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View Poll Results: Do you agree with universal healthcare, free to all at point of need?

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  • Yes

    28 59.57%
  • No

    17 36.17%
  • Unsure

    2 4.26%
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Thread: The Case Against Universal Healthcare

  1. #61
    Over 2000 post club shagster01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    The government option is medicare/medicaid and those have been around for a long time.
    And the numbers using it increase under ACA. Medicaid is slow to reimburse, and requires a TON of paperwork. It is also inadvertently raising the number of people using ER's as a doctors office for non-emergencies. This costs the hospitals, doctors, and clogs the ER with people taking up space that should be used for emergencies.

    Not to mention that the burden that ACA puts on employers have caused many to switch coverage plans. For example, I am now offered a health savings plan instead of a regular policy. It's ok for me, as I am healthy. But if I got a serious illness, I'd be less covered than I was a few years ago. How is that better?
    Having the right to do something does not automatically make it the right thing to do.

    Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814,

  2. #62
    Over 1500 post club lovemeorhateme's Avatar
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    I just wanted to give a brief outline of how the health service works in the UK and how the British people generally view healthcare.

    Firstly, we see access to healthcare for all as a basic human right. No matter where one falls on the political spectrum, I don't think I've ever heard of anyone arguing for the abolition of the NHS (National Health Service). It's not perfect, but the nature of the debate here is about how to reform the health service. No political candidate would suggest abolishing the NHS or they can guarantee they wouldn't get voted in.

    We look at the health system in the US and feel utterly perplexed by some of the horror stories we hear. We can't understand why there is such resistance to the idea of healthcare that is free to all at point of need. We look on in horror when we hear stories of people denied insurance claims, being landed with huge medical bills and even going bankrupt because they can't afford to pay for their treatment.

    I can go and see the doctor and get any treatment I need without worry. There are no co-pays for medical treatment, and all I pay is a small prescription charge for the medications I need. As I need several, I have a prescription prepayment certificate which costs just around 11 ($17-$18) a month which is all I pay for any medications I need. Depending on one's age and financial circumstances, many people are exempt from even prescription charges, and prescriptions are free to all in Wales and Scotland. If I need specialist treatment, I have no problems getting it but depending on how serious the problem is there could be a bit of a wait. At no point do I have to worry about whether or not my medical conditions are 'covered', at no point do I have to worry about large bills or debts.

    On my current wage of 1,000 a month ($1,500) I come home with about 926 ($1,382) a month after tax and national insurance. So the system isn't prohibitively expensive to the taxpayer, and it ensures that everyone has equal and fair access to the healthcare they need without regard to income and without worry about cost. What is so bad about this system?


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  3. #63
    Over 500 post club Morpheus's Avatar
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    Since Shaggy mentioned working in a hospital while blaming Obamacare for the ills of the world, my wife also worked out of a hospital system for 15 years, beginning in '99. Medical providers and hospitals have always whined about losing money, mostly while they are explaining why they couldn't afford wage increases, and even while in the process of massive, luxurious, expansion projects. Having said that, the increase in their present-day complaining began about 2002. This had nothing to do with Obamacare; it was, and is, due to the huge insurance corporations that negotiate rates with the providers. Notice I didn't say that they fixe those rates, but they negotiate them with the provider. Much like unions use their collective numbers to negotiate a better contract, insurance companies use collective bargaining to gain bargaining power, so providers cannot so readily overcharge. The question to ask is, if hospitals and doctors are losing money year after year, why are they still in business? And when it comes to cutting staff, they do it for the same reason all blood-sucking corporations do, to maximize profits. That's the same reason they schedule unnecessary procedures and surgeries, even when patient safety is put at risk.

    The problem is not UHC, it is the way we have blended it with our old for-profit corporate insurance system. Whenever health and human services are privatized the profit-motive comes into conflict with providing services, and the services suffer in order to increase profits. We should remove private insurance companies from the equation. Actually profit-driven hospitals are just as, if not more, dangerous. Instead of denying services, they push unnecessary, dangerous and expensive procedures for profit.
    "As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities."

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere."

    "The world embarrasses me, and I cannot dream that this watch exists and has no watchmaker."

    Voltaire

  4. #64
    Resident Rocket Surgeon rocketman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Er, the UK is not a "socialist" country RM.
    I agree it is a hybrid, we could safely call it social capitalism...I would be interested in what you call it.
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  5. #65
    Resident Rocket Surgeon rocketman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morpheus View Post
    You might just want to remove the Christian tag from your profile then.
    When you remove it from yours with your left wing leanings, support for Abortion/Murder? You left wingers love to support your Gay marriage...do you feel a moral obligation not to support politicians that support these things?



