Is It True That Regeneration Precedes Faith?

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Yes a person cannot believe until he can hear. I'm not talking about hearing with the natural ear but a spiritual hearing from a spiritual ears. That comes by new birth by the Spirit.

The New Birth cannot be accomplished apart from the gospel:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​


Besides that, you haven't explained how believing the word of the Lord Jesus can result in spiritual life for those who are already spiritually alive. Don't you know that believing His word can only bring spiritual life to those who are dead spiritually?
 

beloved57

Well-known member
The New Birth cannot be accomplished apart from the gospel:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​


Besides that, you haven't explained how believing the word of the Lord Jesus can result in spiritual life for those who are already spiritually alive. Don't you know that believing His word can only bring spiritual life to those who are dead spiritually?

Yes the New Birth is solely by the Spirit. The Gospel brings it forth 2 Tim 1:10

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

The Spirit gives life from Christ not the Gospel Jn 663

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The word quickeneth means zōopoiéō:

make alive, give life, quicken
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The Spirit gives life from Christ not the Gospel Jn 663

Why do you refuse to believe the Lord Jesus when He made it plain that His "words" brings forth spiritual life?:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

One thing I found out about you is the fact that the Scriptures are not your final authority but instead what Calvinism teaches is your final authority.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Why do you refuse to believe the Lord Jesus when He made it plain that His "words" brings forth spiritual life?:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

One thing I found out about you is the fact that the Scriptures are not your final authority but instead what Calvinism teaches is your final authority.

There must be spiritual life first to perform spiritual action like hearing, seeing, believing, eating, drinking etc. Jesus gives life by His Spirit not by the Gospel. Once a person is spiritually alive then he can live by the Gospel food.
 

Nanja

Well-known member
There must be spiritual life first to perform spiritual action like hearing, seeing, believing, eating, drinking etc. Jesus gives life by His Spirit not by the Gospel. Once a person is spiritually alive then he can live by the Gospel food.

Exactly Brother !
 

clefty

New member
If you swap the word "Regeneration" with "Conviction of SIN and of Judgement by the Holy Spirit", you get closer to the truth of the matter. NOBODY comes to Christ without BEING DRAWN to Him by the Father, and "Conviction of SIN" is the beginning of FAITH - since you KNOW that God's THERE, that HE WANTS SOMETHING OF YOU, and that you've FALLEN SHORT of His requirements for you.

"REgeneration is the "Calvinist's "Work arouond" for their "Total Dapravity" theology. But the TRUTH is that NO CONVICTION OF SIN = NO CONVERSION.

Phew...thanks for showing up...

”No one came come to me unless drawn by the Father”...and we were all drawn on His blueprints of life...lol...is why we even live

Man was created in His IMAGE already a SPIRITUAL BEING...remains spiritual even though fallen...is why the battle is SPIRITUAL...you must CHOOSE

every baby is already sacred and a potential to Him “spawned” into existence by Sacred Love...by those sacredly JOINED by Him in Holy Matrimony (Ideally)

is why we dedicate infants TO KEEP THEM HIS...but reject infant baptism because they must choose...He gave ALL and not ALL will accept ALL He gives...

we also SEE Him in nature and FEEL Him in good health...in the world HE created...IS WHY He loves ALL OF IT...that WHOSOEVER believes...shall NOT persish when SPIRITUAL HOLINESS returns to it...is WHY we are temples to keep clean and pure...to OBEY His righteousness as He made us to be...

He would have NONE should perish IS WHY we are commissioned to go out into ALL nations teaching them to observe ALL He commanded of us to do...and dust our sandals if rejected...woe to those that refuse to hear...they are NOT in need of Him

It remains BY FAITH an understanding we need Him...Israel GROANED and was remembered by Him His covenant prior they only had to have FAITH in Him...receiving and accepting the Law later as SAVED by Him...

ALL need Salvation as ALL have sinned as the Law was made for Man...ALL hear then and must choose...

