BRXII Battle talk

PastorKevin said:

Wouldn't you find it offensive if you gave your only Son that you loved with all of your heart as a sacrifice to save someone from being burned in fire, and they utterly rejected that gift and refused to accept it?

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A fire that I myself have created with the express purpose of tormenting people forever.

Kevin, I didn't ask you to speak for God. I asked you what you thought of the idea of burning people alive as a form of punishment. Particularly when the mode of punishment has been arranged so that this "burning alive" will never end, because first the offenders have been given new bodies that will not be able to be fully destroyed by the fire.

Is this something you would do to your subjects, were you king for a day?

considering ultimate destinies............

considering ultimate destinies............

***

Hi PK,

We shall bypass the former sharings for our perspectives have been amply articulated. We shall let the Spirit of Truth illumine and teach what is resonant with divine Reality.


I will share some on the subject of annihilation noting your stance on it. Among the 3 primary destiny-potentials being ET, annihilation and UR(universal reconciliation)....in order...ET is the most abominable. The second option of 'annihilation' carries with it its own problems for the concept of souls being 'destroyed' somehow or expunged utterly from existence involves certain metaphysical complexities obviously. This option is surely in some ways more 'merciful' than ET, but problematic nonetheless....as you would agree per your belief in souls existing forever 'somewhere'. I am open to some souls actually suffering the 'second death' as being a transformation of some kind, but the exact details cannot be fully comprehended, although we might speculate on the 'process'. We know there are variable beliefs about the nature/definition of the 'second death', etc....and all must be taken into account in ones research.

Finally as we consider UR, it is most consistent with the Universality of the divine Nature and Will.....as each soul as an offspring of God is ultimately restored to God. This gives God all the glory, honor and power as drawing all to Himself...this drawing Power of Love being all-mighty. This upholds the Triumph of divine Will. Anything less is to make God inadequate, impotent. Of course the issues of 'free will' enter the arena, yet all wills are still forever within the divine Providence and eternal government of the Supreme WILL. Love is Supreme or it is not. The divine Will upholding all existence is 'sovereign' or it is not. Only if creature-will can in fact choose total rejection of God and make a 'final' and impending choice for self-destruction and this being allowed by divine Providence...can we accept such. - given the possibility of final soul-death....this choice is only granted or possible after all opportunities of salvation have been dismissed and a soul has totally and finally chosen to forfeit its divine potential and suvivability-value. - only God and his higher tribunals can pass such a judgment upon any soul IMO. (if I took on a concept of soul-annihilation it would probably be one similar as described in the Urantia Papers).

There is still much to consider as we reflect on Gods nature and will, the destiny of souls, and the ultimation of His intended desire for creation being fulfilled. The Bible does not provide every detail neither can one draw final conclusions based upon a few passages fraught with translation-difficulties and alternative interpretations. Naturally if one is using only the Bible (limiting oneself to that collection of books as the 'end-all' of revelation or truth)...then their viewpoint will obviously be imperfect, conditioned and biased....all basing the estimation of truth on 'something written'...assuming it is true because its somehow 'Gods Word'. (this is feeble when not also applying such conclusions under the light of reason). However, when this smacks rationality, spiritual intelligence and logic in the face, its incredible that one still holds to a literal translation of these writings, which fly against the very Spirit of God. But, hey,...that some theology for ya.



paul

Balder said:

A fire that I myself have created with the express purpose of tormenting people forever.

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Wrong Balder. Scripture clearly indicates why God created the Lake of Fire and it was not for the reason you articulated above. Do you know why He created the Lake of Fire? It was for Satan and the angels who fell in sin. Mankind didn't seal his fate there until he rebelled against God in the same way as Satan did. By sin and pride.

The Lake of Fire was not part of God's original creation, I don't believe. Because when God created everything (including the angel Lucifer) He said it was good. Therefore a place for sin to be punished eternally would not have been there. When Satan and the fallen angels tried to take over Heaven, God cast them out and sometime after that, God created the Lake of Fire for the "devil and his angels" according to the Bible.

Kevin, I didn't ask you to speak for God.

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God speaks for Himself quite well in the Bible thank you.

I asked you what you thought of the idea of burning people alive as a form of punishment.

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It is judgment. When a criminal is judged they get what they deserve. A sinner deserves nothing but to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. I deserved nothing but to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire as a sinner. But God saved me because I believed in Him and put my trust in Him, and decided to live my life for HIM. Anyone else who is willing to do that receives God's free gift of grace.

Particularly when the mode of punishment has been arranged so that this "burning alive" will never end, because first the offenders have been given new bodies that will not be able to be fully destroyed by the fire.

