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Thread: Is Bob Enyart's Argument Self Contradicting?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chatmaggot View Post
    Your provided quotes contradict your own conclusion.

    Follow this:

    Knight stated...

    You then replied...

    But the quotes you provide say...

    Can't you see the self-contradictory nature in the statements? You highlighted the portion of your quotes that said God is not responsible for sin...I highlighted those that say that He is.

    Your own quotes substantiate Knight's initial statement.

    The quotes you provided state God has ordained everything and decreed everything that will ever come to pass...but then state that doesn't mean God is responsible for what comes to pass.

    This should be an example of madness.
    It's an example of a lot of things, and madness is one of them.


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    Isaiah 46:10-11 is exemplary of the Scriptural teachings of the divine foreknowledge of God:

    Declaring the end from the beginning,
    -Makes officially (not qualifiably) known everything

    And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
    -God's knowledge of things to come not yet done-the future

    Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,
    -God not subject to other's for His will

    [i]Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
    -God ordains Cyrus to deliver His people from the Chaldeans; Cyrus has no libertarian free will to do otherwise; Cyrus, living in a land far from Babylon knew nothing of God's people in Babylon, yet God will use Him to fulfill His secret will.

    Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.
    -Words spoken by God through the prophet would indeed certainly occur. He decreed it. He will make it happen. He had a reason for it. He does it. While God has much in His purposes that are not in His prophecies, God has nothing in His prophecies other than His purposes. God does not say, "I will see to it that it happens", God says, "I will do it".

    We read in 1 Peter 3:17: “For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.” The underlined “if” clause is a first-class condition in the Greek, a grammatical construction that bespeaks a condition according to fact. We could just as easily translate this phrase “since God wills it so”.

    Does anyone think Cyrus was not held accountable for his actions even in light of the above?

    The sovereignty of God in His eternal decree is what establishes the liberty and contingency of second causes. In other words, without the context of God's eternal decree, we would have no freedom to choose; nothing would come to pass because of something else happening first. Nothing would exist. But if we can think of something existing, it would be random chaos.

    It is God's decree that establishes volition and causation. Your choices, then, can be real and genuinely yours only in the context of God's decree. Because God is the creator and you are a creature, God upholds you and sustains you in being every moment: that also means he can determine everything that comes to pass, without needing to override your choices or the chain of causality. Part of God's decree is to make you and preserve you as a rational, volitional creature: one who makes decisions and exercises his will. God's decree then holds you up precisely in that capacity. God as the Creator doesn't need to offer violence to any part of his creation to cause it to do his will: God above everyone knows how it works, and can sovereignly and certainly steer it to its proper goal without coercion. God wills righteously what men do wickedly as morally free agents.

    God has decreed everything, even the smallest detail. Nothing is outside the scope of his decree. But though nothing happens without God's decree, that decree does not operate in the same way in every respect. This is where there is a difference between effecting and permitting: not that anything is uncertain, but that God permits actions to be sinful; he does not effect the sinfulness of the action, even though he brings about the action as such. Most are more interested in how God can pull this off versus that God is capable of so doing. The confused reason finitely and import this finite reason into their notions of the nature of God, refusing to accept God is infinitely far above in nature to the nature of His creatures. Unless every aspect of the mind of God is fully apprehended, the confused simply refuse to accept the plain teachings of Scripture on this matter all the while ignoring Scripture's teachings that God cannot and will not be subjected to the finite notions of His creatures. In fact in every instance in Scripture where man has attempted to do so, he has been met with God's declarations of His transcendence over His creation.

    Spurgeon said it humanly best:


    “There is no attribute of God more comforting to his children than the doctrine of Divine Sovereignty. Under the most adverse circumstances, in the most severe troubles, they believe that Sovereignty has ordained their afflictions, that Sovereignty overrules them, and that Sovereignty will sanctify them all.

    There is nothing for which the children of God ought more earnestly to contend than the dominion of their Master over all creation—the kingship of God over all the works of his own hands—the throne of God, and his right to sit upon that throne.