Some hear BUT reject...even demons KNOW but reject and do NOT obey...Satan was first to say His was “NOT FOR ME”
 
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clefty

New member
EXACTLY!

Even those who are spiritually dead have within them a self-assessment which often produces remorse or other negative feelings such as guilt and shame. In the following passage Paul speaks of a person's "conscience" which bears witness to the law written in the heart of all people, even those who are spiritually dead:

"for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them" (Ro.2:14-15).​



John Calvin said the following about these words of Paul:

"They have then a law, though they are without law: for though they have not a written law, they are yet by no means wholly destitute of the knowledge of what is right and just; as they could not otherwise distinguish between vice and virtue; the first of which they restrain by punishment, and the latter they commend, and manifest their approbation of it by honoring it with rewards. He sets nature in opposition to a written law, meaning that the Gentiles had the natural light of righteousness, which supplied the place of that law by which the Jews were instructed, so that they were a law to themselves."​



In the following verse Paul speaks about preaching the gospel in such a way that "everyone's conscience" bears witness that it is true:

"But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God" (2 Cor.4:2).​



Albert Barnes wrote, "the consciences of people are on the side of truth, and the gospel may be so preached as to enlist their consciences in its favor. Conscience prompts to do right, and condemns us if we do wrong. It can never be made to approve of wrong, never to give a man peace if he does that which he knows to be evil... They approve of it as a just, pure, holy, and reasonable system; as in accordance with what they feel to be right; as recommending that which ought to be done, and forbidding that which ought not to be done."

In his commentary on this verse John Calvin wrote that "He [Paul] claims to himself this praise--that he had proclaimed the pure doctrine of the gospel in simplicity and without disguise, and has the consciences of all as witnesses of this in the sight of God."

In The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges we read that "The individual conscience is, and always must be, the ultimate tribunal to which all teaching must appeal, and St Paul assumes that in it there resides a faculty of appreciating and acknowledging truth."

Aren’t some of the mindset we CAN NOT choose as it all is predetermined as elected to life or created for torment?

Why even have conscience...or a need for the Spirit to call to regenerate?

As if when one does NOT hear it was because they were not meant to...

Poor Calvin...
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Poor Calvin...

All of the errors of Calvinism cannot be blamed on John Calvin. First, let us look at how a believer is given life:

"...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together (syzoopoieo) with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" (Eph.2:5).​

Here the Greek word syzoopoieo is translated "made us alive together."

The Greek word syzoopoieo is made up of two words, zoopoieo and syn.

The word zoopoieo means to "make alive, give life."

The word syn means "a primary preposition denoting union; with or together."

So when a person is regenerated he is made alive together with Christ or placed in union with Him. The following verse describes that union we have with the Lord Jesus and it also describes the life we enjoy when we are made alive together with Him:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

Of course no one receives eternal life in the Son until he believes so it is clear that the Calvinists are wrong when they teach that regeneration prcedes faith:
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

John Calvin says the following about 1 John 5:11:

"But the Apostle, that he might keep us together in Christ, again repeats that life is found in him; as though he had said, that no other way of obtaining life has been appointed for us by God the Father. And the Apostle, indeed, briefly includes here three things: that we are all given up to death until God in his gratuitous favor restores us to life; for he plainly declares that life is a gift from God: and hence also it follows that we are destitute of it, and that it cannot be acquired by merits; secondly, he teaches us that this life is conferred on us by the gospel, because there the goodness and the paternal love of God is made known to us; lastly, he says that we cannot otherwise become partakers of this life than by believing in Christ."

Calvin says that "life" is found in Him and "that no other way of obtaining life has been appointed for us by God the Father." He also says that "we cannot otherwise become partakers of this life than by believing in Christ."
 

beloved57

Well-known member
All of the errors of Calvinism cannot be blamed on John Calvin. First, let us look at how a believer is given life:

"...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together (syzoopoieo) with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" (Eph.2:5).​

Here the Greek word syzoopoieo is translated "made us alive together."