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The creation is shaking his fist at the Creator and telling Him what is and isn't fair.

Is this something you would do to your subjects, were you king for a day?

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You are approaching the issue from the worldy humanistic standpoint and not from the standpoint of a holy and loving God, who doesn't want His perfect Heaven marred by sin. He didn't have to send His Son Jesus to die for your sins Balder. He could have just let us go and receive the fate we deserve as wretched sinners.

Freelight said:

The Bible does not provide every detail

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The Bible provides every detail we need to know. It provides all of the important stuff. Because you reject what it says, you attempt these little spins around it. How sad for you and those who follow your teaching.

I mean this with all sincereity: Freelight, I feel sorry for you on judgment day!

neither can one draw final conclusions based upon a few passages fraught with translation-difficulties and alternative interpretations.

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Sorry but it is wayyyy more than a few. Go back and read the Battle Royale sometime. There are tons and tons of Scripture references that I listed in it. Many of them are the very words of Christ Himself. But you deny and reject Him as the "Way, the truth, and the life".

Naturally if one is using only the Bible (limiting oneself to that collection of books as the 'end-all' of revelation or truth)...

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God's Word is the revelation of truth, no other books compare.

then their viewpoint will obviously be imperfect, conditioned and biased....all basing the estimation of truth on 'something written'...assuming it is true because its somehow 'Gods Word'.

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Sorry but it is not "somehow God's Word". It is God's Word.

(this is feeble when not also applying such conclusions under the light of reason).

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Only under the reason of man. You can take your man-made reasonings and I'll stick with God's Word. Thanks.

However, when this smacks rationality, spiritual intelligence and logic in the face, its incredible that one still holds to a literal translation of these writings, which fly against the very Spirit of God.

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Freelight: the Spirit of God inspired the Scriptures to be written. ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God. So the Spirit's own Word flies in His face? Like I said, you are best sticking with the metaphysical mumbo jumbo and stop this facade. You are no Christian. You are on your way to an eternity apart from God. I am trying to warn you. You can ignore the warning if you like, just as those mocking Noah ignored his warnings. But God's judgment still came. And His judgment is coming again. Only this time He will judge the world through fire!

I will let God speak through His Word!

2 Peter 2:1-6

1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;
They were condemned to destruction in fire to serve as an example to those afterward who would live ungodly!

2 Peter 3:5-7

5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:10-13

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

There is a day of judgment coming. Deny it all you like. It is coming. Are you prepared?

PastorKevin said:

Wouldn't you find it offensive if you gave your only Son that you loved with all of your heart as a sacrifice to save someone from being burned in fire, and they utterly rejected that gift and refused to accept it?

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If I had attained or already dwelled at a level of compassion and strength that enabled me to do such a thing in the first place, I would be cognizant enough of their dysfunction to be above being offended by it.

Wouldn't you? :think:

Redfin said:

If I had attained or already dwelled at a level of compassion and strength that enabled me to do such a thing in the first place, I would be cognizant enough of their dysfunction to be above being offended by it.

Wouldn't you? :think:

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Hey Redfin, let me know when you get over your disease.

theology set

theology set

***

Ok PK. Looks like your theology is 'set'. Good for you eh. You get to make into Gods kingdom because 'you're living for the Lord' while everyone not 'living for the Lord' gets a one-way ticket after they die into a burning inferno of eternal and everlasting torment to suffer and agonize for all eternity, just because somebody wrote it down. Brilliant.



paul

PK, I trust that there is love in your heart for God and for man, but we obviously have a very different understanding of love and compassion. You think it is "just" to subject sentient beings to eternal bodily torment in a burning lake; you think the good is served by inflicting unending and inescapable pain on creatures.

I most certainly do not. Nor do I believe, from the bottom of my heart, that a just God would.

freelight said:

Ok PK. Looks like your theology is 'set'. Good for you eh.

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Good for anyone who places their faith and trust in Jesus Christ and agrees to let God be in command of their life as opposed to themselves.

You get to make into Gods kingdom because 'you're living for the Lord'

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I make it into God's kingdom based on the fact that I have trusted in the sacrifice for my sins that He provided and nothing else. See Eph 2:8-9 and Romans 10:9-13

while everyone not 'living for the Lord' gets a one-way ticket after they die into a burning inferno of eternal and everlasting torment to suffer and agonize for all eternity,

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Everyone who dies in their sins and never accepts the sacrifice offered by God of His only Son the Lamb of God does get a one-way ticket after they die.

Nice attempt to make me out to be someone who is arrogant. But your own arrogance is shining through. I never claimed I deserved the grace of God anymore than anyone else. I just agreed to take God at His Word, and I am glad that I can trust Him and His promises.

just because somebody wrote it down.

