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Thread: Is The Bible divinely inspired or not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by revpete View Post
    Thank you for that AMR. I agree that only the original is inspired. However, the KJV (and no, I'm not a KJV onlyist) has been the version that has been used more than any other since its publication and I think has been preserved and blessed by God. Would you agree?
    I think the words in the original alone are inspired, but the inspiration is carried over into the sense as it is accurately conveyed in the KJV translation.

    When we approach holy Scripture we must make a choice -- we either stand to be judged by the Word of God, or we sit in judgement upon it? When a person takes up different versions of Scripture which contradict each other, the reader is obliged to discriminate between the two. Discrimination is an act of judgement. When two contradictory versions of Scripture are permitted, the reader is ipso facto required to sit in judgement on holy Scripture, and thereby excuses himself from the authority of the Word of God.

    The Bible calls upon believers to "hear the Word of the Lord" -- to hear, not to raise critical questions. Accordingly, the early church prefaced the public reading of holy Scripture with the summons to hear the Word of the Lord. Likewise, reformed piety taught that "the holy scriptures are to be read with an high and reverent esteem of them; with a firm persuasion that they are the very word of God" (Westminster Larger Catechism, answer 157). It is contrary to reformed piety to allow two different translations which contradict each other, and to esteem them both as the Word of God.

    Concerning the question as to the priority of translation or confession -- if we follow the path of the enlightenment, which lives in the dreamy world of uncorrupted human reason, follows the myth of neutrality, and insists upon the right of private judgement, then translation naturally comes first. On the other hand, if we follow the path of Christian discipleship, which acknowledges the noetic effects of the fall, the absolute necessity of spiritual illumination, and the constant requirement to engage in self-denial, then confession must be placed in the forefront.

    When we speak of the 'original manuscripts' we must do so understanding that God did not decide to preserve them as such. In other words, there is no such thing as 'original manuscript preservation' in the sense that we can pick up the original manuscripts to judge the authenticity of a particular passage.

    So the first thing we must do is see how God preserved the Scriptures and then work forward based on that foundation. As we look to God's word to find out how He chose to preserve Scripture we find...

    Romans 3:1-2 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

    1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

    So we see from Scripture that God has chosen to preserve His word not by keeping the originals intact, but rather through the Church. As we consider this idea of ecclesiastical preservation it becomes obvious that Church history and Church use become very important in determining the preserved word of God.

    The only area that even could have preserved Scripture throughout the years was the Byzantine area because the Western Church adopted Latin as their official language (thus no longer copying Greek texts), and the Alexandrian area had fallen to Islam early on (thus no longer copying any Bible texts).

    AMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    I think the words in the original alone are inspired, but the inspiration is carried over into the sense as it is accurately conveyed in the KJV translation.



    When we approach holy Scripture we must make a choice -- we either stand to be judged by the Word of God, or we sit in judgement upon it? When a person takes up different versions of Scripture which contradict each other, the reader is obliged to discriminate between the two. Discrimination is an act of judgement. When two contradictory versions of Scripture are permitted, the reader is ipso facto required to sit in judgement on holy Scripture, and thereby excuses himself from the authority of the Word of God.



    The Bible calls upon believers to "hear the Word of the Lord" -- to hear, not to raise critical questions. Accordingly, the early church prefaced the public reading of holy Scripture with the summons to hear the Word of the Lord. Likewise, reformed piety taught that "the holy scriptures are to be read with an high and reverent esteem of them; with a firm persuasion that they are the very word of God" (Westminster Larger Catechism, answer 157). It is contrary to reformed piety to allow two different translations which contradict each other, and to esteem them both as the Word of God.



    Concerning the question as to the priority of translation or confession -- if we follow the path of the enlightenment, which lives in the dreamy world of uncorrupted human reason, follows the myth of neutrality, and insists upon the right of private judgement, then translation naturally comes first. On the other hand, if we follow the path of Christian discipleship, which acknowledges the noetic effects of the fall, the absolute necessity of spiritual illumination, and the constant requirement to engage in self-denial, then confession must be placed in the forefront.



