ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

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lee_merrill

lee_merrill

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patman said:
No. No gaps in the Genalogy. It simply doesn't contain the entire nation's family tree.
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Well, assertions will not do here, how is my argument wrong? There are clearly not enough generations given from X to Y, this is not about listing or not listing every member in other branches.

There is no gap from Levi to Moses.
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But if there are gaps right after this it seems likely (as Lon posted based on Keil and Delitzsch's comment) that there are gaps elsewhere.

Blessings,
Lee
 
RobE

RobE

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godrulz said:
A holy God opposes evil as contrary to His will. Jesus came to resist and destroy sin, sickness, evil, etc. The lake of fire is judgment on evil doers. If he condoned it, he would not pour out His wrath, but would let everyone in heaven.
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Then why doesn't He stop evil? It can't be for a greater purpose from open theism's perspective.

You underestimate the significance of irrevocable freedom and the risk God takes in order to have love relationships. He did not desire nor intend the Fall. When it happened it grieved Him.
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Then why didn't He kill Adam and begin again?

I can't believe your basic assumptions are so flawed. No wonder your conclusions are also off.
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Maybe we define condone differently. I would say that if someone allows an evil and has the power to stop it, then the person condones it. Otherwise, the person would stop it. What's the flaw in this basic assumption?
 
RobE

RobE

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patman said:
If we could hook up an ordinary man up to a lie detector, and asked him a question about his plans, the lie detector could tell us if he lied. If we asked him "Do you think this is True or False: Worms have 10 hearts. " and he answered "I think it is false," the lie detector would do one of two things, flag a lie, or flag for truth. The truth is, they do have 10 hearts, did he lie?
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First of all, God is not a man. Second, I would submit to you that if God was taking the test and answered saying, "All worms have nine hearts"; then you would have trouble finding a worm in existence with more or less than exactly nine hearts. You see, God is God. I have scripture that supports this.....

Genesis 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.​

God's words have authority and power. Scripture is some of His words, but not all. Did God lie to us because some of His words remain unwritten?

What makes a lie? If the man had actually thought it was true yet answered false, then that makes it a lie.
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2 Kings 20:1 In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the LORD: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.’”​

Is Hezekiah dead?

Either way doesn't matter, the slavery actually was only about 250 years. You should prove that wrong instead of the plea for me to be ignorant, or hope that for some reason God rounded 30 years down..
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It's a non-issue. Atheist's have argued with Christians about this forever. I think that you would be wise to accept the words of the other figures in the Bible who've supported this number. I haven't, nor will I do the math.

This point is one of many I hope to go through with those on this thread. It is merely evidence among others. It shows how Settled Theology makes God out to be lying about this one thing (which one lie is more than scripture allows, God does not lie).
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Maybe you could start with this one....

John 17:12 'While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction' so that Scripture would be fulfilled.​

Was Jesus lying when He said the Scripture would be fulfilled?
Was Jesus lying when He said Judas was doomed to destruction?

If not, how did Jesus know future free will acts?
 
RobE

RobE

New member
Philetus said:
There is a glaring exception however. In his book Revolution (which has cost him dearly in traditional church circles where before this book his every word and poll became 'scripture') George Barna points to the grass roots Jesus movements in the West as the only places where real numerical growth is taking place.

Another example is China. Underground yet phenomenal growth.

I'm 100% for the church. Just not the kind of church in Sardis with a reputation of being alive, but is dead.
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The Roman Catholic Church remains the largest Christian church and is currently growing the fastest. Are you Catholic?

I think you have your head in the sand. :sigh: The polarization IS NOT between Tradition and Postmodernism, IT IS between Tradition and Truth. And because in so many traditional churches tradition is winning, the CHURCH is not growing. The postmodern world isn't even listening. You yourself said to GR that just responding to an alter call isn't necessarily 'church growth' and I would add neither is increasing attendance in our buildings.
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The polarization is, as always, between truth and deception. 2000 years of Christians seeking for, and finding, truth through study and revelation shouldn't be cast away on a whim. Who cares if the world is rejecting the truth? Are we entertaining the planet so they'll be our pals?

Too much Star Trek, Matrix, and other such nonsense affects your thinking, Philetus. Simple ideas like "freedom of choice" which pervades your mind are the trademark of those who would kill unborn children. "Freedom of action" proclaimed by the homosexual to flaunt his perversion to our children is the same as your hallmark. "Freedom, freedom, freedom", cries the modernist, Christian(?) and Pagan alike! Whitehead is the father of process thought and a prophet of modernism alike. He declares the future unknowable and so those who believe Whitehead must in turn scream from the highest heights, "The future is evolving, man is evolving, and God is evolving simultaneously === through undiscovered knowledge and experience!"

Take me back to the dark ages when divorce, usury, witchcraft, satan worship, and heresy were illegal. That was the age of enlightenment when compared to today! To me, this was a virtual paradise when I look upon today's standards(or lack of).