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God the Holy Spirit inspired the Word to be written. Not just "Somebody". Your hatred of the truth in God's Word is shining forth for someone who claims to only believe in "Love".

Brilliant.

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God is brilliant. God is awesome. God gave us His Word so that we could get to know Him and have a relationship with Him. Too bad you do not.

Freelight, let me know when you get over your disease.

Balder said:

PK, I trust that there is love in your heart for God and for man,

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Thanks Balder. But don't tell Freelight. To him anyone who might give a neg-rep is a devil of hatred. :chuckle:

but we obviously have a very different understanding of love and compassion.

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Agreed.

You think it is "just" to subject sentient beings to eternal bodily torment in a burning lake;

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It is just for sin to be punished by the second death just as God's Word says will happen. It is just for wickedness to be purged from the universe so that we never have to experience pain, death, sickness, suffering, etc.... again. It is just for a righteous God to set the rules and standards by which people can enter His perfect Heaven.

you think the good is served by inflicting unending and inescapable pain on creatures.

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I do? Then why do I warn people not to go there? :think:

I most certainly do not. Nor do I believe, from the bottom of my heart, that a just God would.

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Does a just God enact justice Balder?

Here are some definitions of justice from www.dictionary.com

1. the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness: to uphold the justice of a cause.

2. rightfulness or lawfulness, as of a claim or title; justness of ground or reason: to complain with justice.

3. the moral principle determining just conduct.

4. conformity to this principle, as manifested in conduct; just conduct, dealing, or treatment.

5. the administering of deserved punishment or reward.

6. the maintenance or administration of what is just by law, as by judicial or other proceedings: a court of justice.

7. judgment of persons or causes by judicial process: to administer justice in a community.

8. a judicial officer; a judge or magistrate.

9. (initial capital letter) Also called Justice Department. the Department of Justice.
—Idioms10. bring to justice, to cause to come before a court for trial or to receive punishment for one's misdeeds: The murderer was brought to justice.

11. do justice, a. to act or treat justly or fairly.
b. to appreciate properly: We must see this play again to do it justice.
c. to acquit in accordance with one's abilities or potentialities: He finally got a role in which he could do himself justice as an actor.

PastorKevin said:

Thanks Balder. But don't tell Freelight. To him anyone who might give a neg-rep is a devil of hatred. :chuckle:

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Well, I don't think he deserved a neg rep for expressing his beliefs about God's love and compassion, even if you do have a different understanding of how they manifest.

PK said:

It is just for sin to be punished by the second death just as God's Word says will happen. It is just for wickedness to be purged from the universe so that we never have to experience pain, death, sickness, suffering, etc.... again. It is just for a righteous God to set the rules and standards by which people can enter His perfect Heaven.

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If it is just for wickedness and suffering to be purged from the universe, then annihilation seems the way to go, if universalism is anathema. Unending torment in a lake of fire ensures that wickedness and suffering will endure forever in the universe, even if they are kept out of sight of those enjoying themselves in heaven.

PK said:

I do? Then why do I warn people not to go there? :think:

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Yes, I believe you would prefer people to avoid that fate, if at all possible. But you do not make the next step: not only is such a fate undesirable, it is evil.

PK said:

Does a just God enact justice Balder?

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Sure, I would expect a just God to enact justice. What is perfect justice? If justice means restoring things to their Godly, intended order, then that would be the restoration of perfect goodness in the universe, without the blemish of corruption or suffering or hatred. Preserving these things forever, and in fact compounding them by giving people imperishable bodies before tossing them into a fire, does NOT seem like the way this perfect restoration of goodness would be achieved.

Best wishes,

Balder

Balder said:

PK, I trust that there is love in your heart for God and for man, but we obviously have a very different understanding of love and compassion. You think it is "just" to subject sentient beings to eternal bodily torment in a burning lake; you think the good is served by inflicting unending and inescapable pain on creatures.

I most certainly do not. Nor do I believe, from the bottom of my heart, that a just God would.

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:thumb:

PastorKevin said:

Thanks Balder. But don't tell Freelight. To him anyone who might give a neg-rep is a devil of hatred. :chuckle:

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This is ridiculous PK. ha ha. The Truth of Gods Love stands,...and True Justice of LIFE is for all of Gods children to attain their divine potential and fulfill their purpose for existence. Thats the Purpose of LIFE. Burning souls forever in a lake of fire with no hope of remedy, reform or rehabilitation is even more ridiculous and illogical to spiritual intelligence let alone Love.


paul

PastorKevin said:

Hey Redfin, let me know when you get over your disease.

