getting that from a natural measles infection?
    forget medicine and doctors and "trained professionals" - you "know" better -

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    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    Even if I accept the figures you've presented, the fraction of a percent that died from wild-type measles were immune-compromised, too, and many didn't die from the measles virus but from secondary infections that could have been caused by their treatment. Far less would have died if people stopped intentionally exposing their children to measles at parties, but the disease was perceived by most people as mild and harmless.



    It's also a known side effect of the vaccine. See the sobering MMR II package insert.



    How can anyone compare an intentional vaccine-caused infection with three different viruses to a chance infection of a healthy individual to a single virus that isn't injected?

    absolutely, forego ANY medical advice or treatment, especially preventative, because YOU and YOUR Family are "protected" by GOD. immune to ANY biological infection whatsoever -

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    It's not as black-and-white as many people on either side would like it to be. The balance is strongly toward getting vaccinations; clearly fewer illnesses and deaths that way.

    And the "autism" scam has been thoroughly debunked. That wretch who invented the false data has the lives of thousands of innocent children to account for.

    Still, it's not risk-free; vaccination is just the safer alternative, not a guarantee. And I speak as one who supervised an immunization clinic for years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by User Name View Post
    So then, is it better to get a vaccine than it is to get a full-blown disease?
    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    Not in my opinion.
    I have had the full schedule of immunizations for my age group and then some (minus annual flu vaccinations), and I'm a healthy middle-aged adult. I've rarely been ill, and when I have my illnesses have been minor. How is this possible if vaccines are so harmful?

    You're position is that I would have been better off if I'd had any or all of the diseases for which I've been immunized rather than have the immunizations. I'm sure you can understand my incredulity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by User Name View Post
    I have had the full schedule of immunizations for my age group and then some (minus annual flu vaccinations), and I'm a healthy middle-aged adult. I've rarely been ill, and when I have my illnesses have been minor. How is this possible if vaccines are so harmful?
    I have had the full schedule of immunizations for my age group and then some (minus annual flu vaccinations), and I am vaccine injured. I live in pain every day. How is this possible if vaccines are so safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by User Name View Post
    You're position is that I would have been better off if I'd had any or all of the diseases for which I've been immunized rather than have the immunizations. I'm sure you can understand my incredulity.
    You asked me about a measles vaccine specifically, and I responded with facts you have not disputed. I wouldn't want a natural measles infection or a vaccine-strain measles infection. The natural infection is clearly better than the vaccine-strain infection for a number of reasons you don't seem to want to discuss.
    "It is easier to contend with evil at the first than at the last." - Leonardo da Vinci

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    forget medicine and doctors and "trained professionals" - you "know" better -
    I was quoting the "trained professionals." You must have missed that.

    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    absolutely, forego ANY medical advice or treatment, especially preventative, because YOU and YOUR Family are "protected" by GOD. immune to ANY biological infection whatsoever -
    Why do you care?

    Even if I was an atheist, I would still be against unsafe and ineffective vaccines. You are just pushing a dangerous ideology and pseudo-science that you don't really understand because throughout your life you were conditioned to trust doctors. As someone who worked as a medical professional for many years, I generally don't trust doctors and know too many medical treatments are not evidence-based.
    "It is easier to contend with evil at the first than at the last." - Leonardo da Vinci

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    It's not as black-and-white as many people on either side would like it to be. The balance is strongly toward getting vaccinations; clearly fewer illnesses and deaths that way.
    How did you conclude that for each vaccine? I'd be interested in seeing some evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    And the "autism" scam has been thoroughly debunked. That wretch who invented the false data has the lives of thousands of innocent children to account for.
    There wasn't an autism scam; it wasn't debunked at all because there was nothing to debunk. Are you claiming Wakefield's study was a smoking gun? I hope not; that's the straw man being used to save a profitable vaccine.

    The Danish study used to discredit the link between autism and MMR vaccination has been debunked, and one of the study authors was found to be a fraudster. Does that upset you as much as what Wakefield allegedly did?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Still, it's not risk-free; vaccination is just the safer alternative, not a guarantee. And I speak as one who supervised an immunization clinic for years.
    Vaccines are unavoidably unsafe.
    "It is easier to contend with evil at the first than at the last." - Leonardo da Vinci

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    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    I have had the full schedule of immunizations for my age group and then some (minus annual flu vaccinations), and I am vaccine injured. I live in pain every day. How is this possible if vaccines are so safe?
    Ah, well now your position makes more sense to me. I suppose that if I'd been injured by a vaccine, I might think differently about it as well. We all agree that vaccines are not 100% safe. Not much in this world is, especially when it comes to the world of medicine.

    Quote Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
    The natural infection is clearly better than the vaccine-strain infection for a number of reasons you don't seem to want to discuss.
    Perhaps that's because, like so many millions of others, I've received the vaccine to no ill effects.

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