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Thread: Calvin, Spurgeon, Moody and 'arry Moorhouse

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    Calvin, Spurgeon, Moody and 'arry Moorhouse

    I have never gotten the green light from the Lord to read Calvin but I have read Spurgeon voraciously since early on. Now how many Spurgeon lovers know that despite his hot denial Spurgeon did mellow a little in his Calvinism...just a little.

    D.L.Moody was a redden hot hellfire preacher, he was already becoming big in Chicago when he first visited Britain, he went along to hear C.H.Spurgeon at the Metropolitan Tabernacle in London. Sitting in the balcony he longed to be able to attract the crowds as Spurgeon and he loved Spurgeon's style.

    While in England a slender young man from Lancashire called Harry Moorhouse introduced himself to Moody and said in his Lancashire accent, "If you like I'll come and preach for you" Moody ever affable said "sure if you are in America come and see me" thinking nothing of it.

    But later that year Moorhouse turned up in Chicago. Moody was due to leave for a week and because of his promise he reluctantly allowed Moorhouse to fill in for the week.

    Now this Harry Moorhouse was a non Darbyite Brethren and he taught Moody the art of expository preaching after the Brethren fashion....that is taking a portion and systematically expounding it verse by verse. But that was not all for Moorhouse revolutionised Moody by preaching every day of the week allotted him from John 3.16. From John 3.16 Moorhouse went from book to book of the bible to show that love was God's motive in everything He does.

    Moody thought it was a weak message but by the time he returned the crowds were flocking to Moorhouse's meetings and they were enthralled by his preaching and many responded to the message. Moody was so impressed he allowed Moorhouse to continue. And the love message transformed Moody's own ministry.

    Now D.L.Moody's own ministry went viral. And he was invited to come to Britain with Sankey. He had remarkable success in winning souls and revival broke out in many places....especially Scotland. but Spurgeon loved Moody, Moody came under attack by the Calvinists especially for his innovations such as the "enquiry room" which Moody instituted for the many anxious souls and many looked to Spurgeon to lead the attack but Spurgeon only had good words for Moody.

    It was from this time onwards that Spurgeon's Calvinism came under close scrutiny.
    Last edited by Totton Linnet; July 13th, 2014 at 10:25 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    I have never gotten the green light from the Lord to read Calvin but I have read Spurgeon voraciously since early on. Now how many Spurgeon lovers know that despite his hot denial Spurgeon did mellow a little in his Calvinism...just a little.

    Gotta love Spurgeon, the Prince of Preachers. It is interesting that you say he mellowed, I would love to know why you say this. I know he was a hardcore 5 pointer until his death...did he just mellow with age, although he was only 57 when he died. Another thing that comes to my mind is his struggle with depression, his wife's health, the Downgrade Controversy and the work load that he carried. You got my attention on this, I want to know more. =)

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    Quote Originally Posted by The 5 solas View Post
    Gotta love Spurgeon, the Prince of Preachers. It is interesting that you say he mellowed, I would love to know why you say this. I know he was a hardcore 5 pointer until his death...did he just mellow with age, although he was only 57 when he died. Another thing that comes to my mind is his struggle with depression, his wife's health, the Downgrade Controversy and the work load that he carried. You got my attention on this, I want to know more. =)
    He certainly held to his confession and famously once tried to teach General William Booth TULIP.

    Hyper Calvinists to this day claim that Spurgeon sold out. He himself allowed time at the end of his meetings to allow for anxious enquirers, he also began to throw out an almost Arminian call for people to cry out to the Lord, of course he would have scorned to invite people to "accept Christ" as is the modern way...but well people saw these things as a move in the wrong direction...a slight [ever so slight] departure.

    Also of course in the downgrade matter he did join forces with all evangelicals of whatever their theological leanings to uphold the fundamental evangelical doctrines.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    He certainly held to his confession and famously once tried to teach General William Booth TULIP.

    Hyper Calvinists to this day claim that Spurgeon sold out. He himself allowed time at the end of his meetings to allow for anxious enquirers, he also began to throw out an almost Arminian call for people to cry out to the Lord, of course he would have scorned to invite people to "accept Christ" as is the modern way...but well people saw these things as a move in the wrong direction...a slight [ever so slight] departure.

