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Thread: Other than glorification, what is the need for the Holy Spirit in the open view?

  1. #61
    TOL Subscriber musterion's Avatar
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    I made no assertion, I stated facts.

    Your view of salvation has God lying (a) about who He actually wants saved and (b) about who He allows the shed blood of Christ to atone for. That is the first point.

    The second point is that you rely on Gnostic knowledge of God's alleged secret will in order to believe the first. A foundational point of your religion -- TULIP --is that God secretly wants fewer people saved than the Bible says He does. TULIP makes Him a liar.

    These are facts.
    Last edited by musterion; March 17th, 2015 at 02:46 PM.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

  2. #62
    Does Whatever A Light-House Can Lighthouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianJOrr View Post
    You can't breathe unless you have lungs to breathe with;so it goes with a profession of faith--you must have the regenerated heart first.
    Scripture?


  3. The Following User Says Thank You to Lighthouse For Your Post:

    LoneStar (April 23rd, 2016)

  4. #63
    Journeyman BrianJOrr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Scripture?
    I made an analogy and backed it up with Scriptures. As of yet, no argument has been advanced using Scripture. I am just getting school-yard remarks.
    —Romans 11:36


    http://therantingreformer.com
    https://columbiaseminary.academia.edu/BrianOrr

  5. #64
    TOL Subscriber musterion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianJOrr View Post
    I am just getting school-yard remarks.
    Then they should be easy for you to answer and refute.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

  6. #65
    Journeyman BrianJOrr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    Then they should be easy for you to answer and refute.
    You have not refuted anything yet. I gave answers. You have not address my points with Scripture. Just saying 'wrong' is not a refutation.

    I am also still waiting for an OT to answer my post on John 6:64.
    —Romans 11:36


    http://therantingreformer.com
    https://columbiaseminary.academia.edu/BrianOrr

  7. #66
    TOL Subscriber musterion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianJOrr View Post
    You have not refuted anything yet. I gave answers. You have not address my points with Scripture. Just saying 'wrong' is not a refutation.

    I am also still waiting for an OT to answer my post on John 6:64.
    Your dodgeball is not up to the usual TOL drive-by standards. So one more time.

    How is God a just judge for condemning those who do exactly what He [allegedly] secretly predestined, while saying repeatedly that it's their fault?

    Or to hark back to your original analogy: How does God condemn specifically for not breathing those He refused to give lungs, and remain just?
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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    People do not go to hell because they reject the gospel. People go to hell because they are sinners and therefore God is just and righteous if every human being were to go into the lake of fire.
    The fact that God chose to save some by election doesn't make Him unjust, all after Adam were dead in trespasses and sins no one had the ability to save himself the act of salvation by election is completely the outworking of the grace of God and the love of God. God did not predestine the non elect to condemnation because we all at one point shared in this very same condemnation.

  9. #68
    TOL Subscriber musterion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    People do not go to hell because they reject the gospel.
    In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

  10. #69
    LIFETIME MEMBER Desert Reign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianJOrr View Post
    I am also still waiting for an OT to answer my post on John 6:64.
    Speaking for myself, I didn't see the point in engaging with you in any detail because you proved that you were either incapable or unwilling to deal with what I said at face value.
    You called me a liar for no other reason than that you could not accept what I said.
    I repeated what I said several times but still you refused to acknowledge it, all the time claiming that I said something else.
    I said that the main problem at issue was the idea of letting scripture interpret scripture. You said repeatedly and incorrectly that my issue was that Calvinists added their own presuppositions. That wasn't what I said.
    I said that my creed was deliberately non-doctrinaire because I wanted to focus on faith and relationship and then you asked me about my doctrine of the deity of Christ and how my creed differentiated between me and Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. You asked this question several times even though I had stated clearly that my creed was not intended to be doctrinaire.
    When I answered specifically about the deity of Christ, pointing out that the issue was one of relationship, i.e. my relationship with Jesus, how I worship him and so on, and not whether he was in substance God, you chose to completely misinterpret this as meaning that I held a doctrine of the deity of Christ and questioned me about that.
    And I warned you of how different the theology of openness was and you did not heed it, all the time seeking to know what my doctrines were and how I used scripture to establish doctrine (which you lied about in saying that I claimed to be without presuppositions) when all the time I said that I wasn't trying to establish doctrine at all.
    Is it a wonder, having treated me like this, that others are unwilling to deal with you?
    But please don't by any means imagine that I or other open theists are unable to answer your question about John 6:64. Indeed, I was quite astonished that you would claim that no one could analyse every verse of the Bible to harmonise it with their adopted theology. As if you were trying to claim that I as an open theist would be uncomfortable with some passages or even perhaps many. Don't get your hopes up. I can tell you that I am fully comfortable with every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. This is a great deal more than many of the reformed persuasion, who, unwilling to accept what the Bible says at face value in proper context, resort to all sorts of tricks and subterfuge, including claiming that some other text in the Bible 'clarifies' the matter or takes precedence, that it is anthropomorphism, that it is mystery or resorting to spurious references to original texts as if to blind your hearers with science or many other such devices to avoid confronting what the text says. And you end up being so blinded by your own doctrines, that you can no longer see the obvious.
    And that indeed is what has happened to you with John 6:64.
    Last edited by Desert Reign; March 17th, 2015 at 06:19 PM.
    Total Misanthropy.
    Uncertain salvation.
    Luck of the draw.
    Irresistible damnation.
    Persecution of the saints.

    Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.
    (The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

    RevTestament: It doesn't matter to me too much that the "New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.
    Dialogos: Calvin, as a sinner, probably got some things wrong.
    Brandplucked: I'm shocked that other people disagree with me.

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    The only sin that can condemn man for eternity is rejecting the gospel. However, these people are condemned before they hear it, and furthermore some indeed have lived and died having never once heard the gospel, not even one time. How is it that these individuals can be condemned for what they never heard?

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    TOL Subscriber musterion's Avatar
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    People do not go to hell because they reject the gospel.
    The only sin that can condemn man for eternity is rejecting the gospel.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCxrkl2igGY
    Last edited by musterion; March 17th, 2015 at 07:13 PM.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

  13. #72
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    Rejection of Yeshua will condemn for ever. Those who never heard the gospel are condemned anyway. And according to paul there was sufficient revelation of the nature of God in creation that had they responded to that revelation the gospel would have reached them. By default their failure to respond to the light they had will condemn them as the proof that had they heard the good news they would not have accepted it anyway.

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    Thus if hearing the Gospel and rejecting it is grounds for eternal damnation then the last thing to do is send out missionaries because that would be giving them the chance to damn themselves.

    No, mankind is condemned because of the sins of mankind. Salvation has come into the world and a minority of the masses of humanity shall be saved. The rest are not elected and were passed over. We don't need to question the word by trying to force right and wrong into God's work of election. We cannot know good and evil as fully as God does. That was the lie of the evil one.

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    TOL Subscriber musterion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    Those who never heard the gospel are condemned anyway.
    The only sin that can condemn man for eternity is rejecting the gospel.
    You're not digging fast enough. Want another shovel?
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    You're not digging fast enough. Want another shovel?

    I respect your right to be wrong bro

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