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Hey yourself, Kev. Let me know if you ever come up with any actual answers to my questions... :chuckle:

Redfin said:

Hey yourself, Kev. Let me know if you ever come up with any actual answers to my questions... :chuckle:

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When you get over your disease: "FalseTeacheraTosis" let me know.

red77 said:

Saying that God had created an imperfect world was never my argument, i merely pointed that out to you after you had seemingly assumed that it was

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I did not.

Where has God said that he won't restore his own world? I see it written in plenty of sriptures that this is what God intends to do

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He restored His earth at Genesis 1:3-31, Genesis 2:1-2.

If you read it literally then you should have no problem with accepting that God is the saviour of all men and not just believers, that's what the verse says......

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The verse does not say what you assume it means. You're making a strawman argument to force your point.

:idunno: then.....please explain how there can't be some place or realm/dimension or whatever if millions of people are kept in a state of eternal sufering, and how sin and evil aren't fully vanquished as a result? How is any of this not logical?

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I don't have to explain it. It's your assumption, you explain it.

All i've asked is for you to point to any of your own arguments which you feel that I haven't addressed, i just can't do any more than that, surely i'm being reasonable about it?

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All your doing is drawing strawman assumptions about what I may or may not believe. No, it defies reason.

where is it clear exactly? And why is not just as much a fantastic assumption to believe that God can't save everyone? :think:

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God can do what He wants. He has said what He will do regarding salvation. You don't like that, so you've invented some scheme where He saves everybody no matter.

That isn't what I'm teeling you although I don't believe in absolute free will anyway, what you're saying is that if Jesus's sacrifice is 100% successful it somehow renders it invalid, which makes no sense, and I have no idea why you think that the salvation of everyone would also invalidate the resolution of good and evil, you'll have to explain that one....

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God has said what He will do regarding the saved and the unsaved. That resolves good and evil to HIS satisfaction. Not yours, most likely. Reality hits hard.

why would it? i can believe he will restore his own creation as this is what he states as his intent

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Already restored. He has no need to restore it again. He will revitalize it according to Revelation 21:1 and on.

Balder said:

Please interpret Revelation 20:10 in conjunction with the following passage:

And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

...and tell me if you think God plans to subject individuals not found in the Book of Life to the same punishment and torment as Satan.

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Sure look like, doesn't it? Is there some point you're trying to make?

PastorKevin said:

They are consciously tormented day and night forever and ever and they never get out. Which is exactly what the verse says. Anyone who denies it denies the Word of God and calls God a liar.

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Seems that the Universal Sentimentalists had no answer, none at all. Have any idea why they would ignore Revelation 20:10?

Frank Ernest said:

Sure look like, doesn't it? Is there some point you're trying to make?

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Well, I talked about God throwing people alive into a lake of fire, and you asked me if that's what God was really planning to do, so I pulled out the verse that most "eternal damnationists" use to support the idea that that's indeed what he's going to do.

Frank Ernest said:

I did not.

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You said that to restore the world meant that there was a flaw in it from the outset, I pointed out that any flaws would not have emanated from God but man...

He restored His earth at Genesis 1:3-31, Genesis 2:1-2.

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Thats why Jesus came to save the world then is it?

The verse does not say what you assume it means. You're making a strawman argument to force your point.

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Um, then just what does it say Frank??! i don't have to assume anything if I read it literally! It's crystal clear!! Please do enlighten me as to how I am somehow misinterpreting this verse.... :liberals:

I don't have to explain it. It's your assumption, you explain it.

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Copout, i've provided logic and an explanation, you just don't have a counter as to what is basic sense, if people exist suffering then in some form they have to exist somewhere to do so going by the parameters of what we have as current logic, it's up to you to make some kind of argument as to why I am somehow wrong otherwise you just dont have any type of argument.....

All your doing is drawing strawman assumptions about what I may or may not believe. No, it defies reason.

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i only know that you don't believe that God will restore his own handiwork, that you're unsure as to whether people are kept in a state of eternal suffering or just wiped out of existence, these are your own admissions not mine....

God can do what He wants. He has said what He will do regarding salvation. You don't like that, so you've invented some scheme where He saves everybody no matter.

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I didn't 'invent' anything, I didn't write the verses where God intends to save the world, to be all in all, to be the saviour of all men etc, for some reason you believe and think that he cannot do this.....

God has said what He will do regarding the saved and the unsaved. That resolves good and evil to HIS satisfaction. Not yours, most likely. Reality hits hard.

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But you aren't even sure as to what this reality "is"! So how on earth can you categorically say that God will not restore everything that he has created?

Already restored. He has no need to restore it again. He will revitalize it according to Revelation 21:1 and on.

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What, by losing a lot of his own creation he 'revitalises' it and it's restored? Come off it.....