    On the other hand, there is no doctrine more hated by worldlings, no truth of which they have made such a football, as the great, stupendous, but yet most certain doctrine of the Sovereignty of the infinite Jehovah. Men will allow God to be everywhere except on his throne.

    They will allow him to be in his workshop to fashion worlds and to make stars. They will allow him to be in his almonry to dispense his alms and bestow his bounties. They will allow him to sustain the earth and bear up the pillars thereof, or light the lamps of heaven, or rule the waves of the ever-moving ocean;

    but when God ascends his throne, his creatures then gnash their teeth; and when we proclaim an enthroned God, and his right to do as he wills with his own, to dispose of his creatures as he thinks well, without consulting them in the matter, then it is that we are hissed and execrated, and then it is that men turn a deaf ear to us, for God on his throne is not the God they love.

    They love him anywhere better than they do when he sits with his sceptre in his hand and his crown upon his head.”

    AMR
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    We read in 1 Peter 3:17: “For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.” The underlined “if” clause is a first-class condition in the Greek, a grammatical construction that bespeaks a condition according to fact. We could just as easily translate this phrase “since God wills it so”.
    if
    a supposition; uncertain possibility

    used 993 times in the old testament
    used 602 times in the new testament

    Isaiah 46:10-11 is exemplary of the Scriptural teachings of the divine foreknowledge of God:
    Joh 7:6 Jesus said to them, "My time has not yet come, but your time is always here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    if
    a supposition; uncertain possibility

    used 993 times in the old testament
    used 602 times in the new testament
    No. Such is the error of simply relying upon word searches to derive proper grammatical usages of Biblical languages. Sigh. Do a search on the word "love" and then try to make a similar broad generalization as you have made for the word "if". Many types of "love" just as there are many types of "if". Just sayin'.

    If you do not have good facility with the Biblical languages, at least get access to a good lexicon, e.g., BDAG, as a starting point. And, no, Thayer-Smith (incl. derivatives for KJV/NASB), Brown-Driver-Biggs-Gesenious, Strong's ("if it is Strong's it must be wrong"), Nave's, and most of those freely available online will not do.

    AMR
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    would you explain this verse

    Joh 7:6 Jesus said to them, "My time has not yet come, but your time is always here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    It doesn't even phase you that Calvinists had to make up a word to reconcile their contradictions?
    Compatible is not a made up word.

    But this is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse
    Snardblot!


    Moron.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse
    You don't have any clue as to why God allows these things, do you?
    Yes, Ephesians 1:11. Open Theists, on the other hand, can't affirm that God works all things according to the council of His will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse
    In the settled view God made The Fall happen.
    Wrong.

    "Reformed theology has maintained consistently that Scripture teaches God’s exhaustive sovereignty and human responsibility. God does not cause evil. In fact, God does not force anyone to do anything against his or her will. And yet, nothing lies outside of the wise, loving, good, and just plan “of him who works all things after the council of his own will” (Eph 1:11). That God’s sovereignty and human responsibility are true, no serious student of Scripture can deny. (From "Is God a Moral Monster, "White Horse Inn")


    Do you ever get tired of pushing down straw men?


    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse
    The open view doesn't have a problem with God allowing these things to happen; because we understand that it was necessary for Him to allow it. We know why.
    So you agree that Enyart's objections to Calvinism is really disingenuous, right?

    And you don't know why, but it will be entertaining to see you try and tell us why, so go ahead, you know you want to.



    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse
    Calvinism says God made it happen through predestination which makes Him directly responsible for the evil acts themselves rather than responsible simply for allowing them to happen.
    Wrong.

    Calvinism says that God predestined to allow them to happen which maintains both God's sovereignty and human responsibility.
    αξιον εστιν το αρνιον
    Worthy is the Lamb

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    Quote Originally Posted by chatmaggot
    Can't you see the self-contradictory nature in the statements?
    No, because they aren't self contradictory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chatmaggot
    The quotes you provided state God has ordained everything and decreed everything that will ever come to pass...
    Yes, but as AMR has already said, probably ad nauseum on these boards, God does not ordain everything the same way.