    When we speak of the 'original manuscripts' we must do so understanding that God did not decide to preserve them as such. In other words, there is no such thing as 'original manuscript preservation' in the sense that we can pick up the original manuscripts to judge the authenticity of a particular passage.



    So the first thing we must do is see how God preserved the Scriptures and then work forward based on that foundation. As we look to God's word to find out how He chose to preserve Scripture we find...



    Romans 3:1-2 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.



    1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.



    So we see from Scripture that God has chosen to preserve His word not by keeping the originals intact, but rather through the Church. As we consider this idea of ecclesiastical preservation it becomes obvious that Church history and Church use become very important in determining the preserved word of God.



    The only area that even could have preserved Scripture throughout the years was the Byzantine area because the Western Church adopted Latin as their official language (thus no longer copying Greek texts), and the Alexandrian area had fallen to Islam early on (thus no longer copying any Bible texts).



    AMR

    In view of your comments, what then is your opinion of textual criticism?


    Blessings: Pete <><

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    Quote Originally Posted by revpete View Post
    The KJV is divinely inspired but has man's errors.


    Blessings: Pete <><
    At all events, physically spoken and physically written scriptures of any type are not founded on Truth. They are not given as revelations of Truth. Truth is an individualized revelation which come to each humans only individually, privately and intuitively through each of their own hearts or spirits directly from the Spirit of Jesus. Everyone gets a different but precisely tailor made, Truth from the Spirit of Jesus/Spirit of Truth.

    Physically spoken and physically written scriptures are given for the sole purpose of guiding and managing the unawares (i.e. the dead) until they achieve the spiritual actualization to get Truth in the above manner. Then they totally drop all spoken or written scriptures including all related ideals and laws, like the Ten Commandments etc. and unconditionally embrace and be led (into all their works) by the Spirit of Truth/Spirit of Jesus even if they have to transgress all ideas, laws and tenants mentioned in any physically spoken and physically written scriptures

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    Quote Originally Posted by revpete View Post
    In view of your comments, what then is your opinion of textual criticism?


    Blessings: Pete <><
    At all events textual is death. Only the intuitively discerned, (not seen) Spirit of Truth giveth life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    I think the words in the original alone are inspired,

    AMR
    Inspiration cannot be retained in any physically spoken or physically written words.

    Inspiration is intuitive. It is an experience within the heart or spirit of an individual person.

    Although received through inspiration, spoken and written scriptures cannot include the inspiration. At best it can instruct one on the path to be an inspired receiver.


    Spoken or written scriptures can also bring one on to faith. And this provides the fertile ground for receiving the gift or actualization to be an inspired receiver of Truth.

    'Inspiration' refers to a gift of the Spirit to know things directly personally, privately and intuitively from the Spirit of Truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurucam View Post


    Inspiration cannot be retained in any physically spoken or physically written words.

    Inspiration is intuitive. It is an experience within the heart or spirit of an individual person.

    Although received through inspiration, spoken and written scriptures cannot include the inspiration. At best it can instruct one on the path to be an inspired receiver.


    Spoken or written scriptures can also bring one on to faith. And this provides the fertile ground for receiving the gift or actualization to be an inspired receiver of Truth.

    'Inspiration' refers to a gift of the Spirit to know things directly personally, privately and intuitively from the Spirit of Truth.

    Surely the danger with that definition is that interpretation is open to abuse. I interpret a scripture one way a RC another a JW another and a Mormon still another all claiming to be inspired by The Holy Spirit.


    Blessings: Pete <><

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    Quote Originally Posted by revpete View Post
    Thank you for that AMR. I agree that only the original is inspired. However, the KJV (and no, I'm not a KJV onlyist) has been the version that has been used more than any other since its publication and I think has been preserved and blessed by God. Would you agree?
    I don't know about AMR, but I do not believe the KJV is any more inspired than Luther's Transation, or any other scholarly translation using the oldest manuscripts to produce the most accurate translations.
    Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
    Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saved.One.by.Grace View Post
    I don't know about AMR...
    I think the words in the original alone are inspired, but the inspiration is carried over into the sense as it is accurately conveyed in the KJV translation.

    AMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    2 Timothy 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by revpete View Post
    Surely the danger with that definition is that interpretation is open to abuse. I interpret a scripture one way a RC another a JW another and a Mormon still another all claiming to be inspired by The Holy Spirit.
    Blessings: Pete <><
    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    2 Timothy 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    Originally Posted by Gurucam View Post


    Inspiration cannot be retained in any physically spoken or physically written words.

    Inspiration is intuitive. It is an experience within the heart or spirit of an individual person.

    Although received through inspiration, spoken and written scriptures cannot include the inspiration. At best it can instruct one on the path to be an inspired receiver.


    Spoken or written scriptures can also bring one on to faith. And this provides the fertile ground for receiving the gift or actualization to be an inspired receiver of Truth.

    'Inspiration' refers to a gift of the Spirit to know things directly personally, privately and intuitively from the Spirit of Truth.



    Such interpretations, which lead to the various sects, are rooted in lettered discernment. This has nothing to do with Spirituality or 'my definition'. Inspiration does no lettered discernment.

    Why do you consider my definition a danger? At all events, lettered discernment killeth. Therefore lettered 'discerners' are the dead who will bury their dead (i.e. their own kind). Lettered discernment must lead to various interpretations and therefore various sects. This is inevitable and this is what leads to many different interpretations and different sects.

    Also lettered discerners seek generalizations. Sects are grouping of people who hold that their generalized ideals and laws as derived from written scriptures is the only correct one. They includes JW, Mormon, Seven-days, Catholics etc.

    This is why all written scriptures is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction but not for salvation and deliverance. Salvation and deliverance is possibly only when one drops all written scriptures and embrace and is led only by the Spirit of Truth.

    The Spirit of Truth recognizes and uphold no generalization. The Spirit of Truth recognizes and uphold only diversity.

    Indeed there is absolute diversity in Truth which is delivered to each person privately and personally by the Spirit of Truth. The Spirit of Truth dispenses no generalized guidance.

    The Spirit of Truth never undermine or relegates diversity and individuality. The Spirit of Truth simply unifies diversity into harmony.

    For those who are led by Truth which come directly and intuitively from the Spirit of Truth, there is eternal life in heaven everywhere.

    You will not find any one who is led by the Spirit of Truth in any of those 'sects'.
    Last edited by Gurucam; August 5th, 2014 at 03:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurucam View Post
    This is why all written scriptures is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction but not for salvation and deliverance. Salvation and deliverance is possibly only when one drops all written scriptures...
    What a load

    Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    Ephesians 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

    Ephesians 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

    Ephesians 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

    Ephesians 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

    Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:



    2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

    2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

    2 Timothy 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    I think the words in the original alone are inspired, but the inspiration is carried over into the sense as it is accurately conveyed in the KJV translation.

    AMR
    I have no problem with the KJV translation, flaws and all. I was saved reading the KJV but not because of the translation. I was saved by grace though faith by means of the explanation of the text I was reading by a Southern Baptist exposition of the text. I find the KJV to be no more or less inspired than the NASB, NIV, HCSB, ESV, NKJV, etc.
    Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
    Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

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    Quote Originally Posted by The 5 solas View Post
    Oh my goodness, this isn't going to be a KJV only type thing, is it?
    I hope not. I hope people remember that scripture was originally written in Hebrew or Greek. The KJV is just one of many translations to a vernacular language -- English in this case.

    The KJV is NOT divinely inspired, but the Word of God is, in it's original languages.
    "Word" as in capitalized? In scripture the only time "Word" is capitalized is when it is referring to Jesus. When referring back to scripture, it is always "word of God".

    You aren't trying to elevate scripture to divinity, are you?

