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Thread: Other than glorification, what is the need for the Holy Spirit in the open view?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianJOrr View Post
    Are those in here of a different sect within the open view?
    Sect?
    You mean like those that are Calvinists, but don't come to the same exact conclusions that other Calvinists come to?

    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
    They already know monsters exist.
    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    Banana raspberry
    Sounds like a really good milkshake!

    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
    They already know monsters exist.
    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

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    TOL Subscriber patrick jane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianJOrr View Post
    I have not seen much work regarding the doctrine of the Spirit in open-view circles. In fact, I don't recall seeing any real treatment whatsoever.

    So, do we really need the Spirit, according to the open view? Is the role of the Spirit different in the open view than in the classical or Reformed perspective?

    Is the Spirit needed for illumination and sanctification if our wills cannot be changed by the work of the Spirit? Sanctification is the process of our hearts and minds being conformed into that of Christ's. Fallen man's will is enslaved to sin. Paul says Christians minds are set on the Spirit because the Spirit of Christ dwells in us; those who set their mind on the flesh don't have the Spirit; therefore, they cannot submit to Gods law (Romans 8:7-9). The Spirit has to change our hearts, which are willed toward sin and hostile to God's law, in order to submit to the Lordship of Christ.

    Don't we pray for God, through the Spirit, to change the hearts of those who are lost in sin?

    That is what I pray for:

    "God please change the heart of . . . so that he can see your glorious Son; so that he sees his sin nature, which only desires to please his flesh, for he cannot submit to your way. Extend your grace to him Lord. Lord if it be your will, may you grant repentance to him (2 Tim. 2:25)."

    How do you pray as an open theist? I feel like as an open theist my prayers would be futile. I know that man only chooses evil continually (Gen. 6:5); therefore, as Jesus says after the rich young ruler turns away from the gift of eternal life, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God" (Mark 10:27). So, as an open theist, it seems like it would be absurd for me to think it was even possible for any man to be saved apart from the intervention of the Spirit. You can't expect a person to breathe unless he has lungs first. The Spirit gives lungs so that one can breathe and live.

    As a Calvinist, I know that because of God, there will be some saved. I would rather have my salvation in God's hands than in my own hands. Wouldn't you?

    If God cannot impress his will upon a free human being, removing the scales from his eyes, like Paul, and choose salvation in Christ, then who can be saved? Who will look to Christ without the Spirit and see him as glorious and supreme as he is?

    So really, other than the redemption of our bodies, do we really need the Holy Spirit in our lives, according to the open view?

    I look forward to your thoughts.

    Thanks
    there may be some open theists here that disregard the Holy Spirit, but i think you will find that every Christian knows the Holy Spirit is Of God. personally, i know God and the Spirit Are One and many here may agree. maybe you need the evolution- creation thread or urantia w/freelight - so YES, God Is Necessary ! ! ! -

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    Journeyman BrianJOrr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    there may be some open theists here that disregard the Holy Spirit, but i think you will find that every Christian knows the Holy Spirit is Of God. personally, i know God and the Spirit Are One and many here may agree. maybe you need the evolution- creation thread or urantia w/freelight - so YES, God Is Necessary ! ! ! -
    (Side note-Hey, I am glad you are using the real Patrick Jane image. Man, that show is awesome. I just found out about it 3 months ago. So, I've been watching all 6 seasons on Netflix. Just finished the last episode 2 days ago.)

    I guess my question sounds strange because the Spirit's role has been ana priori-cal belief of the Christian faith for two millennia. From what I have read in OV literature (i am going to refer to it because that is what I know) regarding its strong hold on libertarian free will and the belief that God does not violate a human's freedom, I don't see how OTs can hold that view in light of what the Scriptures teach us regarding the person and work of the Spirit. It's almost as if that hasn't been thought through yet by the thinkers of the view, hence (I guess) the reason why I have not seen any treatment of that subject. That is why I ask.

    Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Sect?
    You mean like those that are Calvinists, but don't come to the same exact conclusions that other Calvinists come to?
    Yes. I differ in certain areas from other Calvinists; however, the use of Calvinism has mostly been a buzzword for one who sees the doctrines of grace in the Scriptures. I would have to say that I think most who call themselves Calvinists, particularly the newbies, have never even read Calvin's Institutes, not realizing that they don't hold all the same views as he did (ecclesiology being a main difference; even on the atonement, which he doesn't explicitly say according to the TULIP acrostic associated with his name, and even predestination). For example, my church is Reformed in its soteriology and most doctrines that fall inline with Calvinism, but I am the only one who has read his entire Institutes (we have 190 people, with a dozen seminary folk and/or theo nerds).