    There are some things that God ordains to bring to pass and some things that God ordains to allow.

    Incidentally, even in Open Theism God ordains everything and decrees everything that will come to pass. That which an omnipotent being can prevent, but doesn't, He decrees and ordains.
    αξιον εστιν το αρνιον
    Worthy is the Lamb

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dialogos View Post
    Compatible is not a made up word.
    No, but "compatabilism" is.

    But this is...

    Inside joke.

    Moron.


    Yes, Ephesians 1:11. Open Theists, on the other hand, can't affirm that God works all things according to the council of His will.
    I affirm it every day of my life.

    Wrong.

    "Reformed theology has maintained consistently that Scripture teaches God’s exhaustive sovereignty and human responsibility. God does not cause evil. In fact, God does not force anyone to do anything against his or her will. And yet, nothing lies outside of the wise, loving, good, and just plan “of him who works all things after the council of his own will” (Eph 1:11). That God’s sovereignty and human responsibility are true, no serious student of Scripture can deny. (From "Is God a Moral Monster, "White Horse Inn")
    Was The Fall God's plan or not?

    Do you ever get tired of pushing down straw men?
    It's funny you call it a straw man but your words can never burn it down.

    So you agree that Enyart's objections to Calvinism is really disingenuous, right?
    No, idiot.

    And you don't know why, but it will be entertaining to see you try and tell us why, so go ahead, you know you want to.
    Tell you what? Why God allows evil? Because if we couldn't choose evil then we couldn't choose whom we will serve? And if we couldn't choose that we couldn't choose to serve Him. And therefore anyone who served Him would be doing so because they were made to, which is truly disingenuous.

    Laughing at your own jokes?

    Wrong.

    Calvinism says that God predestined to allow them to happen which maintains both God's sovereignty and human responsibility.
    Whose Calvinism?


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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    would you explain this verse

    Joh 7:6 Jesus said to them, "My time has not yet come, but your time is always here.
    If you back up in the chapter you will see that our Lord's brothers did not believe him. Here Jesus gives an explanation why they had bad judgment--they were projecting onto our Lord what they would have done in the same circumstances all the while not understanding the uniqueness of Jesus. Jesus tells them the time for his going to Jerusalem for the feast of the tabernacles is not yet at hand, whereas the brothers, not under special restraint like Jesus (see two verses later) can go up to Jerusalem at any time they want. The brothers know nothing of God's agenda, unlike our Lord.

    AMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Tell you what? Why God allows evil? Because if we couldn't choose evil then we couldn't choose whom we will serve? And if we couldn't choose that we couldn't choose to serve Him. And therefore anyone who served Him would be doing so because they were made to, which is truly disingenuous.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    If you back up in the chapter you will see that our Lord's brothers did not believe him. Here Jesus gives an explanation why they had bad judgment--they were projecting onto our Lord what they would have done in the same circumstances all the while not understanding the uniqueness of Jesus. Jesus tells them the time for his going to Jerusalem for the feast of the tabernacles is not yet at hand, whereas the brothers, not under special restraint like Jesus (see two verses later) can go up to Jerusalem at any time they want. The brothers know nothing of God's agenda, unlike our Lord.

    AMR


    i hope you not seriously expecting me to believe that .

    like you said go back in the chapter

    Joh 7:1 After this Jesus went about in Galilee. He would not go about in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill him.

    Joh 7:6 Jesus said to them, "My time has not yet come, but your time is always here.

    "My time has not yet come" refers to Jesus crucifixion

    "but your time is always here." means a person can die anytime

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post


    i hope you not seriously expecting me to believe that .

    like you said go back in the chapter

    Joh 7:1 After this Jesus went about in Galilee. He would not go about in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill him.

    Joh 7:6 Jesus said to them, "My time has not yet come, but your time is always here.

    "My time has not yet come" refers to Jesus crucifixion

    "but your time is always here." means a person can die anytime
    Why did you ask if you think you have it all figured out?

