User Tag List

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 46

Thread: Matthew 4:17 Proves the Future is Open

  1. #1
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    14,212
    Thanks
    1,294
    Thanked 8,804 Times in 5,789 Posts

    Mentioned
    105 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147846

    Matthew 4:17 Proves the Future is Open

    If the future is closed then the kingdom will not be "at hand" or "nigh at hand" until the Lord Jesus returns to the earth:

    "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand (eggys)" (Lk.21:27-31).

    Here the words "nigh at hand" are translated from the Greek word eggys and that word means "of times imminent and soon to come pass" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

    If the future is closed and everything is set in stone then it would be impossible that the Lord Jesus would have told the Jews that the kingdom was at hand in the first century because it cannot possibly be "at hand" until the Lord Jesus returns to the earth. But that is exactly what He told them:

    "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand (eggizō)" (Mt.4:17).

    Here the words "at hand" are translated from the Greek word eggizō, and that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).

    In a note in The Scofield Study Bible we read that "the Biblical term 'at hand' or 'near' is never a positive affirmation that the person or thing said to be at hand will immediately appear, but only that that person or thing has the quality of imminency" (Note at Matthew 4:17).

    Something that has the quality of imminency is something that could possibly happen at any moment.

    Since the Lord Jesus thought that the kingdom could be brought in during the time when He walked the earth then that means that He did not think the kingdom could not possibly be ushered until He returns to the earth. So He did not think that the time when the kingdom would come to the earth was set in stone.

    So from what the Lord Jesus said at Matthew 4:17 it is clear that the future is open!
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; October 6th, 2018 at 03:23 PM.

  2. #2
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    14,212
    Thanks
    1,294
    Thanked 8,804 Times in 5,789 Posts

    Mentioned
    105 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147846
    We have already had 80 views of this thread and not even one Calvinist has even attempted to prove that I am wrong.

    Imagine that!

    Those who are so quick to correct others remain strangely silent about what is said in the OP!

  3. #3
    Over 3000 post club
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    3,141
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 427 Times in 244 Posts

    Blog Entries
    2
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    27421
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    We have already had 80 views of this thread and not even one Calvinist has even attempted to prove that I am wrong.

    Imagine that!

    Those who are so quick to correct others remain strangely silent about what is said in the OP!
    This is my first viewing of this post. There are few Calvinists on this Forum so your stats are not surprising. What is more surprising is that you've had 80 views and no open view believers have chimed in. You greatly outnumber us. Looks like a failure on your part to deliver a coherent message! I'll get back to you when I'm not typing on a phone.
    Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
    Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

  4. #4
    SHAZAM! Lighthouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Anderson, IN
    Posts
    20,794
    Thanks
    1,313
    Thanked 13,509 Times in 10,306 Posts

    Blog Entries
    1
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147889
    Quote Originally Posted by Saved.One.by.Grace View Post
    This is my first viewing of this post. There are few Calvinists on this Forum so your stats are not surprising. What is more surprising is that you've had 80 views and no open view believers have chimed in. You greatly outnumber us. Looks like a failure on your part to deliver a coherent message! I'll get back to you when I'm not typing on a phone.
    It's not the incoherency, necessarily; it's his pigheadedness.


  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Lighthouse For Your Post:

    LoneStar (April 23rd, 2016)

  6. #5
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    14,212
    Thanks
    1,294
    Thanked 8,804 Times in 5,789 Posts

    Mentioned
    105 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147846
    Quote Originally Posted by Saved.One.by.Grace View Post
    Looks like a failure on your part to deliver a coherent message!.
    No coherent message?

    I made myself absolutely clear.

    The Calvinists teach that the future is closed. And according to them it is set in stone that the kingdom cannot possibly be at hand until the Lord Jesus returns to the earth:

    "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).

    If it is set in stone that the kingdom could not possibly be at hand until the Lord Jesus returns to earth then it is inconceivable that whileHe walked on the earth the Lord Jesus would tell anyone that the kingdom is at hand.

    But that is exactly what He told the Jews:

    "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Mt.4:17).

    Not one person who insists that the future is already determined has even attempted to explain why the Lord Jesus said that the kingdom is at hand since they teach that it is set in stone that it cannot be at hand until the Lord Jesus returns to earth.

