Calvin, Spurgeon, Moody and 'arry Moorhouse

[The 5 solas]

Question what is your leaning? Calvinism, Arminianism, 5 points, no points, "I'm just a Christian"

I am a Christian, I fellowship at a Reformed Baptist church and I embrace the Doctrines of Grace...all 5 points.
I am more than willing to dialogue with people whose doctrine differs from my own and be civil and kind to them

[Christian Liberty]

It is interesting because, since I initially wrote my response to you, I had an opportunity to speak about this to my Pastor. He also said that Pink had those leanings and that although he would not label him a hyper calvinist himself, there was definitely a reason to understand why some did call him that. Sounds like the same thing you are saying.

I understand.

There are definitely nuances they are missing in good ole wiki on this issue. I am supra but I am certainly not a hyper-calvinist.

Yes, I agree.

I had rethought my own statement and totally agree with your hesitation. Although the Apostle's Creed is valuable, it is not exhaustive. Most "Christian" denominations would say they accept the creed, yet in reality they have additions or doctrines that would make it moot. I was looking at it from my own point of reference and forgot that others do not have the same framework. Good call!

This.

Excellent verse to point out in this circumstance. I do not know what the condition of his soul was, nor does anyone. I like to think there is reason to hope, but that changes nothing. My guess on the question there is that we are often portrayed as the Frozen Chosen and so staunch, maybe the Calvi's are trying to be gracious. lol Wesley was never one that we studied because he was off doctrinally, so that ends my comment on John.

We certainly have no idea whether he's in heaven or hell. The question that's more pertinent to me is whether he taught damnable heresy. I can't say with 100% certainty that Joseph Smith is in Hell, but we know based on his teachings that he was a false prophet and that he was certainly not a Christian during his public ministry. God could of course have saved him on his deathbed or whatever.

By contrast, someone like Charles Spurgeon is filled with evidence based on his doctrine and his life that he was one of God's.

I'm not sure I see the evidence, based on what little I've seen from him, that John Wesley was saved during his public ministry. And I find it somewhat odd that so many Calvinists assume that he was. Its certainly possible that he was, and I hope that he was, but I just don't see doctrinal orthodoxy. I could definitely see a new believer having theological errors as long as those errors do not involve a works-based gospel, even if they believe certain things that are inconsistent with the true gospel. But, I think such a person would eventually start to see the light, or at least not call the correct doctrines "doctrines of demons" and so forth. I'm not sure where the line is between being too judgmental and not being judgmental enough, and I try to be careful not to go to extremes in either direction.

Thank you for your input and being so gracious to dialogue with.

You are welcome. God bless

[beloved57]

God's Love is redemptive and in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In the original its the Love of God with the definite article, so its an exclusive Love of God, now that said, Yes God has a considerate providence towards all men, elect and non elect alike Matt 5:45

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

This is not His Redemptive and exclusive Love in Christ Jesus.

An example may help here to explain what is meant, Say a Jailor who has care over 100 prisoners, vile men, and one of them is his own son, just as vile as the others, difference being thats his son, and all prisoners being under his charge and care until their final judgment falls upon them, he has an responsibility to give them the common necessities of life to preserve them to that day. He feeds them, gives them water, takes them out for air and exercise, but for one of those vile men, He actually has a special Love for, though by the standards of prision life he treats the son no better than the others with the common necessities of life, or treats them no less, only difference is he has an special love for his son ! The Jailor exercises the same common care over all the prisoners, but he loves only one of them.

Now, The children of God , we treat all men, as much as in us is, with all due consideration. Lets imagine, if one i know is an staunch blasphemer and hates the God I Love and serve, lets say that one day I see that person on the highway, they have just been shot and i pull over and see its my enemy in the Gospel and they need medical attention quick, lest they die, it would move me out of common cilvity and appreciation out of their physical well being, to do what i can to faciliatate their life being preserved, my differences in faith is not a consideration, though when it comes to that, I hate them, and wish them accursed Gal 1:8-9, but when it comes to being able to help preserve their life, I am moved with common and natural affection of compassion for my fellow creature ! Hence thats what Jesus means:

Lk 10:30-37

30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

That word compassion means:

I.to be moved as to one's bowels, hence to be moved with compassion, have compassion (for the bowels were thought to be the seat of love and pity)

This is not brotherly love, certainly not redemptive Love but more of a civil affection for our fellow creature, we are not without natural affection as stated here 2 Tim 33:3

Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

That word natural affection actually means unloving, naturally !

[Shasta]

God's Love is redemptive and in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In the original its the Love of God with the definite article, so its an exclusive Love of God, now that said, Yes God has a considerate providence towards all men, elect and non elect alike Matt 5:45

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

This is not His Redemptive and exclusive Love in Christ Jesus.