    The KJV is no more divinely inspired than the others which are accurately translated.
    I would agree. However, I would also say that sometimes the KJV translation is not accurate.
    If sound science appears to contradict the Bible, we may be sure that it is our interpretation of the Bible that is at fault." Christian Observer, 1832, pg. 437

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurucam View Post


    Inspiration cannot be retained in any physically spoken or physically written words.Inspiration is intuitive. It is an experience within the heart or spirit of an individual person.

    So inspiration is God's communication to you spirit. If God inspires you, you mentally put that inspiration into words. Why is it different if the words are in your head or you write them down?

    Although received through inspiration, spoken and written scriptures cannot include the inspiration. At best it can instruct one on the path to be an inspired receiver.
    Ah. I think you are trying to say that language cannot convey the entirety of the emotional experience of God. I would agree. However, we often translate our emotions to language. The translation may be incomplete, but it does capture some of the truth.

    Spoken or written scriptures can also bring one on to faith.
    Welcome to the original sola scriptura as stated by Luther and Calvin. Scripture is a means to help you find your own personal relationship to God. However, to do that, logically scripture must convey some of the "inspiration" from God to the writer of scripture. If scripture does not convey that communication from God, then how can it help you find communication with God? I am afraid you have contradicted your own original claims. Sorry.

    'Inspiration' refers to a gift of the Spirit to know things directly personally, privately and intuitively from the Spirit of Truth.
    And again, why cannot you make those "privately" known "things" public by writing them down? Again you provide arguments contradicting yourself.
    If sound science appears to contradict the Bible, we may be sure that it is our interpretation of the Bible that is at fault." Christian Observer, 1832, pg. 437

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurucam View Post




    Originally Posted by Gurucam View Post


    Inspiration cannot be retained in any physically spoken or physically written words.

    Inspiration is intuitive. It is an experience within the heart or spirit of an individual person.

    Although received through inspiration, spoken and written scriptures cannot include the inspiration. At best it can instruct one on the path to be an inspired receiver.


    Spoken or written scriptures can also bring one on to faith. And this provides the fertile ground for receiving the gift or actualization to be an inspired receiver of Truth.

    'Inspiration' refers to a gift of the Spirit to know things directly personally, privately and intuitively from the Spirit of Truth.



    Such interpretations, which lead to the various sects, are rooted in lettered discernment. This has nothing to do with Spirituality or 'my definition'. Inspiration does no lettered discernment.

    Why do you consider my definition a danger? At all events, lettered discernment killeth. Therefore lettered 'discerners' are the dead who will bury their dead (i.e. their own kind). Lettered discernment must lead to various interpretations and therefore various sects. This is inevitable and this is what leads to many different interpretations and different sects.

    Also lettered discerners seek generalizations. Sects are grouping of people who hold that their generalized ideals and laws as derived from written scriptures is the only correct one. They includes JW, Mormon, Seven-days, Catholics etc.

    This is why all written scriptures is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction but not for salvation and deliverance. Salvation and deliverance is possibly only when one drops all written scriptures and embrace and is led only by the Spirit of Truth.

    The Spirit of Truth recognizes and uphold no generalization. The Spirit of Truth recognizes and uphold only diversity.

    Indeed there is absolute diversity in Truth which is delivered to each person privately and personally by the Spirit of Truth. The Spirit of Truth dispenses no generalized guidance.

    The Spirit of Truth never undermine or relegates diversity and individuality. The Spirit of Truth simply unifies diversity into harmony.

    For those who are led by Truth which come directly and intuitively from the Spirit of Truth, there is eternal life in heaven everywhere.

    You will not find any one who is led by the Spirit of Truth in any of those 'sects'.

    No scripture is of any private interpretation 2Pet.1:20. That is why I consider that your view has an element of danger... Holy men of God spoke as they were inspired by The Holy Spirit... I may be misunderstanding you, correct me if that is the case.


    Blessings: Pete <><

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