  7. #6
    Over 3000 post club
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    3,141
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 427 Times in 244 Posts

    Blog Entries
    2
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    27421
    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    It's not the incoherency, necessarily; it's his pigheadedness.
    [I owe you a pos. rep.]
    Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
    Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

  8. #7
    Over 3000 post club
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    3,141
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 427 Times in 244 Posts

    Blog Entries
    2
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    27421
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    No coherent message?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I made myself absolutely clear.
    Afraid not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    The Calvinists teach that the future is closed. And according to them it is set in stone that the kingdom cannot possibly be at hand until the Lord Jesus returns to the earth:
    Calvinists are not of one accord with respect to end-times theology. Aren't you aware of that? So lumping all Calvinists into one belief system is stupid. My mistake, I gave you more credit than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).
    Yes, Calvinist quote scripture which you seem to weasel out responding to all the time. I've explained this passage on another of your threads. You act like this is some magic bullet wiping out Calvinism, oh bloviated one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    If it is set in stone that the kingdom could not possibly be at hand until the Lord Jesus returns to earth then it is inconceivable that whileHe walked on the earth the Lord Jesus would tell anyone that the kingdom is at hand.
    Asked and answered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    But that is exactly what He told the Jews:
    "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Mt.4:17).
    Asked and answered.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Not one person who insists that the future is already determined has even attempted to explain why the Lord Jesus said that the kingdom is at hand since they teach that it is set in stone that it cannot be at hand until the Lord Jesus returns to earth.
    You are very confused, Jerry. There's various types of Calvinists, as previousliy said.
    Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
    Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

  9. #8
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    14,212
    Thanks
    1,294
    Thanked 8,804 Times in 5,789 Posts

    Mentioned
    105 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147846
    Quote Originally Posted by Saved.One.by.Grace View Post
    Calvinists are not of one accord with respect to end-times theology. Aren't you aware of that? So lumping all Calvinists into one belief system is stupid.
    You cannot even understand the most simple thing about the subject of this thread. It is not about end times events but instead about whether the future is open or closed.

    Now I will ask you a question. Do you think that the kingdom will be nigh at hand when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth with this verse in view?:

    "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).

    Please answer that question and we will proceed from there.

    There's various types of Calvinists, as previousliy said.
    So there are some Calvinists who believe that the future is open and God has not been predetermined that only some will be saved?

  10. #9
    ☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) ☜☜☜☜☞☞☞☞ A Calvinist! ☜☜☜☜☜ Ask Mr. Religion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Chandler, Arizona USA
    Posts
    6,831
    Thanks
    4,542
    Thanked 4,026 Times in 2,299 Posts

    Blog Entries
    148
    Mentioned
    88 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)



    Rep Power
    2147704
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    If the future is closed then the kingdom will not be "at hand" or "nigh at hand" until the Lord Jesus returns to the earth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    In a note in The Scofield Study Bible we read
    Best to lay this Scofield dispensationalism stuff down and never pick it up again. No wonder you are confused and cannot even make out the significance of the inauguration of the kingdom of the Lord with his earthly ministry.


    AMR
    Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



    Do you confess?
    Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
    AMR's Randomata Blog
    Learn Reformed Doctrine
    I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
    Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
    Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.
    The best TOL Social Group: here.
    If your username appears in blue and you have over 500 posts:
    Why?



  11. #10
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    14,212
    Thanks
    1,294
    Thanked 8,804 Times in 5,789 Posts

    Mentioned
    105 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147846
    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Best to lay this Scofield dispensationalism stuff down and never pick it up again. No wonder you are confused and cannot even make out the significance of the inauguration of the kingdom of the Lord with his earthly ministry.
    Now I will ask you a question. Do you think that the kingdom will be nigh at hand when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth with this passage in view?:

    "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).

    Please answer that question and we will proceed from there

  12. #11
    Over 3000 post club
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Trinidad & Tobago
    Posts
    3,252
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 73 Times in 72 Posts

    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    19677
    'The future' will be 'closed' very shortly.

    In the little remaining time please note:

    Romans 4:13
    King James Version (KJV)
    For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

    Galatians: 4 verses: 22 & 23
    King James Version (KJV)
    Abraham had two sons. One was born under the promise of the Spirit. The other was born under the flesh and laws.

    Galatians: 4 verse: 24
    King James Version (KJV)
    These things are allegory. That is, these events relate to the two covenants. These event actually exemplify the actual workings of the two covenants. One son was born according to the dictates of the Old Covenant. The other son was born according to the New Covenant.

    The Old covenant is the flesh, the written scriptures and the law. The son born according to the flesh was actually born according to the Old Covenant (the one given at mount Si'nai). The son born according to the New Covenant is according to the promise made to Abraham and his seed. The New Covenant is the promise made to Abraham and his seed that they will have the gift of the Spirit and they will inherit the world (re. Romans 4:13 KJV N.T.).

    Galatians: 4 verse: 29 confirms that the son who was born according to the Old Covenant persecuted the son who was born according to the New
    Covenant.

    This led to the fuller declaration (i.e. in more detail) about the promise made to Abraham and his seed in Galatians: 4 verse: 30

    In Romans: 14 verse: 13 it is confirmed that Abraham and his seed would inherit the world. In Romans: 14 verse: 30 the promise is confirmed in further details. It is confirmed that only one set of Abraham seed will inherit the world. The other will be cast out of the world.