    But, that is the interesting aspect of Reformed theology, which points to the consistency of that perspective with Scripture; we don't need Calvin's Institutes--the Scriptures clearly show us the Reformed perspective. Only a handful of people in my church even know who John Calvin is. They believe the historic teachings of the Reformed/Calvistic perspective because they clearly see them in the Scriptures, which are faithfully preached, expositionally, verse-by-verse by our pastors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianJOrr View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Sect?
    You mean like those that are Calvinists, but don't come to the same exact conclusions that other Calvinists come to?
    Yes. I differ in certain areas from other Calvinists;
    As do OTs.

    Will the real Calvinist please stand up?

    See how that works?

    It doesn't do much good to insists that Boyd, Pinnock, Sanders, and Rice are the real OTs, and everyone else is just a sect of OT.

    If you are going to argue against what OTs say here, then you need to know what OTs here say and argue against the individual points that the OTs here make instead of lumping them all together.

    Do you understand what I am saying?

    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
    They already know monsters exist.
    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianJOrr View Post
    I would have to say that I think most who call themselves Calvinists, particularly the newbies, have never even read Calvin's Institutes,
    No one needs to read Calvin's Institutes.
    Scripture is what they need to read.

    I am not saying that folks should not read Calvin's Institutes.
    I am just saying that it is not necessary.

    Likewise, no one needs to read the works of Boyd, Pinnock, Sanders, and Rice to come to an OT view.
    Those men are not the all in all of the OT view.
    One can come to the conclusion of OT without ever reading a word those men say.

    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
    They already know monsters exist.
    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post

    Do you understand what I am saying?
    Gotcha. I don't want to have a discussion with straw men, and want to have charitable interaction, not being offensive to OTs.

    I ask because I am wanting to discuss these issues with other OTs, other than the handful out there writing and advocating on the subject.

    Thanks
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    The omniscience of God means he knows everything simultaneously. Not just that he knows the future but that he knows all things at the same time

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianJOrr View Post

    Is the Spirit needed for illumination and sanctification if our wills cannot be changed by the work of the Spirit?
    Not all men in scripture that had the Spirit made the right choices.

    King Saul comes to mind.

    I don't think we can place the Holy Spirit into a cookie cutter mentality.

    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
    They already know monsters exist.
    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Not all men in scripture that had the Spirit made the right choices.



    King Saul comes to mind.



    I don't think we can place the Holy Spirit into a cookie cutter mentality.

    Saved people in OT did not have the Holy Spirit in them

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    TOL Subscriber musterion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianJOrr View Post
    Well, if man ultimately chooses God, then man can un-choose him, and God can only let him go, for he won't violate his free-willed decision.
    What is the Gospel?

    I ask because your statement indicates a very low view, if not outright ignorance, of what Paul says God does in, to and for the believer upon faith in Christ.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
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    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    What is the Gospel?

    I ask because your statement indicates a very low view, if not outright ignorance, of what Paul says God does in, to and for the believer upon faith in Christ.
    1. Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (We are spiritually lost)

    2. Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (We deserve to be punished for our sin)

    3. Romans 5:8 - but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Gods invitation for a relationship)

    4. Titus 3:5 - He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. (No personal actions can save)

    5. Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Salvation is a gift)

    6. Romans 10: 9 - because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (How to respond to receive Christ)

    7. 2 Cor. 5:21 - For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (Gospel in one verse)
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    What is the Gospel?

    I ask because your statement indicates a very low view, if not outright ignorance, of what Paul says God does in, to and for the believer upon faith in Christ.
    The portion you quoted of me is a reductio ad absurdum remark I was making. I was trying to argue from an OT position, to try and make the connection from their point of view in regards to my question.
    Last edited by BrianJOrr; March 12th, 2015 at 04:04 PM.
    由omans 11:36


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    But you were not arguing from the OT position, at least not as I understand it. Though I understand and consider some of their points valid and part-way compelling, I do not consider myself OT. Yet even I know enough about them to know you were very likely arguing from the mouth of a strawman.

    The absurdist view you lampooned is held by most on TOL...pentecostals, legalists and various cultists. Just ask them. But I know of no OT here on TOL who believes as you purported. If they do, I will stand corrected but I will let THEM correct me. And you.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
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    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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