Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
A Biblical dispensation or stewardship does not begin when someone is saved but instead when one becomes a "steward" assigned a specific responsibity by the Lord.
Theology Club: The Beginning of the Present Dispensation Was at Acts 13
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
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A Biblical dispensation or stewardship does not begin when someone is saved but instead when one becomes a "steward" assigned a specific responsibity by the Lord.
way 2 go
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which happend to Paul in Acts 9
Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
He did not go to the Gentiles until Acts 13. Here are three quotes from the pen of Paul where he speaks of a "dispensation" that has been committed or given to him:
"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you" (Eph. 3:2).
"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).
"...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).
The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace," a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:
"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).
The present dispensation began when the dispensational responsibility was first exercised by Paul. And since the following verse is speaking about Paul's gospel we can know that the present dispensation did not begin until he began to preach that gospel to Gentiles:
"But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being" (Gal.1:15-16).
I believe that Paul first preached the gospel of the grace of God to the Gentiles here:
"Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:46-48).
Paul's dispensational responsibility to preach the gospel of the grace of God to the Gentiles is spoken of here:
"As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away" (Acts 13:2-3).
Jerry,
Are you suggesting that Paul preached a different gospel to the Jews than what he preached to the Gentiles?
If so, what was the message he preached to the Jews?
If not then who cares? A dispensation is defined by what is preached not who it is preached to.
Also, if the dispensation didn't change with Paul's conversion then why Paul in the first place? God had 12 Spirit filled Apostles preaching to the Jews already. Where's the need for a 13th?
Resting in Him,
Clete
Are you suggesting that Paul preached a different gospel to the Jews than what he preached to the Gentiles?
If so, what was the message he preached to the Jews?
If not then who cares? A dispensation is defined by what is preached not who it is preached to.
Also, if the dispensation didn't change with Paul's conversion then why Paul in the first place? God had 12 Spirit filled Apostles preaching to the Jews already. Where's the need for a 13th?
Resting in Him,
Clete
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).
The Jews who believed that "good news" received life when they were born of God (Jn.20:31; 1Jn.5:1-5).
At the time when the Christ walked the earth He said that "salvation is of the Jews" (Jn.4:22). The Jews were to be the Lord's stewards to bring the knowedge of the Lord to the world (Mt.5:14). But since the nation did not recognize her promised Messiah that nation was temporarily cast aside as the Lord's steward to bring the whole world to the knowledge of the Lord Jesus.
And at the conversation of Paul he was appointed as the apostle to the Gentiles and given a new revelation to preach to the Gentiles (Gal.1:16). Preaching that gospel to the Gentiles was his stewardship (dispensational) responsibility. Since a new stewardship does not begin until the stewardship responsibility is exercised then it becomes obvious that the present dispensation did not begin until Paul preached the gospel of the grace of God to the Gentiles.
That happened at Acts 13:46-48.
way 2 go
Well-known member
when a man and a woman get married the both say there I do's
and the minister pronounces them man & wife the are married at that moment
acts 9
Act 9:20 And immediately he proclaimed Jesus in the synagogues, saying, "He is the Son of God."
Act 9:23 When many days had passed, the Jews plotted to kill him,
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
A Biblical "dispensation" or "stewardship" is not a marriage.
way 2 go
Well-known member
Paul was chosen specifically for a stewardship to...
Act 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel
Are you saying Paul had 3 dispensations ?
Act 9:20 And immediately he proclaimed Jesus in the synagogues, saying, "He is the Son of God."
Act 9:23 When many days had passed, the Jews plotted to kill him,
He is saying (proving) he hasn't a clue how to properly study out what actually marks the beginning of Paul's stewardship.
He is saying that he thinks it is found in a Greek word, combined with two or three passages, throw in whatever translation best allows his needed cherry picking, together with his notions and Anderson's and O'Hair's yet incomplete understanding of how to be consistent in one's application of the Dispensational Hermeneutic.
To that he adds that he is right, out of his desperate need to prove others wrong.
This desperate need of his to prove others wrong, together with this incompetence of his that his arrogance in his obviously profound insecurity prevents him from seeing things properly - is exactly what has him blind to begin with.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The dispensation which is the subject of this thread is in regard to this one dispensational responsibility and none other:
"But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles" (Gal.1:15).