Nang says, "Bah!"; and I vehemently agree.

Postmodernism is not a threat to Truth. But it is playing havoc on our cherished traditions. Tradition for the sake of tradition is deadly. Tradition for the sake of truth can be healthy. The question we are facing is: Which is it?
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Truth.

Rob Mauldin

p.s. Nang, sorry for taking words out of your mouth.:plain:
 
Lon

Lon

Well-known member
themuzicman said:
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html about 2.1 Billion Christians world wide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant 590 million Protestants​

And many of those protestants aren't Calvinist, including Methodists, Wesleyans, Anglicans, etc.

So, to say that Calvinism somehow has some validity because of it's popularity isn't going to work.

Michael
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Both Anglicans and Catholics would fall under a form of Calvinism actually (also EO).

Remember OSAS is not a Calvinist doctrine.
 
patman

patman

Active member
Lon said:
I'm sorry Patman. I have been trying. Let me try once more here.

I do think the Hebrew language lesson is important. I'll hit a few points in hopes that you pick up on what we have been trying to say and possibly something will finally connect.

From the article:

"There are at least 3 possible solutions to the problem of the Length of Israel's Sojourn (wanderings)."

In the discussion, they mention your work and stance as one possiblity.



The man who holds this view says that Genesis 15:13 must include sojourning in Caanan as it was not their land and that the Egyptian slavery reference isn't specific to the 400+ year sojourning on the whole, but a part of the prophecy.

In effect, Abraham's offspring would wander 400 years and spend 'part' of that 'wandering' stuck in Egypt.

Specifically, he points out that the Hebrew language can support either assertation and it is not necessary to be staunch on a 400 year enslavement in Egypt. It can be taken as meaning sojourning for 400 years as well.

For further support he points to the Samaritan's writings where the latter is specifically interpreted this way in understanding so that it is reasonable to suspect how the Hebrew text was understood (it renders both the time sojourning in Caanan and sojourning in Egypt).

Further monkey's in the wrench:

Keil and Delitzsch, Very respected scholars in Hebrew language and commentary, suggest it would be nearly impossible to actually calculate the years in the first place because nonessential patriarchs are often omitted from Hebrew time lines.

Of course, after this the article goes into other views, one being they were actually in bondage in Egypt for the full 400 years, but we are just looking at your scenario.

Because it cannot be certain what specifically the 400 years are applied to in the Hebrew language, it can be rendered either as to the Egyptian slavery or the complete time wandering of which Abraham's offspring would take part.

So it would be very difficult to assertain a 'lie' or mistake based on the text alone.


I hope this illuminates what you've been asking for here.


Blessings in His Word.
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Thanks for that Lon,

I still cannot agree with this. Scripture puts the 400 years of affliction (and 'service') together, and does not number the actual years of wandering.

It seems clear that you have found an answer that is good enough for you, but I still assert it is not the answer. It is simply an answer that allows you (and AMR) to continue in your theology.

I think the verse is pretty clear and requires no explanations, it only needs explination and reconfiguring if you are of the settled theology. Do you see why I would say that?
 
patman

patman

Active member
lee_merrill said:
Well, assertions will not do here, how is my argument wrong? There are clearly not enough generations given from X to Y, this is not about listing or not listing every member in other branches.


But if there are gaps right after this it seems likely (as Lon posted based on Keil and Delitzsch's comment) that there are gaps elsewhere.

Blessings,
Lee
Click to expand...

Lee,

As I told Lon, the only reason you want to assert there are gaps is because you have an agenda to keep your theology. So you must "add" that some how there is a gap in Moses' genealogy.

I wish it bothered you, or that at least you realized you were doing this for your theology's sake. Long ago I broke off from settled theology, and have found it problematic in light of scripture for these reasons.
 
patman

patman

Active member
RobE said:
First of all, God is not a man. Second, I would submit to you that if God was taking the test and answered saying, "All worms have nine hearts"; then you would have trouble finding a worm in existence with more or less than exactly nine hearts. You see, God is God. I have scripture that supports this.....

Genesis 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.​

God's words have authority and power. Scripture is some of His words, but not all. Did God lie to us because some of His words remain unwritten?



2 Kings 20:1 In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the LORD: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.’”​

Is Hezekiah dead?



It's a non-issue. Atheist's have argued with Christians about this forever. I think that you would be wise to accept the words of the other figures in the Bible who've supported this number. I haven't, nor will I do the math.



Maybe you could start with this one....

John 17:12 'While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction' so that Scripture would be fulfilled.​

Was Jesus lying when He said the Scripture would be fulfilled?
Was Jesus lying when He said Judas was doomed to destruction?

If not, how did Jesus know future free will acts?
Click to expand...

Rob, If we can't get Genesis straight, what makes you think we can jump to John?