    Also of course in the downgrade matter he did join forces with all evangelicals of whatever their theological leanings to uphold the fundamental evangelical doctrines.
    Spurgeon certainly wasn't a "high" Calvinist, and I'm probably closer to James White on the particulars. He was also accepting of people who disagreed with him, which can be correct or incorrect depending on instance. But he was certainly always inside the "Calvinist" umbrella.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    Spurgeon certainly wasn't a "high" Calvinist, and I'm probably closer to James White on the particulars. He was also accepting of people who disagreed with him, which can be correct or incorrect depending on instance. But he was certainly always inside the "Calvinist" umbrella.
    On the occasion that General Booth came to see Spurgeon it was to ask permission to use the Metropolitan Tabernacle for a Salvation Army convention. Now the Met was protected by deed forbidding any other than the Grace doctrines to be preached from it's pulpit...Spurgeon's first attempt was try to teach Booth TULIP but the old General was having none of that.

    Spurgeon was very sorry. He had to refuse the Met to Booth. He sat down at his bureau and wrote out a large cheque which easily covered the cost of a large venue for the convention with plenty left over....such was Spurgeon's heart.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    He certainly held to his confession and famously once tried to teach General William Booth TULIP.

    Hyper Calvinists to this day claim that Spurgeon sold out. He himself allowed time at the end of his meetings to allow for anxious enquirers, he also began to throw out an almost Arminian call for people to cry out to the Lord, of course he would have scorned to invite people to "accept Christ" as is the modern way...but well people saw these things as a move in the wrong direction...a slight [ever so slight] departure.

    Also of course in the downgrade matter he did join forces with all evangelicals of whatever their theological leanings to uphold the fundamental evangelical doctrines.
    Hyper Calvinism is a distortion of the gospel, so no wonder they had their panties in a knot.

    We should always be calling people to accept Christ. The mandate is the same, the great commission...go forth and preach the gospel to all the world. The general offer of the gospel must go out to all. Mark 16:16, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Not the sappy alter calls they have that feed on people's emotions, which he did not do, but rather confronting people with their spiritual state and their need for redemption.

    The Hyper Calvinists were not happy because he preached the gospel and the Arminians were not happy because he preached the Doctrines of Grace.

    He did indeed join forces with other evangelicals of different stripes during the Downgrade Controversy, but the key word here being evangelical. That is often my point on this forum...just because someone differs theologically, even if one thinks they are in error on some doctrinal points, they can still be brothers and sisters in Christ because we agree on the basic tenets of the Christian faith.

    I admire Spurgeon very much, which I know you do as well from your comments. He is a true blessing to the church.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    On the occasion that General Booth came to see Spurgeon it was to ask permission to use the Metropolitan Tabernacle for a Salvation Army convention. Now the Met was protected by deed forbidding any other than the Grace doctrines to be preached from it's pulpit...Spurgeon's first attempt was try to teach Booth TULIP but the old General was having none of that.

    Spurgeon was very sorry. He had to refuse the Met to Booth. He sat down at his bureau and wrote out a large cheque which easily covered the cost of a large venue for the convention with plenty left over....such was Spurgeon's heart.
    I don't support letting Arminians preach. This would be a point on which I disagree with Spurgeon. In my experience Arminians either don't know the Bible or are judgmental of God.
    Quote Originally Posted by The 5 solas View Post
    Hyper Calvinism is a distortion of the gospel, so no wonder they had their panties in a knot.
    Define "hyper-calvinism". I agree with the statement as written but everyone uses this term differently so I want to see where you're coming from.

    He did indeed join forces with other evangelicals of different stripes during the Downgrade Controversy, but the key word here being evangelical. That is often my point on this forum...just because someone differs theologically, even if one thinks they are in error on some doctrinal points, they can still be brothers and sisters in Christ because we agree on the basic tenets of the Christian faith.
    I'm not saying its impossible to believe it and be saved, but I don't think Arminianism is comparable to eschatology or ecclesiology or mode of baptism or other clearly "secondary" issues. Arminianism puts the center of focus on man and gives him some credit, this is very dangerous.

    I admire Spurgeon very much, which I know you do as well from your comments. He is a true blessing to the church.
    I do too. I don't agree with him on absolutely everything, but I agree with him more than I do most others. He was even extremely anti-war, which I think is awesome...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    I don't support letting Arminians preach. This would be a point on which I disagree with Spurgeon. In my experience Arminians either don't know the Bible or are judgmental of God.
    I think the point of that story was that Spurgeon initially shared the Doctrines of Grace with Booth in hopes that he would see the truth and accept it. Booth did not believe and as a result, Booth was not allowed to preach in the Tabernacle.