    More precisely only the son of Abraham who was born according to the promise of the Spirit and his generations will inherit the world, in the fullness of time. They are the children of God. The son of Abraham who was born according to the flesh under obedience to the covenant given at mount Si'nai and his generations will be cast out of the world in the fullness of time. They are children of the flesh. They will not inherit the world together with children of God.


    Any questions?

  13. #12
    ☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) ☜☜☜☜☞☞☞☞ A Calvinist! ☜☜☜☜☜ Ask Mr. Religion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Chandler, Arizona USA
    Posts
    6,831
    Thanks
    4,542
    Thanked 4,026 Times in 2,299 Posts

    Blog Entries
    148
    Mentioned
    88 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)



    Rep Power
    2147704
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Now I will ask you a question. Do you think that the kingdom will be nigh at hand when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth with this passage in view?:

    "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).

    Please answer that question and we will proceed from there
    Jerry,

    The passage and its proper surrounding context has our Lord portending the coming siege of Jerusalem. Given the terrible scene presented by the Lord, the passage asks the audience to consider how much worse the Second Coming will be.

    Our Lord charges the disciples to look upon those things as neither doubtful nor distant, but as sure (verse 33) and very near (verse 32).

    Lastly, "redemption" here is the finalization of what Christ truly and perfectly obtained for deliverance of God's chosen children.

    So much for your "the future is open" view.

    Jerry, you seriously need to consult the opinions of the community of saints that have come before you before going public with these wild interpretations. The church interprets Scripture in community of the saints. You should "check in" with this community. And when you find your opinion outside the camp as it were, you should pause and ask yourself what you may be missing that would lead to the conclusions you are drawing. Arm yourself with trusted commentaries, lexicons, etc., to help you strengthen your walk of faith. Waving off these tools is self-righteous piety, contrary to Scripture that admonishes the saints to take every word captive such that we can defend our confessed views for the glory of God. Let's not practice chronological snobbery thinking that we in this present somehow have greater revelation than the saints that have come before us.

    AMR
    Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



    Do you confess?
    Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
    AMR's Randomata Blog
    Learn Reformed Doctrine
    I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
    Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
    Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.
    The best TOL Social Group: here.
    If your username appears in blue and you have over 500 posts:
    Why?



  14. #13
    Over 3000 post club
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    3,141
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 427 Times in 244 Posts

    Blog Entries
    2
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    27421
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Now I will ask you a question. Do you think that the kingdom will be nigh at hand when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth with this passage in view?:
    "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).
    Please answer that question and we will proceed from there
    I've answered this question on another thread. As I say again, I don't now and haven't for some time studied end times theology which this is. Jesus repeated the preaching of John the Baptist who preached the Kingdom of Heaven is near. Matthew 3:2, Matthew 10:7, Matthew 4:17, Mark 1:15, etc., were a call for repentence. What was He suppose to preach: The Kingdom of Heaven is thousands of years in the future? The Kingdom of Heaven is within you? They would not have understood the message as you apparently don't. God is Sovereign.
    Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
    Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

  15. #14
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    14,212
    Thanks
    1,294
    Thanked 8,804 Times in 5,789 Posts

    Mentioned
    105 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147846
    Quote Originally Posted by Saved.One.by.Grace View Post
    What was He suppose to preach: The Kingdom of Heaven is thousands of years in the future?
    Why did you not answer my question?

    And if it set in stone that the kingdom was not "at hand" or "imminent" in the first century then why did the Lord Jesus preach that it was imminent?

    The fact that He did preach what He did is proof positive that the future is open and at the time when the Lord Jesus preached what He did it was NOT set in stone that the kingdom could not come until He returns from heaven.

  16. #15
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    14,212
    Thanks
    1,294
    Thanked 8,804 Times in 5,789 Posts

    Mentioned
    105 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147846
    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    The passage and its proper surrounding context has our Lord portending the coming siege of Jerusalem. Given the terrible scene presented by the Lord, the passage asks the audience to consider how much worse the Second Coming will be.
    So? That does not change the fact that the Lord Jesus said that the kingdom will not be nigh at hand until He returns from heaven.

    Our Lord charges the disciples to look upon those things as neither doubtful nor distant, but as sure (verse 33) and very near (verse 32).
    Some were near and others have not yet happened.

    Lastly, "redemption" here is the finalization of what Christ truly and perfectly obtained for deliverance of God's chosen children.
    No, the redemption spoken of is one which will not happen until the Lord Jesus returns from heaven. Here is a description in regard to the redemption of Jerusalem:

    "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy" (Dan.9:24).

    So much for your "the future is open" view.
    You have said nothing that even comes close to proving that the open view is wrong. All you proved is that you are willing to pervert what the Lord Jesus said at Luke 21 so you can cling to your discredited eschatology.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us