The Greek word syzoopoieo is made up of two words, zoopoieo and syn.

The word zoopoieo means to "make alive, give life."

The word syn means "a primary preposition denoting union; with or together."

So when a person is regenerated he is made alive together with Christ or placed in union with Him. The following verse describes that union we have with the Lord Jesus and it also describes the life we enjoy when we are made alive together with Him:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

Of course no one receives eternal life in the Son until he believes so it is clear that the Calvinists are wrong when they teach that regeneration prcedes faith:
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

John Calvin says the following about 1 John 5:11:

"But the Apostle, that he might keep us together in Christ, again repeats that life is found in him; as though he had said, that no other way of obtaining life has been appointed for us by God the Father. And the Apostle, indeed, briefly includes here three things: that we are all given up to death until God in his gratuitous favor restores us to life; for he plainly declares that life is a gift from God: and hence also it follows that we are destitute of it, and that it cannot be acquired by merits; secondly, he teaches us that this life is conferred on us by the gospel, because there the goodness and the paternal love of God is made known to us; lastly, he says that we cannot otherwise become partakers of this life than by believing in Christ."

Calvin says that "life" is found in Him and "that no other way of obtaining life has been appointed for us by God the Father." He also says that "we cannot otherwise become partakers of this life than by believing in Christ."

Believing in Christ is the evidence that one already has eternal life. If u don't have life in you you can't believe in Christ. Not the True Christ anyway 😉
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The facts are clear that spiritual life comes as a result of the word of truth and spiritual life does not precede belief in the word of truth, as witnessed by the following words of the Lord Jesus:

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).

It is not just "hearing" the word of truth which results in a person being born of the Spirit but instead a person must "believe" those words in order to receive new life, as witnessed by the following words of the Apostle John:

"And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that (hina) you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that (hina) believing you may have life in His name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

In verse 31 the Greek word hina is translated twice as "that" and the Greek word means: "denoting purpose and end: 'to the intent that,' 'to the end that,' 'in order that'..."

So the Apostle John is saying that the "purpose" of what he wrote was so that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and the "purpose" of believing is that ye might have life through His name. In others words, it is "believing" that results in life and therefore the Calvinists are in error when they assert that "life" precedes "faith."
 

beloved57

Well-known member
The facts are clear that spiritual life comes as a result of the word of truth and spiritual life does not precede belief in the word of truth, as witnessed by the following words of the Lord Jesus:

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).

It is not just "hearing" the word of truth which results in a person being born of the Spirit but instead a person must "believe" those words in order to receive new life, as witnessed by the following words of the Apostle John:

"And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that (hina) you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that (hina) believing you may have life in His name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

In verse 31 the Greek word hina is translated twice as "that" and the Greek word means: "denoting purpose and end: 'to the intent that,' 'to the end that,' 'in order that'..."

So the Apostle John is saying that the "purpose" of what he wrote was so that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and the "purpose" of believing is that ye might have life through His name. In others words, it is "believing" that results in life and therefore the Calvinists are in error when they assert that "life" precedes "faith."

Christ speaks spiritual words to them that have spiritual life! Those who the Spirit has quickened.
 

7djengo7

This space intentionally left blank
Christ speaks spiritual words to them that have spiritual life!

And Christ does not speak spiritual words to them that do not have spiritual life? Is that where you're trying to go? If so, then, according to you, it is impossible for those that do not have spiritual life to reject spiritual words spoken by Christ--since, in that case, He has not spoken spiritual words to them in the first place. So then, if those who do not have spiritual life cannot be guilty of rejecting spiritual words spoken by Christ, then who can? It's impossible for a man to be guilty of rejecting something that has not been offered to him, because it is, in the first place, impossible for him to reject something that has not been offered to him.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
And Christ does not speak spiritual words to them that do not have spiritual life? Is that where you're trying to go? If so, then, according to you, it is impossible for those that do not have spiritual life to reject spiritual words spoken by Christ--since, in that case, He has not spoken spiritual words to them in the first place.