    I do agree that Calvinists tend to be more theologically aware and better taught, generally speaking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    Define "hyper-calvinism". I agree with the statement as written but everyone uses this term differently so I want to see where you're coming from.
    I am speaking of hyper calvinism in the historical sense. It would include those who deny the concept of common grace and that God indeed has a general love for the world, elect and non-elect. (John 3:16, Matt 5:45) They deny that the call of the gospel should go out to the non-elect, and that it is a sincere call to repentance. (2 Corinthians 5:20)
    They take God's sovereignty but seem to forget that the Scriptures teach that even in light of election, we are still morally and spiritually responsible for our rejection of Christ. These are the ones who can bear the label, Frozen Chosen.


    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    I'm not saying its impossible to believe it and be saved, but I don't think Arminianism is comparable to eschatology or ecclesiology or mode of baptism or other clearly "secondary" issues. Arminianism puts the center of focus on man and gives him some credit, this is very dangerous.
    Yes it does, it is wrong doctrine. It steals the glory from God for what He has done for us, through the sacrifice of Christ and takes the power from His hands and puts it into the hands of feeble humans. However.... although I believe they are definitely wrong and it does affect their overall understanding of Scripture in more ways than they realize...they can still be saved.

    I am fond of listing out the great teachers, preachers and church fathers who embraced the Doctrines of Grace. I do this to help illustrate that when people say I am not a Christian and I am going to hell....that they might realize how many of the most respected men and best theological minds in history, also embraced them. In doing so, I will offer the same opportunity to them. For instance, John Wesley did not believe in the Doctrines of Grace but from what I have read, I will certainly not say that he was not a true Believer, I think he was. Then there are those like Charles Finney whom I think did the church much damage and there is reason to question his faith, to be sure.

    If someone agrees with the Apostle's Creed, which is simply the basic tenets of the Christian faith laid out for us, then that is a very strong indication that they are true Believers in Christ, even if they err on other doctrinal issues.

    The Apostle's Creed


    I believe in God, the Father almighty,
    creator of heaven and earth.

    I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
    who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
    born of the Virgin Mary,
    suffered under Pontius Pilate,
    was crucified, died, and was buried;
    he descended to the dead.
    On the third day he rose again;
    he ascended into heaven,
    he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
    and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.

    I believe in the Holy Spirit,
    the holy catholic church,
    the communion of saints,
    the forgiveness of sins,
    the resurrection of the body,
    and the life everlasting. AMEN.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    I do too. I don't agree with him on absolutely everything, but I agree with him more than I do most others. He was even extremely anti-war, which I think is awesome...
    I cannot say I am able to pick out a *big name* with whom I am in full agreement with, doctrinally speaking. However, there are so many amazing teachers out there, true stalwarts of the faith as examples to us who rightly handle the Word of God from long past to present...we each must continue to be transformed by the renewing of our minds.

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    [QUOTE=The 5 solas;3949157]




    I am speaking of hyper calvinism in the historical sense. It would include those who deny the concept of common grace and that God indeed has a general love for the world, elect and non-elect. (John 3:16, Matt 5:45) They deny that the call of the gospel should go out to the non-elect, and that it is a sincere call to repentance. (2 Corinthians 5:20)
    This seems like Phil Johnson's definition. What's odd to me about it is that A.W. Pink is a hyper-calvinist according to it.

    With regards to the above, I agree with common grace and that God has love for the non-elect, but I do not think denial of these doctrines qualifies as "hyper-calvinism", nor would I see either of these mistakes as necessarily leading to preaching a false gospel. And I have seen people who preach the true gospel, albeit perhaps unnecessarily detailed, who deny these doctrines.

    I also don't see the "sincere offer" denial is hyper-calvinist either, and for what its worth I don't really know what it means. I believe God genuinely offers salvation to all who will repent and turn to Christ, but not everyone will, only those who he has chosen.

    I define a hyper-calvinist as someone who doesn't preach the gospel, who denies the general gospel call, or who denies the duty of all men without exception to believe.