Rob, I appreciate you're love for God, but you obviously don't want to learn from me. You can't even get the lesson out of the simple analogy I gave you. It happens every time.

No matter what tactic I try to communicate with you, you either change the subject, or you twist my words into things they are not.

I honestly do not know what else say. Even when I thought you agreed with me, you turned around and started arguing again. What else can I add?
 
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patman said:
Thanks for that Lon,

I still cannot agree with this. Scripture puts the 400 years of affliction (and 'service') together, and does not number the actual years of wandering.

It seems clear that you have found an answer that is good enough for you, but I still assert it is not the answer. It is simply an answer that allows you (and AMR) to continue in your theology.

I think the verse is pretty clear and requires no explanations, it only needs explination and reconfiguring if you are of the settled theology. Do you see why I would say that?
Click to expand...
Huh? So scholarly treatment of the verse reviewed by Lon with you shows something different than what you simply "think" and that is that? These scholars, Lon, and myself, are co-conspirators all working continue a theology you disagree with? :doh:

From the original language, the verse (Gen. 15:13) is structured as an introversion:

1 Thy seed shall be a stranger…etc.
zzzzzz2 and shall serve them
zzzzzz2 and they shall afflict them
1 four hundred years

For 1 the whole sojourning and duration is in view.
For 2 the servitude is in view

In Exodus 12:40, the epitrechon parenthetical is similarly evident:
"Now the sojourning of the children of Israel (who dwelt in Egypt), was 430 years."

The "sojourning" started with Gen. 12:1, and is quite a different subject from the "dwelling" in Egypt.

Two calculations are used for the sojourning:
1. starting from the promise to Abraham (Ex. 12:40; Gal. 3:14, 17)
2. starting with the recognition of his "seed" (Isaac) (Gen. 21:12; Acts 7:6; Gen. 15:13)

You don't have to agree. You can call it all a vast conspiracy. A plot out to malign patman, etc. I just call it biblical scholarship.
 
Lon

Lon

Well-known member
So as to not detract from that conversation and AMR's treatment of the language, I've deleted my response for the importance of the truths both above and below.
 
Lon

Lon

Well-known member
patman said:
Lee,

As I told Lon, the only reason you want to assert there are gaps is because you have an agenda to keep your theology. So you must "add" that some how there is a gap in Moses' genealogy.

I wish it bothered you, or that at least you realized you were doing this for your theology's sake. Long ago I broke off from settled theology, and have found it problematic in light of scripture for these reasons.
Click to expand...

Oh man, with a post like this I think we are done. If the only reason I've been discussing with you has been to entrench with 'an agenda to keep [my] theology' and I'm having to 'add' then what are we doing? Are you really pitting your view up against Hebrew and Greek scholars? Are you really throwing this work up against PhD's and saying it is so obvious they are wrong and you are correct?

Before I sound too much like a brainwashed traditionalist here, let me tell you that I have classical training in their schools and I was awed. Dr. Mitchell could literally quote chapter and verse with references from the whole Bible. Dr. Brake became the president of the Bible study institute in Israel. Dr. Edward Goodrick is responsible for working on the NIV and NASB as a lead translator. He didn't use an English Bible for his lectures but translated as he taught from Hebrew and Greek. Dr. Congdon was one of the top IQ's registered with Mensa. Dr. Cook was a missionary for 30+ years before taking the missions department. Many of these men have moved on or have since gone to glory but they were my teachers. My professors.

Patman, do you realize what you are doing or trying to do?
 
Philetus

Philetus

New member
"The world is full of people whose notion of a satisfactory future is, in fact, a return to an idealized past."
Robertson Davies​

If it is back to the dark ages ... some people don't have far to go. If it is back to the future ... we are there.


Bob Dylan's prophetic word to the church
(and everybody else for that matter) :WA:

Come gather round people
Wherever you roam,
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown.
You'll be drenched to the bone,
If your time to you
Is worth savin',
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.
Bob Dylan​

'Postmodern preachers don't populate the pews; they connect people to the living Christ. Postmodern evangelism doesn't say to the world," Come to church." Rather, it says to the church, "Go to the world." It recognizes that 'God is already at work in peoples lives before we arrived on the scene, and that our role is to help people see how God is present and active in their lives, calling them home. It is not I have Jesus and you don't. How can I get you here so that I can give you my Jesus? But rather you already know Jesus. How can I help you see and know what you already know [more fully] so I can meet and know your Jesus? (Leonard Sweet. 1999: 54).'​

The future is no longer what it once was while the Gospel is the same as it was 2000 years ago. Jesus comes and is still rejected by some. Sometimes more recent traditions only masquerade as truth when in fact they only suppress the truth about God.

Change or die.

Philetus
 
themuzicman

themuzicman

Well-known member
I've never made a claim based upon the fact that a a large portion of the church agrees with me. A Calvinist tried that, and was slapped down.

Muz
 
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