Thanks Bob

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Turbo

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S†ephen;1607485 said:
You think that:

But so I think it certainly is a crime. But I also understand the difficulties. I think when you're talking about third trimester deliberate abortion and partial birth abortions, I mean, there has to be a criminal penalty for the person that's committing that crime. But I really think it's the person who commits the crime. And I think that is the abortionist.

is sad?

I don't follow.

It's simple:

Someone who hires a hitman is just as guilty as the hitman himself.


Do you think that when a person hires a hitman, that only the hitman should be charged with a crime?


Also, it doesn't matter what how old (i.e. which trimester) the murder victim is, and it doesn't matter what method the hitman uses to make the kill.
 

Ktoyou

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It should never "be up to discretion" whether or not it's ok to kill an innocent baby.

Right, when a woman is pregnant she becomes two; this is a gift women have, we are two at times and if one murders one of us, they are murders, even if we agree.
 

Granite

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The issue is federalism or its rejection, and conservatives have finally become what they beheld: when in doubt, solve a problem with more big government.
 

S†ephen

New member
It's simple:

Someone who hires a hitman is just as guilty as the hitman himself.


Do you think that when a person hires a hitman, that only the hitman should be charged with a crime?


Also, it doesn't matter what how old (i.e. which trimester) the murder victim is, and it doesn't matter what method the hitman uses to make the kill.

Who pulls the trigger?

Kevin supports killing homosexuals. Does that make him guilty of murdering one?
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
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Who pulls the trigger?

Kevin supports killing homosexuals. Does that make him guilty of murdering one?
:bang:

He supports the re-criminalization of homosexuality. And he supports it being a capital crime [death penalty]. That would be legal execution, not murder. How many times do we have to repeat that before it get's through your thick skull into your tiny, little brain?
 

Turbo

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LIFETIME MEMBER
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It's simple:

Someone who hires a hitman is just as guilty as the hitman himself.


Do you think that when a person hires a hitman, that only the hitman should be charged with a crime?


Also, it doesn't matter what how old (i.e. which trimester) the murder victim is, and it doesn't matter what method the hitman uses to make the kill.
Who pulls the trigger?
Are you actually saying that you think it should be legal to hire someone to commit a crime on your behalf?
 

Turbo

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The issue is federalism or its rejection, and conservatives have finally become what they beheld: when in doubt, solve a problem with more big government.
You recognize that abortion is murder, don't you?

If some local municipalities in Germany decided to legalize and regulate the slaughter of Jews, would you oppose German's federal government from intervening?

When did it become out-of-bounds for the United States government to uphold its own Constitution? "No person shall be... deprived of life... without due process."

Why do you States' Rights folks base your arguments on states' supposed right to do thing like allowing the murder of the unborn and the ownership of blacks?
 

Granite

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You recognize that abortion is murder, don't you?

If some local municipalities in Germany decided to legalize and regulate the slaughter of Jews, would you oppose German's federal government from intervening?

When did it become out-of-bounds for the United States government to uphold its own Constitution? "No person shall be... deprived of life... without due process."

Why do you States' Rights folks base your arguments on states' supposed right to do thing like allowing the murder of the unborn and the ownership of blacks?

Yeah, Turbo, I do. You know that full well.

The Nazi Germany comparison--which always, but always, seems to come up in this discussion--is a clever red herring, but is also completely inaccurate, completely misleading, and, in this case, wholly inappropriate. Let's say this one last time, and hopefully square this away: the murder of the American unborn and the Holocaust are apples and oranges. It is my hope that for once we can stay on topic and not have to waste time with the Third Reich non-sequitar. There is next to no analogy that can be made between the Final Solution and the American abortion tragedy without one twisting facts to suit an emotional, hyperbolic agenda.

We are dealing with a top-down judicial hijack of states rights following Roe, a decision that fundamentally violated laws upheld by the majority of states in the union in 1973. It is my fear, given the brutal nature of the debate, the emotionalism involved, and the Pandora's Box that has been opened, that this country will never be completely free of abortion. Reduced? Yes. Rare? Hopefully. Gone for good and eradicated? Doubtful. Doubtful because when life is cheap, and when people are desperate or lazy or manipulated or misled, life can be eliminated just as cheaply. We crossed a cultural point of no return in 1973, and we must do what we can to restore what damage has been wrought. Maybe in time I'll be proven wrong. I don't want to be right this time.

But restoring a catastrophic violation of life, limb, and liberty does not start by empowering the federal government with greater autonomy, power, and control. Never has, never will. When it comes to this issue, you guys readily admit, in so many words, that the ends justify the means. What you, and Kevin, and others want to do is trust the same system that removed personhood in the first place to restore it. I'm not sure if you guys are desperate, naive, impatient, pragmatic, or possibly a blend of all four. On the one hand you decry any federal intrusion into the pet personal liberties you advocate, and shrilly oppose the violation of your own sensitivities and freedoms (as you should). Yet on the other you eagerly insist that the same intrusive, nanny state, overbearing, smothering federal government be trusted with the task of making sure abortion is illegalized nationwide in the United States. It's this kind of political and intellectual schizophrenia that has frozen the pro-life movement and kept its progress static since at least the late 1980s.