    I dislike these sort of games. If a person has an agenda they should just get on with it and state it plainly rather than playing twenty questions.

    Moving the discussion onward now, let me plainly state you are wrong. This verse is a good example of why having some facility with the ancient languages is useful.

    The right time (kairos) for me has not yet come; for you any time is right (literally: but your time [kairos] is always ready).

    The Greek word for ‘hour’ (hōra) often rendered ‘time’, always bears the theological content just indicated, provided it is not modified by a number (as in ‘the tenth hour’ or the like). Chronos, another word rendered ‘time’, always focuses on the extent of time, not the point or specific hour of time (the word is used in John only in 5:6; 7:33; 12:35; 14:9).

    The word kairos, found in verses 6 and 8, unlike chronos but like hōra, refers in John's Gospel to a point of time, but unlike hōra does not refer to Christ’s "being lifted up", to his glorification by way of the cross. If that were the case, then unlike John 2:4, Jesus is not saying that the time for unrestrained messianic blessings has not yet dawned because the ‘time’ of his glorification is not yet at hand (the final Passover was still more than six months away). Instead Jesus is saying that the ‘time’ for his going up to Jerusalem for this Feast of Tabernacles is not yet at hand.

    This interpretation is very clearly necessitated by the final words of the verse John 7:6: "for you any time (kairos) is right". In this reading, kairos makes sense: that is, as I have noted, Jesus’ brothers are free to go up to Jerusalem for the Feast any time they like, while Jesus is under special constraint (See John 7:8).

    AMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Why did you ask if you think you have it all figured out?

    I dislike these sort of games. If a person has an agenda they should just get on with it and state it plainly rather than playing twenty questions.
    Apparently you don't know the number one rule of lawyers: Never ask a question to which you do not already know the answer.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dialogos View Post
    Incidentally, even in Open Theism God ordains everything and decrees everything that will come to pass. That which an omnipotent being can prevent, but doesn't, He decrees and ordains.
    Not true.
    fidelis usque ad mortem

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    Joh 7:6 Jesus said to them, "My time has not yet come, but your time is always here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Why did you ask if you think you have it all figured out?

    I dislike these sort of games. If a person has an agenda they should just get on with it and state it plainly rather than playing twenty questions.

    just wanted to see how you would answer .

    it is a very simple verse but because of calvinism you can't interpret it correctly.

    Moving the discussion onward now, let me plainly state you are wrong. This verse is a good example of why having some facility with the ancient languages is useful.

    The right time (kairos) for me has not yet come; for you any time is right (literally: but your time [kairos] is always ready).

    The Greek word for ‘hour’ (hōra) often rendered ‘time’, always bears the theological content just indicated, provided it is not modified by a number (as in ‘the tenth hour’ or the like). Chronos, another word rendered ‘time’, always focuses on the extent of time, not the point or specific hour of time (the word is used in John only in 5:6; 7:33; 12:35; 14:9).

    The word kairos, found in verses 6 and 8, unlike chronos but like hōra, refers in John's Gospel to a point of time, but unlike hōra does not refer to Christ’s "being lifted up", to his glorification by way of the cross. If that were the case, then unlike John 2:4, Jesus is not saying that the time for unrestrained messianic blessings has not yet dawned because the ‘time’ of his glorification is not yet at hand (the final Passover was still more than six months away). Instead Jesus is saying that the ‘time’ for his going up to Jerusalem for this Feast of Tabernacles is not yet at hand.

    This interpretation is very clearly necessitated by the final words of the verse John 7:6: "for you any time (kairos) is right". In this reading, kairos makes sense: that is, as I have noted, Jesus’ brothers are free to go up to Jerusalem for the Feast any time they like, while
    i missed it
    something tells me you have problem with this verse too which is maybe why your ignoring it.
    God being constrained by the Jews.

    Joh 7:1 ... He would not go about in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill him.




    Jesus is under special constraint (See John 7:8).

    AMR
    ya like getting killed before his kairos

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