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Thread: Calvin, Spurgeon, Moody and 'arry Moorhouse

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    tol



    It does, the bible teaches that foolish person. 1 Tim 2:4

    4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    The word knowledge here is the greek word epignōsis and means:

    I.precise and correct knowledge Do you know what precise means ? Go look it up in a dictionary !

    Titus 1:1

    Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

    2 Thess 2:13

    13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    You cannot be experiencing Salvation without believing the Truth. That what arminians preach is not truth, they are lies, and since you agree with them, you believe lies also !
    Yes did you see that?

    Who desires all men to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of the truth.

    It is perfectly plain from Paul's epistles to any of the assemblies that he was writing to saved people many of whom were not in full possession of precise knowledge.

    Who would be saved if anything depended upon full and precise knowledge of doctrines? why a few shrivelled souls, a few greybeards. The foolish and the weak would not stand a chance, yet these are the very ones He came to save.

    And the WHOLE truth is Christ Himself, it is embodied in Him and Jesus saves...whosoever shall call upon Him will be saved.

    You always talking about God's glory...what glory if only intellectual people could be saved?

    God desires that we be saved and He desires that we come to knowledge of the truth...they are separate things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The 5 solas View Post
    John Wesley was a 5 point arminian, soteriologically. He would have held views such as perfectionism, which are not arminian, but with regards to salvation he held to all 5 points.

    I would be interested to know why you think that he was not.
    Wesley was an Anglican priest and even to this day the articles are Calvinistic. Wesley believed in prevenient grace, he did look for the Holy Spirit to first quicken and then to move the human will.

    What Wesley could not bear was that God should have predestined any for damnation.

    The split between himself and Whitefield was more a clash of personalities than doctrinal....Wesley was imperious, he did still think rather that Whitefield was his minor. He probably did think that perfection was achievable, certainly he believed it ought to be aspired to.
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    tl

    Yes did you see that?
    No, the point is, did you see that. Knowledge of Salvation must be correct and precise !

    And so you endorse folk who preach a false Gospel !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    tl



    No, the point is, did you see that. Knowledge of Salvation must be correct and precise !

    And so you endorse folk who preach a false Gospel !
    Yes you will always have an answer but you are wrong. Christ did not come for intellectuals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    Yes you will always have an answer but you are wrong. Christ did not come for intellectuals.
    See you at the Judgment, with your false gospel loving self ! Gal 1:8-9 take that !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Silver Member Totton Linnet's Avatar
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    Plumb foolish.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    Wesley was an Anglican priest and even to this day the articles are Calvinistic. Wesley believed in prevenient grace, he did look for the Holy Spirit to first quicken and then to move the human will.

    What Wesley could not bear was that God should have predestined any for damnation.

    The split between himself and Whitefield was more a clash of personalities than doctrinal....Wesley was imperious, he did still think rather that Whitefield was his minor. He probably did think that perfection was achievable, certainly he believed it ought to be aspired to.
    Everything I have ever read has indicated that he was indeed an arminian on all five points. After reading your post, I started to look up different articles on the subject and I see nothing that indicates otherwise. I am definitely open to see examples of his sermons or writings that indicate that is not so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    Yes you will always have an answer but you are wrong. Christ did not come for intellectuals.
    Amen.

    1 Corinthians 1:27-29

    27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.

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    This a good thread, been reading through it, I have no bones to pick about it. There's a mix of Calvinism and Arminianism, I think that makes for healthy debate; this thread also gives us the opportunity to understand both groups.

    I really don't have a lot to contribute; if memory serves me right, since we belong to the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel (ICFG) a very conservative Pentecostal church, it leans toward the Arminianism doctrine; I'll have to read again "This Is That" a publication about ICFG, by Sister Aimee McPherson in part; and the ICFG declaration of faith, this we believe; the Moody's "Here We Stand" declaration of faith.

    Here are two things worth reading from Charles H. Spurgeon...

    All Of Grace ... www.spurgeon.org/all_of_g.htm

    The Greatest Fight In The World ... www.spurgeon.org/misc/gfw.htm

    I'll try to find something from D. L. Moody, R. A. Torrey, G. Campbell Morgan on the topic of this thread.

    Question what is your leaning? Calvinism, Arminianism, 5 points, no points, "I'm just a Christian"
    Last edited by Psalmist; July 2nd, 2014 at 04:36 AM.