An example may help here to explain what is meant, Say a Jailor who has care over 100 prisoners, vile men, and one of them is his own son, just as vile as the others, difference being thats his son, and all prisoners being under his charge and care until their final judgment falls upon them, he has an responsibility to give them the common necessities of life to preserve them to that day. He feeds them, gives them water, takes them out for air and exercise, but for one of those vile men, He actually has a special Love for, though by the standards of prision life he treats the son no better than the others with the common necessities of life, or treats them no less, only difference is he has an special love for his son ! The Jailor exercises the same common care over all the prisoners, but he loves only one of them.

Now, The children of God , we treat all men, as much as in us is, with all due consideration. Lets imagine, if one i know is an staunch blasphemer and hates the God I Love and serve, lets say that one day I see that person on the highway, they have just been shot and i pull over and see its my enemy in the Gospel and they need medical attention quick, lest they die, it would move me out of common cilvity and appreciation out of their physical well being, to do what i can to faciliatate their life being preserved, my differences in faith is not a consideration, though when it comes to that, I hate them, and wish them accursed Gal 1:8-9, but when it comes to being able to help preserve their life, I am moved with common and natural affection of compassion for my fellow creature ! Hence thats what Jesus means:

Lk 10:30-37



That word compassion means:

I.to be moved as to one's bowels, hence to be moved with compassion, have compassion (for the bowels were thought to be the seat of love and pity)

This is not brotherly love, certainly not redemptive Love but more of a civil affection for our fellow creature, we are not without natural affection as stated here 2 Tim 33:3

Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

That word natural affection actually means unloving, naturally !

So your jailor keeps thousands of prisoners caged while they await their inevitable sentence of being incinerated. He makes food and water available to them. Sometimes he even urges them to passionately to take, eat and drink at no cost. The trick is that he has not given them mouths. He could do so. Sometimes he does. Basically though he operates on a tiny minority. At least God is "civil." If all you have is "civility" for people then know little about the love of God. More is required of us than preaching correct doctrine, doing our religious duty and being nice people.

[beloved57]

shasta

So your jailor keeps thousands of prisoners caged while they await their inevitable sentence of being incinerated.

You quoted from post 33 and then evaded from the points I made, did you understand all the points I made ? Please review them with me in your next post ! Thanks !

[Lon]

The trick is that he has not given them mouths.

If they are born without mouths, it is themselves that have done it. Man was no created with this sin disorder to ignore God and live autonomously.

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

I am a Christian, I fellowship at a Reformed Baptist church and I embrace the Doctrines of Grace...all 5 points.
I am more than willing to dialogue with people whose doctrine differs from my own and be civil and kind to them

Finding people here willing to dialogue with you, regarding T-U-L-I-P and the five solas, in a civil manner maybe too much to ask for.

[The 5 solas]

Finding people here willing to dialogue with you, regarding T-U-L-I-P and the five solas, in a civil manner maybe too much to ask for.

Oh I am well aware of that now that I have been here for a month's time. There are a handful of people on here who embrace the Doctrines of Grace. There are also a few who do not but are civilized enough to engage in discussion without it spiraling down into juvenile namecalling. When I desire to truly have serious dialogue of that manner, it is not here that I post.

[Totton Linnet]

The doctrines of Grace precede TULIP. nor do the doctrines of Grace depend upon it.

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

The doctrines of Grace precede TULIP. nor do the doctrines of Grace depend upon it.

Actually, it's the other way around. Because of the desire by some to separate themselves from the T-U-L-I-P acrostic and Calvinism, the doctrines of Grace are derived from T-U-L-I-P.

Read more at: http://www.gotquestions.org/doctrines-of-grace.html

[Totton Linnet]

Pershaw....Paul taught the doctrines of Grace and the Reformation was based upon them...nobody taught them like Luther. [I mean so vehemently]

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

Pershaw....Paul taught the doctrines of Grace and the Reformation was based upon them...nobody taught them like Luther. [I mean so vehemently]

T-U-L-I-P is nothing more than the Gospel, which is pre-Reformation and aligns with Biblical truth. Luther is an interesting person in the Reformation. Would he have ever left the Roman Catholic faith if they had took his 95 Theses as legitimate grievances, we'll never know.

[Totton Linnet]

Can you show a scripture to show limited atonement?

[Totton Linnet]

T-U-L-I-P is nothing more than the Gospel, which is pre-Reformation and aligns with Biblical truth. Luther is an interesting person in the Reformation. Would he have ever left the Roman Catholic faith if they had took his 95 Theses as legitimate grievances, we'll never know.

Luther's abhorrence of indulgences sprang from his discovery of righteousness by faith. The argument soon broadened out. The hinge of the matter turned upon his argument with Erasmus, whether faith and works or grace alone through faith...boy that is the teaching we need in the church today.

[beloved57]

sobg

T-U-L-I-P is nothing more than the Gospel

So you really believe that huh ? Do you believe that people who reject limited atonement are believers of the Gospel ? Yes or No !