At the time when the Christ walked the earth He said that "salvation is of the Jews" (Jn.4:22). The Jews were to be the Lord's stewards to bring the knowledge of the LORD to the world (Mt.5:14). But since the nation did not recognize her promised Messiah that nation was temporarily cast aside as the Lord's steward to bring the whole world to the knowledge of the Lord Jesus (Rom.11:15).
Later, when Paul was converted he was given a stewardship responsibility to the Gentiles and was appointed as the apostle of the Gentiles. He was also given a new revelation to preach to the Gentiles (Gal.1:16). Preaching that gospel to the Gentiles was his stewardship (dispensational) responsibility in regard to the dispensation which is the subject of this thread. Since a new stewardship does not begin until the stewardship responsibility is exercised then it becomes obvious that dispensation did not begin until Paul preached the gospel of the grace of God to the Gentiles.
They key is in a multiplicity of passages together, the collective, recurrent pattern of which reveal a general principle, or rule of thumb.
Each time Paul's writings, seek out what general principle Paul appears to be following, as there are more than one, and... given that he was laying new ground.
These general principles are then applied as a lens to what Paul is talking about as to who, what, when, where, why, and how.
Without them, Paul appears to be preaching Kingdom doctrine, and or asserting things as if they'd been prophesied before him, and or other kinds of conclusions people end up at.
Said general principles are how Paul's intended sense is then able to be understood.
Via the question 'all this that I am reading here; what general rule of thumb do they appear to point to as having been the general rule of thumb that Paul appears to have been applying, working from, had in mind?'
At times, he even mentions he is laying out, asserting, basing things, on one rule of thumb or another.
You "hear" them in his wording. For example:
Romans 11:
25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Galatians 6:
14. But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
And there are many other passages like that.
His use of "what shall we say then" is at times his asserting of a general rule of thumb he is going by, or operating under, for example.
Jerry is wrong. It was not because Israel failed, or was cast aside that Paul was called.
Paul was not some last minute plan B. There never was, nor is a Plan B.
Rather, one Two-Fold Purpose, Gen. 1:1; Eph. 3:15.
"Rather," God had planned "before the world" 1 Cor. 2:7, that "through their fall, salvation" would "come unto the Gentiles," Rom. 11:11.
Israel's commission is on hold, Rom 11:25-29, it was not replaced by this Acts 2 Dispensationalism of Jerry's.
The man does not even know his own position right.
way 2 go
Well-known member
what stewardship did Paul have when he went to
the children of Israel like God called him to do?
Act 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel
Further, why did Paul go "to you first" (Israel)? What did his going to them "first," prove?
It proved that the salvation of God to the Gentiles, without Israel" "fulness" as a nation "first" was not without merit.
It proved to Israel, that Israel had not only not wanted their Prophesied salvation, ending in their fall at Acts 7, but neither did most individual Jews, this side of Israel's fall, their nation now in Uncircumcision, Acts 7:51, want anything to do with this Mystery salvation that Paul preached, Acts 13:45-46; 18:6.
One aspect of what Paul is doing going "to the Jew first" is summarized in...
Acts 28:
25. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26. Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand
with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
Israel's temporary fall was prophesied, but that God would use that to do a work among Jew and Gentile - as if both were Gentiles (Uncircumcision) - was not.
In contrast to, but in alignment with, other aspects of Isaiah (Isaiah 60:1-3, for example) are Malachi 4's words, the fulfillment of which God's Mystery among the Gentiles, temporarily interrupted:
1. For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
He was a steward in the dispensation which was given to the Jewish believers here:
"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8).
None of those who were directly given this stewardship ever went unto the uttermost part of the earth. Instead, it was Paul who went into the Gentiles under a different stewardship.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You are out of control and obviously in need of professional help.
I will no longer respond to anything new which you say because my remarks just make your condition worse.
I pray in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ that you will seek help.
obviously you must agree that Paul was chosen and assigned as a steward specifically. In Acts 9:6 KJV - and certainly in Acts 9:15 KJV -
The dispensation was given to Paul in Acts 13...the gospel he taught he learned during 13 years in the wilderness, not a different gospel, the same gospel but how this same gospel would apply to the Gentiles who were never under the law.
The other possuls couldn't get their heads around it.
The other possuls couldn't get their heads around it.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Where do you find any of that in the Scriptures?