    Quote Originally Posted by Morpheus View Post
    The "goats" will believe that they are "saved", but they have deluded themselves. By ignoring and rejecting the needs of others you are ignoring and rejecting Jesus. If you don't love others enough to care for their physical and emotional needs, then you don't truly love Christ. If that isn't "moral obligation" enough for you then what is?
    Nice skew job on the qualifications to be a member of the BOC. Read the book again...what you have spewed here is not the Gospel nor is universal healthcare an object of the bible.
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  6. #66
    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    Pete, do you go to work for free? Or do you expect compensation for your service?
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

  7. #67
    Resident Rocket Surgeon rocketman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinark View Post
    "I'm a responsible person, I've got mine, me and my family are taken care of, screw everyone else"
    No, I take care of my own just as you should do for yours, I got mine because I payed a hefty sum for it so, I make no apologies. My taxes pay for the indigent as well but, I do not believe my obligation is to pay more than I do now so that you can say that their is some sort of fairness in it, or that we all get the same lesser health plan. Nothing is fair and anything good you have you will have to work hard for, just like everyone else, and if you want something better you will have to sacrifice & work even harder, it is just the way it is...
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  8. #68
    Over 1000 post club dreadknought's Avatar
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  9. #69
    Over 1500 post club lovemeorhateme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    Pete, do you go to work for free? Or do you expect compensation for your service?
    Of course not, I'm in paid employment; but I fail to see the relevance of that question to the subject of hand.


    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell

    Winner of TOL Post of the Year 2012

  10. #70
    Over 1500 post club lovemeorhateme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketman View Post
    No, I take care of my own just as you should do for yours, I got mine because I payed a hefty sum for it so, I make no apologies. My taxes pay for the indigent as well but, I do not believe my obligation is to pay more than I do now so that you can say that their is some sort of fairness in it, or that we all get the same lesser health plan. Nothing is fair and anything good you have you will have to work hard for, just like everyone else, and if you want something better you will have to sacrifice & work even harder, it is just the way it is...
    Everyone should take care of their own, on that we agree. But sometimes others fall ill and need help. We can let them suffer and do nothing, or we can set up a system which helps to prevent that suffering and ensure everyone, regardless of age or income can receive the health treatment they need. Which is more compassionate?


    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell

    Winner of TOL Post of the Year 2012

  11. #71
    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovemeorhateme View Post
    Everyone should take care of their own, on that we agree. But sometimes others fall ill and need help. We can let them suffer and do nothing, or we can set up a system which helps to prevent that suffering and ensure everyone, regardless of age or income can receive the health treatment they need. Which is more compassionate?
    Why do you think the only choices are do nothing and let others suffer or set up a heartless system to provide care to the people that are able to take advantage of it?
    Learn to read what is written.

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  12. #72
    Over 2000 post club shagster01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morpheus View Post
    Since Shaggy mentioned working in a hospital while blaming Obamacare for the ills of the world, my wife also worked out of a hospital system for 15 years, beginning in '99. Medical providers and hospitals have always whined about losing money, mostly while they are explaining why they couldn't afford wage increases, and even while in the process of massive, luxurious, expansion projects. Having said that, the increase in their present-day complaining began about 2002. This had nothing to do with Obamacare; it was, and is, due to the huge insurance corporations that negotiate rates with the providers. Notice I didn't say that they fixe those rates, but they negotiate them with the provider. Much like unions use their collective numbers to negotiate a better contract, insurance companies use collective bargaining to gain bargaining power, so providers cannot so readily overcharge. The question to ask is, if hospitals and doctors are losing money year after year, why are they still in business? And when it comes to cutting staff, they do it for the same reason all blood-sucking corporations do, to maximize profits. That's the same reason they schedule unnecessary procedures and surgeries, even when patient safety is put at risk.

    The problem is not UHC, it is the way we have blended it with our old for-profit corporate insurance system. Whenever health and human services are privatized the profit-motive comes into conflict with providing services, and the services suffer in order to increase profits. We should remove private insurance companies from the equation. Actually profit-driven hospitals are just as, if not more, dangerous. Instead of denying services, they push unnecessary, dangerous and expensive procedures for profit.
    I work for a non-profit health system.
    Having the right to do something does not automatically make it the right thing to do.

    Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814,

  13. #73
    Over 1500 post club This Charming Manc's Avatar
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    Its a mixed economy, I think all 'capitalist' economies really are, the point of the debate is proportions of the mix.

    Quote Originally Posted by rocketman View Post
    I agree it is a hybrid, we could safely call it social capitalism...I would be interested in what you call it.

  14. #74
    Over 1500 post club This Charming Manc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketman View Post
    When you remove it from yours with your left wing leanings, support for Abortion/Murder? You left wingers love to support your Gay marriage...do you feel a moral obligation not to support politicians that support these things?
    Not all left wingers are pro abort or pro gay marraiage

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by shagster01 View Post
    I work for a non-profit health system.


    those who work for non-profits
    Last edited by resodko; March 13th, 2015 at 02:06 PM.

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