    They take God's sovereignty but seem to forget that the Scriptures teach that even in light of election, we are still morally and spiritually responsible for our rejection of Christ. These are the ones who can bear the label, Frozen Chosen.
    One can completely deny common grace, that God has any love whatsoever for the non-elect, and that there is any offer of salvation for them, and still say that they are morally and spiritually responsible for rejecting Christ. A person who does so is in error but not a hyper-calvinist IMO. My problem with that term is that it connotates blatant heresy so I want to reserve it for things that actually are heretical. I have an issue with using the same terms to describe A.W. Pink that would be used to describe the guys at Predestinarian Network.



    Yes it does, it is wrong doctrine. It steals the glory from God for what He has done for us, through the sacrifice of Christ and takes the power from His hands and puts it into the hands of feeble humans. However.... although I believe they are definitely wrong and it does affect their overall understanding of Scripture in more ways than they realize...they can still be saved.
    I'm not going to argue with this one. I agree on the face of it. However, I do think sometimes Calvinists and Reformed Christians are too quick to give false assurances to other people, especially when the people in question claim that they could not worship God if Calvinism were true, or they start saying Calvinists are heretics, or they are fully informed on the issues but still reject Calvinism because they can't stand it, or things like that.
    I am fond of listing out the great teachers, preachers and church fathers who embraced the Doctrines of Grace. I do this to help illustrate that when people say I am not a Christian and I am going to hell....that they might realize how many of the most respected men and best theological minds in history, also embraced them. In doing so, I will offer the same opportunity to them. For instance, John Wesley did not believe in the Doctrines of Grace but from what I have read, I will certainly not say that he was not a true Believer, I think he was. Then there are those like Charles Finney whom I think did the church much damage and there is reason to question his faith, to be sure.
    I have serious, serious questions about John Wesley. However, I realize that he lived in a polemical error and that calling something a "doctrine of demons" may have been standard. But, he's dead, so I don't care. He is wherever God wants him, ultimately.
    If someone agrees with the Apostle's Creed, which is simply the basic tenets of the Christian faith laid out for us, then that is a very strong indication that they are true Believers in Christ, even if they err on other doctrinal issues.

    The Apostle's Creed


    I believe in God, the Father almighty,
    creator of heaven and earth.

    I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
    who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
    born of the Virgin Mary,
    suffered under Pontius Pilate,
    was crucified, died, and was buried;
    he descended to the dead.
    On the third day he rose again;
    he ascended into heaven,
    he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
    and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.

    I believe in the Holy Spirit,
    the holy catholic church,
    the communion of saints,
    the forgiveness of sins,
    the resurrection of the body,
    and the life everlasting. AMEN.
    I think its possible for someone to subscribe to this and still fall into the damnable heresies of Galatians 1:8. Just for curiosity, do you believe that baptismal regenerationists are saved? (I say "are saved" because certainly anyone CAN be saved at some point.)
    I cannot say I am able to pick out a *big name* with whom I am in full agreement with, doctrinally speaking. However, there are so many amazing teachers out there, true stalwarts of the faith as examples to us who rightly handle the Word of God from long past to present...we each must continue to be transformed by the renewing of our minds.
    Amen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post

    This seems like Phil Johnson's definition. What's odd to me about it is that A.W. Pink is a hyper-calvinist according to it.
    I really like Phil Johnson and think that his teachings are pretty sound. I certainly do not view Pink as a hyper calvinist at all, so perhaps I need to look more closely at my understanding of it. In my own personal experience, which is never anything but subjective, I know...I have never met a true hyper-calvinist, so it is all theory to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    I believe God genuinely offers salvation to all who will repent and turn to Christ, but not everyone will, only those who he has chosen.
    I totally agree with this statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    I define a hyper-calvinist as someone who doesn't preach the gospel, who denies the general gospel call, or who denies the duty of all men without exception to believe.
    I had the understanding that hyper calvinists, although definitely not big on preaching the gospel....did think that the elect should hear it. That is one of the problems though, right? You cannot tell who the elect are before they are saved.


    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    One can completely deny common grace, that God has any love whatsoever for the non-elect, and that there is any offer of salvation for them, and still say that they are morally and spiritually responsible for rejecting Christ. A person who does so is in error but not a hyper-calvinist IMO. My problem with that term is that it connotates blatant heresy so I want to reserve it for things that actually are heretical. I have an issue with using the same terms to describe A.W. Pink that would be used to describe the guys at Predestinarian Network.
    Yes, I can understand why you say this about the connotation of hyper calvinism. I clearly have more to learn. It does irk me when people do misuse that term and paint all Calvinists with it.