Slavery, since you mentioned it, was a practice already opposed by the majority of the states that would have with time died a natural death--as opposed to the decidedly unnatural death of over half a million Americans emancipation required thanks to the stubbornness of God-fearing southerners. The refusal of pro-lifers to entertain a willingness to work step by step, piece by piece, state by state, betrays a frustration and exasperation at the very hard, real, grassroots work that ending abortion demands. You would have us run to Uncle Sam hoping we get lucky--at least for a little while, till the next gang of goons overturns the work done by their predecessors. I would say to hell with Uncle Sam in the first place: it was his court that sank us into this mess originally. We, the people, have it within our power to end this atrocity the black cloaked tyrants spawned. You would prefer we ask the fed for a favor and blessing. I recall the words of a certain vitriolic senator from Arizona, and leave you with a paraphrase: A government big enough to declare your personhood is big enough to take it away.
 

S†ephen

New member
Are you actually saying that you think it should be legal to hire someone to commit a crime on your behalf?

No. I'm saying remember who does the killing. Yes the mother consents just as much as the person hiring a hitman. But the mother isn't the one performing the abortion and the guy who hired the hitman isn't the one pulling the trigger.

i agree that she is guilty.

Ron Paul was asked a question that (under the system he proposes) he himself could not answer. It was up to the states that way someone could do SOMETHING about abortion which right now we can't.
 

PKevman

New member
S†ephen;1608219 said:
Who pulls the trigger?

Kevin supports killing homosexuals. Does that make him guilty of murdering one?

Actually you are mistating my position completely Stephen Dale. I don't support anyone killing homosexuals right now because it isn't a capital crime right now. I think it SHOULD BE a capital crime and far less lives would be destroyed in a number of different ways that they have been destroyed since our society began accepting that wicked and destructive deathstyle as being "normal".

It is not murder if the government puts to death a capital criminal. Even your dad agreed to some limited form of the death penalty, thereby refuting your own position that it's murder for a government to put a capital criminal to death.

C'mon Stephen Dale, we've already been down these roads before, do you really want to go down them again?
 

S†ephen

New member
Actually you are mistating my position completely Stephen Dale. I don't support anyone killing homosexuals right now because it isn't a capital crime right now. I think it SHOULD BE a capital crime and far less lives would be destroyed in a number of different ways that they have been destroyed since our society began accepting that wicked and destructive deathstyle as being "normal".

It is not murder if the government puts to death a capital criminal. Even your dad agreed to some limited form of the death penalty, thereby refuting your own position that it's murder for a government to put a capital criminal to death.

C'mon Stephen Dale, we've already been down these roads before, do you really want to go down them again?

So it is ok if a person with a badge kills someone who never harmed them?
 

PKevman

New member
S†ephen;1608928 said:
So it is ok if a person with a badge kills someone who never harmed them?

Do you have a problem with people with badges? I happen to have been blessed to have known a few cops and they've been good people who put their lives on the line every night.
I attended Bible college with such a man and developed a good friendship with this brother who was attending solely for the purpose of learning more about God and His Word and being able to share as a layman in his church.

Why do you constantly focus your argument on a person with a badge?

A few things to think about:

1. If a person with a badge who's been sworn to uphold the law comes across an individual who is beating a two year old child to death, he has every right to use force to stop that person up to and including taking their life if necessary. Would you agree with that? So then it's ok for a person with a badge to take the life of another person who didn't harm him. (Unless you disagree of course, but then I'd really like to know your justification).

2. When a murderer is executed it is rarely by a person with a badge incidentally, so would you like to retract your argument or are you trying to argue two things at once?

3. Your thinking on this is all wrong, and should be on what does God think and not what does Stephen Dale or Mr. Kevin or your dad think. Stephen Dale, Mr. Kevin, and your dad could all be wrong. God is not wrong. I believe God knows what is best for how a country and a criminal justice system should be run. Do you think that He does?

Was God justified to order the death penalty for those who in His eyes should be put to death? Or do you think He had it wrong?

This whole thing came about because you are avoiding the implications of Ron Paul's stated position and in the process you mistated my position and I clarified it.

When an abortion doctor puts an innocent baby to death who has committed no crime, done no evil, and been convicted of no wrong-THAT is evil and it's murder and it's wrong!

When a criminal justice system puts to death a wicked person who commits a capital crime that is NOT evil, it is a good thing for society and as history has given replete examples of acts as a deterrent.
 
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