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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    [SIZE="4"][COLOR="DarkSlateBlue"]I have never gotten the green light from the Lord to read Calvin
    What would this "green light" be to you exactly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    What would this "green light" be to you exactly?

    AMR
    Obviously I am not Paul but we read he would have gone through Asia but the Spirit of Christ prevented him. [I have the same Lord as Paul]

    It doesn't say how.

    Do you have any check on you from the Lord to reading anything? can you watch anything at all on telly? go watch any film you like in the cinema? I am not here likening any these things to Calvin theology of course but when you feel checked how does the check come?

    Do you ask the Lord to guide you in what to read? are you your own, do you have freewill?

    Is not reading to have a one way conversation with somebody? are you not imbibing? did we not ought to be terribly circumspect?

    What if the Lord only decided that I was not yet mature enough? and at sometime later would have me to study Calvin at length....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psalmist View Post
    This a good thread, been reading through it, I have no bones to pick about it. There's a mix of Calvinism and Arminianism, I think that makes for healthy debate; this thread also gives us the opportunity to understand both groups.

    I really don't have a lot to contribute; if memory serves me right, since we belong to the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel (ICFG) a very conservative Pentecostal church, it leans toward the Arminianism doctrine; I'll have to read again "This Is That" a publication about ICFG, by Sister Aimee McPherson in part; and the ICFG declaration of faith, this we believe; the Moody's "Here We Stand" declaration of faith.

    Here are two things worth reading from Charles H. Spurgeon...

    All Of Grace ... www.spurgeon.org/all_of_g.htm

    The Greatest Fight In The World ... www.spurgeon.org/misc/gfw.htm

    I'll try to find something from D. L. Moody, R. A. Torrey, G. Campbell Morgan on the topic of this thread.

    Question what is your leaning? Calvinism, Arminianism, 5 points, no points, "I'm just a Christian"
    I was chatting really I understand why the two camps must be separate, I am not sure why they have to be such bitter enemies. They always have been.

    I can never be Calvinist until they clear up the question of Reprobation and "Double Predestiny" yet I applaud the doctrines of Sovereignty and Free Grace, Predestination and Election.

    I despise the doctrines of Conditional Salvation and the idea that man has freewill.

    It is a matter of history that Pentecostalism came up through the Arminian camp...THAT to me is the weakness of it, the weakness is more apparent in the Charismatic churches than in the Pentecostal churches.
    One lavished upon in the Beloved
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    Quote Originally Posted by The 5 solas View Post
    Everything I have ever read has indicated that he was indeed an arminian on all five points. After reading your post, I started to look up different articles on the subject and I see nothing that indicates otherwise. I am definitely open to see examples of his sermons or writings that indicate that is not so.
    But he wasn't that's the thing, Wesley is much harder to categorise than that. He did not seem to have a systematic theology.

    One guiding factor through all his life was his own experience of salvation at Aldersgate St. It burned into him as no learned theology would the futility of human will and effort in the matter of salvation.

    His "Methodism" applies to his pre-saved Oxford days, the name stuck. I haven't read Wesley extensively but it seems clear to me that in his preaching he looked for the operation of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of his hearers ...we can't imagine him asking for people to "make a decision."

    He was decidedly against the Calvin doctrine of Reprobation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The 5 solas View Post
    I really like Phil Johnson and think that his teachings are pretty sound.
    I do too. I'm respectfully criticizing someone I like here.

    I certainly do not view Pink as a hyper calvinist at all, so perhaps I need to look more closely at my understanding of it.
    Pink believed that God had no love whatsoever for the non-elect. I don't know whether he believed in common grace or not. But he didn't hold to any of the other "hyper-calvinist" points. So I'd consider him a very high Calvinist, not a hyper-calvinist. The same for Gordon Clark and John Robbins.


    In my own personal experience, which is never anything but subjective, I know...I have never met a true hyper-calvinist, so it is all theory to me.
    Neither have I. There really aren't that many of them. A lot of times its a phantom that people use to describe people who are more extreme than them.



    I had the understanding that hyper calvinists, although definitely not big on preaching the gospel....did think that the elect should hear it. That is one of the problems though, right? You cannot tell who the elect are before they are saved.
    Yeah, that would be a problem. But I didn't say ALL hyper-calvinists believe that. There are some who say God doesn't use means at all. But others say that there is no general call for all without exception to repent, or that the non-elect are not responsible to respond to this call. These people are hypers as well.