    I have never heard of Predestinarian Network, is that really something on tv? Betcha they don't have high ratings! lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    I do think sometimes Calvinists and Reformed Christians are too quick to give false assurances to other people, especially when the people in question claim that they could not worship God if Calvinism were true, or they start saying Calvinists are heretics, or they are fully informed on the issues but still reject Calvinism because they can't stand it, or things like that.
    Oh I agree. I think I am majorly failing in expressing myself. I do not wish to put across the idea that I am some kind of all inclusive, wishy washy person who thinks everyone who says Lord Lord, is saved. I do think that I am reacting to the general feeling on this board where everyone is so quick to judge others and send them on their way to hell because of some of their doctrines. I have never been told I am not a Christian and that I am going to hell, as many times as I have in these two weeks, compared to all the rest of my life! lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    But, he's dead, so I don't care. He is wherever God wants him, ultimately.
    lol true story


    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    Just for curiosity, do you believe that baptismal regenerationists are saved? (I say "are saved" because certainly anyone CAN be saved at some point.)
    I would say no because they are putting their faith in the act of Baptism, instead of the finished work of Jesus Christ. They believe it is salvific, which it is not.

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    There have been a great many Arminian soul winners, if God is blessing their ministry who can withstand? yet the damage done by their doctrines and the method of their ministry is great too.

    Wesley in fact was not Arminian, neither in doctrine or methodology. But he is credited with a work which could never have been begun by him....he came along on the coat tails of Whitefield. You have got to love Wesley.

    It is my own observation that Arminianism produces no lasting work, it is like kick starting...for example a very great many have been saved through the ministry of Billy Graham [praise God] but nothing could be described as revival, there is nothing ongoing or lasting. If Finney made a name for himself who reads him now? and those who do read him who attempts to put his teachings into practice?

    They are like mules....they produce no offspring because they are hybrids of grace and works.

    Evangelism grinds to a halt under Arminianism. The church because of the overwhelming prevalence of Freewill doctrine is like the seashore when the tide is out, there are many puddles with many fishies doing extraordinary acrobatics to stay under water. But there is hope.....the full tide of Free Grace evangelism must come in sometime, sweeping all before it.
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    tl

    There have been a great many Arminian soul winners, if God is blessing their ministry who can withstand?
    Thats a lie, preaching a lie and believing a lie gets you no where but in a lost state, and you think you are believer ! Gal 1:8-9 !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    tl



    Thats a lie, preaching a lie and believing a lie gets you no where but in a lost state, and you think you are believer ! Gal 1:8-9 !
    You are not a believer, you are a knower for you believe that salvation consists in correct knowledge of doctrine. You come under those of who Paul said "if any man thinks he knows something let him acknowledge that he knows nothing yet as he should."

    Salvation does not consist in correct knowledge of doctrines.

    You have great darkness of soul, but unlike you I do not judge people who differ in judgement to me to be unsaved.

    If Arminians believe that Christ hath borne their sins and was raised for their justification then whatever else they believe they will be saved. Chirp and mutter as much as you please.

    B57 it is just plumb foolish to believe that you only are saved...I've never yet seen you hint that anyone else on TOL might be.
    Last edited by Totton Linnet; June 30th, 2014 at 09:00 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post

    Wesley in fact was not Arminian, neither in doctrine or methodology. But he is credited with a work which could never have been begun by him....he came along on the coat tails of Whitefield. You have got to love Wesley.
    John Wesley was a 5 point arminian, soteriologically. He would have held views such as perfectionism, which are not arminian, but with regards to salvation he held to all 5 points.

    I would be interested to know why you think that he was not.

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    you are a knower for you believe that salvation consists in correct knowledge of doctrine.
    It does, the bible teaches that foolish person. 1 Tim 2:4

    4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    The word knowledge here is the greek word epignōsis and means:

    I.precise and correct knowledge Do you know what precise means ? Go look it up in a dictionary !

    Titus 1:1

    Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

    2 Thess 2:13

    13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    You cannot be experiencing Salvation without believing the Truth. That what arminians preach is not truth, they are lies, and since you agree with them, you believe lies also !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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