Yes, the Calvinist teach that only some people have been given a so-called gift of faith and others are not given that gift. And that is the reason why the unbelievers do not believe. However, the Scriptures give another reason why some do not believe:

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved" (Jn.3:18-20).​
 

beloved57

Well-known member
7d

And Christ does not speak spiritual words to them that do not have spiritual life?

I don't believe so because they can't be.received. When He made the statement I believe He was referring to His disciples who had Spiritual life. If He does speak spiritual words to them that have no life then it's for their condemnation.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
js

Yes, the Calvinist teach that only some people have been given a so-called gift of faith and others are not given that gift. And that is the reason why the unbelievers do not believe. However, the Scriptures give another reason why some do not believe:

Yes true all don't have faith given them 2 Thess 3:2

2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Also another reason why men don't never believe is because they are not Christ Sheep Jn 10:26


26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
And Christ does not speak spiritual words to them that do not have spiritual life? Is that where you're trying to go? If so, then, according to you, it is impossible for those that do not have spiritual life to reject spiritual words spoken by Christ--since, in that case, He has not spoken spiritual words to them in the first place. So then, if those who do not have spiritual life cannot be guilty of rejecting spiritual words spoken by Christ, then who can? It's impossible for a man to be guilty of rejecting something that has not been offered to him, because it is, in the first place, impossible for him to reject something that has not been offered to him.

Men reject the Gospel simply because they don't believe it. It's not offered to them, it's preached to them. Also men may hear spiritual truth with a natural ear but lack a spiritual ears for spiritual hearing.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Also another reason why men don't never believe is because they are not Christ Sheep Jn 10:26[/B]

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.


Yes, His sheep hear his voice and believe. You wrongly assume that the reason His sheep believed in the beginning was because they were already quickened by the Spirit and thus His sheep. However, theLord Jesus said the following:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Since a person receives spiritual life by believing His words then that same person had to be dead spiritually prior to believing His words. No one can deny that fact.

But the Calvinists throw their reason to the wind and argue that a person is alive spiritually before believing His words. They are confused because they don't understand that in order for anyone to be made alive spiritually that same person must first be dead spiritually.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Yes, His sheep hear his voice and believe. You wrongly assume that the reason His sheep believed in the beginning was because they were already quickened by the Spirit and thus His sheep. However, theLord Jesus said the following:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Since a person receives spiritual life by believing His words then that same person had to be dead spiritually prior to believing His words. No one can deny that fact.

But the Calvinists throw their reason to the wind and argue that a person is alive spiritually before believing His words. They are confused because they don't understand that in order for anyone to be made alive spiritually that same person must first be dead spiritually.

Okay if one never believe it is because they were not of His Sheep for whom He died. Jn 10:11,15 .

Additionally all His Sheep will be given Spiritual life and the gift of faith which is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith

​​​​​​No Spirit no faith!
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
​​​​​​No Spirit no faith![/B]

According to your ideas a person is made alive by the Spirit before he believers. However, the Scriptures reveal that a parson passes from spiritual death to spiritual lif when he believes:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).​

According to your ideas a person is alive spiritually before he believes so according to you a person cannot pass from spiritual death to spiritual life when he believes because he is already alive spiritually.

You cannot understand these simple things because you remain a natural man:

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor.2:4).​
 

beloved57

Well-known member
According to your ideas a person is made alive by the Spirit before he believers. However, the Scriptures reveal that a parson passes from spiritual death to spiritual lif when he believes:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).​

According to your ideas a person is alive spiritually before he believes so according to you a person cannot pass from spiritual death to spiritual life when he believes because he is already alive spiritually.

You cannot understand these simple things because you remain a natural man:

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor.2:4).​

Yes Faith to believe is a spiritual fruit.
 
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