    Yes, I can understand why you say this about the connotation of hyper calvinism. I clearly have more to learn. It does irk me when people do misuse that term and paint all Calvinists with it.
    Its somewhat subjective and people still argue over this. I try to reserve the term only for actual heresies and not orthodox, if Biblically questionable, viewpoints that are more extreme than what I would hold yet don't necessarily threaten sound gospel preaching.

    For what its worth, wikipedia combines the "hyper-calvinist" and supralapsarian positions into one article and says that they are the same thing, which I think is absolutely ridiculous, and I'm more infra.
    I have never heard of Predestinarian Network, is that really something on tv? Betcha they don't have high ratings! lol
    No, its not really something on TV. Its a website. Go ahead and look it up, but don't waste too much time
    Oh I agree. I think I am majorly failing in expressing myself. I do not wish to put across the idea that I am some kind of all inclusive, wishy washy person who thinks everyone who says Lord Lord, is saved. I do think that I am reacting to the general feeling on this board where everyone is so quick to judge others and send them on their way to hell because of some of their doctrines. I have never been told I am not a Christian and that I am going to hell, as many times as I have in these two weeks, compared to all the rest of my life! lol
    Yeah, I got you. Don't let it get to you. It depends on which doctrines for me.


    I would say no because they are putting their faith in the act of Baptism, instead of the finished work of Jesus Christ. They believe it is salvific, which it is not.
    I hold the same position, despite the fact that the issue isn't mentioned in the creed. Hence why I'd hesitate to say that anyone who confesses the creed is saved.

    Quote Originally Posted by The 5 solas View Post
    John Wesley was a 5 point arminian, soteriologically. He would have held views such as perfectionism, which are not arminian, but with regards to salvation he held to all 5 points.

    I would be interested to know why you think that he was not.
    Are you still confident that he was saved even though he is a perfectionist? What about 1 John 1:8?

    I don't think we need to play the "judge the fates of dead people" game but I do find it somewhat odd why so many Calvinists assume Wesley was a man of God despite his doctrine. Interestingly, Toplady thought he was satanic at the time, and I'm not 100% convinced that he was wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    Pink believed that God had no love whatsoever for the non-elect. I don't know whether he believed in common grace or not. But he didn't hold to any of the other "hyper-calvinist" points. So I'd consider him a very high Calvinist, not a hyper-calvinist. The same for Gordon Clark and John Robbins.
    It is interesting because, since I initially wrote my response to you, I had an opportunity to speak about this to my Pastor. He also said that Pink had those leanings and that although he would not label him a hyper calvinist himself, there was definitely a reason to understand why some did call him that. Sounds like the same thing you are saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    For what its worth, wikipedia combines the "hyper-calvinist" and supralapsarian positions into one article and says that they are the same thing, which I think is absolutely ridiculous, and I'm more infra.
    There are definitely nuances they are missing in good ole wiki on this issue. I am supra but I am certainly not a hyper-calvinist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    I hold the same position, despite the fact that the issue isn't mentioned in the creed. Hence why I'd hesitate to say that anyone who confesses the creed is saved.
    I had rethought my own statement and totally agree with your hesitation. Although the Apostle's Creed is valuable, it is not exhaustive. Most "Christian" denominations would say they accept the creed, yet in reality they have additions or doctrines that would make it moot. I was looking at it from my own point of reference and forgot that others do not have the same framework. Good call!

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    Are you still confident that he was saved even though he is a perfectionist? What about 1 John 1:8?

    I don't think we need to play the "judge the fates of dead people" game but I do find it somewhat odd why so many Calvinists assume Wesley was a man of God despite his doctrine. Interestingly, Toplady thought he was satanic at the time, and I'm not 100% convinced that he was wrong.
    Excellent verse to point out in this circumstance. I do not know what the condition of his soul was, nor does anyone. I like to think there is reason to hope, but that changes nothing. My guess on the question there is that we are often portrayed as the Frozen Chosen and so staunch, maybe the Calvi's are trying to be gracious. lol Wesley was never one that we studied because he was off doctrinally, so that ends my comment on John.

    Thank you for your input and being so gracious to dialogue with.

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