Why a Sacrifice if Calvinism is True?

Clete

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At least you can engage actual scriptures. You know this guy will be on your whipping post next for as much as he disagrees over scripture with you. You did the 'temporary' nice with me at one time, too. He is not Open Theist nor MAD. After that? At least you understand the difference between ▲concordance cut/paste▲ and presenting scriptures that pertain to the subject matter and aren't just the result of a concordance search. That isn't Bible study.

It isn't about being nice, Lon.

I don't know you and I am not here to make friends. I am here to debate doctrine and defend the truth as well as the righteous character of God. So long as you engage the debate with a modicum of honestly then I'm as patient as Moses and will respond to your arguments with as much honest effort as I know how to muster.

As it is, however, all you do is belly ache about how mean I am and crow about how theologically astute and erudite you are while ignoring every argument presented against your doctrine just as you've done here. You acknowledge that the arguments are on point and valid and yet you choose, instead of responding to the argument, to take yet another opportunity to insult me and whine about how I've treated you at some point in the distant past that I can't remember ever doing in the first place. That's not to say that I deny saying something that you found offensive but merely that I don't recall what it was or why I said it. I don't remember because I don't care, Lon. There is really only one person on this whole website that I truly despise and you aren't it. Again, I do not know you. What I say is said in response to whatever it is you say. I don't go looking for reasons to insult people. When someone says something idiotic then I call it out. If they persists then its them that I call an idiot because they deserve nothing else. If, on the other hand, they respond with a question or additional arguments then I respond to those arguments just as I would any other. I am very consistent and nearly every word I've ever written on this website is still here for anyone to read as proof of that consistency. In short, I do not suffer fools lightly and I do not throw pearls before swine and the vast majority of people who think its fun to debate doctrine on the internet happen to be foolish pigs and so there's not many of them that are going to find me pleasant. So be it.

Now, if you'd care to respond to my arguments, I have no doubt that we are quite capable of having a productive two way conversation about something more substantive and interesting than either your hurt feelings or your personal opinions about how I conduct myself on a web forum against people who mostly have no idea what they're talking about.

As for my "engaging actual scriptures", has it ever occurred to you that people who have been debating these issues for any length of time might understand that its a fool's errand to engage the debate on the premise of your own proof texts? In other words, some quoted passage of scripture is not the common ground you pretend it to be because Calvinists quite literally cannot seem to read. Actually, it isn't that they cannot read, its that the words have a different meaning in their minds than in anyone else's mind who reads the same passage. You're no exception! To think that either Matthew 16:24 or Philippians 2:3-4 has anything to do with "avoiding free will" is nothing short of delusional. The actual words in those passages simply do not say anything about that whatsoever. Your Calvinist filter twists the meaning of the words into something totally dissimilar to what they are in reality. And this is by no means an isolated example. The Calvinist has altered the meaning of practically every major theological idea. The Calvinist's concept of love, hatred, justice, righteousness, sovereignty, will, sin, etc, etc, etc all mean something quite different in the mind of a Calvinist than they do to every other human being who knows the English language. You want to "Forget Calvin: Simply deal with scriptures." but cannot see that you bring Calvin to your every reading of scripture!

So, the result is that, at best, someone on my side of the debate can explain how they don't have anything to do with the point the Calvinist is making (or the equivalent) or we can post our own proof texts. Either way, we are accused of ignoring or mishandling the scripture. The fact that you are doing the equivalent never registers because instead of debating the premises of your doctrine you presuppose the veracity of those premises and argue based on that presumption. In short, you beg the question and then declare victory when anyone either doesn't accept your premises or points out the fallacious reasoning because they "refuse to engage the scripture".

Of course, what alternative do you have? You cannot debate the premises of your doctrine because even you realize that you loose every actual debate you engage in! You cannot accept the dictionary definitions of words like "sovereignty" because your all of your proof texts vanish into thin air when you do that. You cannot discuss the history of your doctrine because you find yourself sitting in the lap of a homosexual Greek philosopher inside of two posts. You cannot even discuss the character of the men who founded your religion without figuring out how to explain away the fact that Calvin wrote "Institutes" at the age of ripe old age of 26 after a whopping three years of private study. In short, everywhere you step is wobbly and uncertain unless you presuppose the veracity of your doctrine and make every argument contingent upon that supposition.
 

Clete

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My theory is that any scripture we would post or refer to is viewed on their screen like something from a pyramid wall, though have also postulated there's an adult reading issue. We must neither completely discount that there's some exponential number of times you need to post the same scripture, before they simply move on to exchanging amens and pious speak amongst themselves, that proves one is a good robot, of course. Maybe it's like the big lie, amen it enough, and it becomes true? A method to their madness, not simply madness? Looks can be deceiving...

Notice that he complains that we don't engage scripture but then accuses you of cherry picking when you cite a whole list of scriptures!

What's more is that he DOES NOT notice that he is doing PRECISELY what he is accusing you of doing! :bang:
 
Notice that he complains that we don't engage scripture but then accuses you of cherry picking when you cite a whole list of scriptures!

What's more is that he DOES NOT notice that he is doing PRECISELY what he is accusing you of doing! :bang:

Yes, and the "cherry picking" argument is one all cults use, when they have no defense to scripture that puts the lie to their claims, and, as you pointed out of Ezekiel 18, throw that in, and it's still the tip of the iceberg of longsuffering God calling on man, commanding man, himself, to choose righteousness. And absolutely, they always only have in their arsenal a few verses, even one letter (!), or a passage they completely botch the meaning of, the rest of their posts blabbering on with the lying doctrines of men they try to inject into scripture, as if they can present a few cherry pits, where scripture is concerned, but your pages of scripture truth cherry picking? You may as well throw the whole Holy Bible at Calvinists, and it would still be cherry picking. LOL! I think lies and hypocrisy are bedfellows.

(Some of them claim they’re Bible scholars, especially message board cult trolls, when they don’t really know the Bible from a telephone book, are oblivious to perhaps the simplest rule of exegesis that scripture does not contradict scripture. They don’t see that even one verse that puts the lie to their claims makes them toast, in error, merely liars, misleading others. But present them a whole page or more of such verses? May as well have printed them and given them to a baboon. I find spiritual blindness so very strange! And tell me who is failing? Is it the Holy Spirit? God forbid! A crucial verse these people of lies should heavily ponder, but won’t: John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.)

It's really all quite ridiculous, even trying to reason with them futile. You can see here they can go on for hundreds of pages, repeating themselves, one of the reasons I don't like all the repetitive bickering, as it's pointless, to people that have some man like Calvin on the throne of their hearts, or Charles Russell, Ellen White, Popes, et al: they're all the same, lovers of the lie, more than God, that deign they can add to or subtract from the very word of God, shadows of 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12, "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." What can be more unrighteous, than pleasure in a god they claim is the author of, the very creator of, the very designer of all sin and evil? Calvinism is the most heinous slander of the Lord that I can think of, outside outright Satanism. Come to think of it, even most Satanists will acknowledge the holiness of God as a killjoy, that would simply get in the way of their will, their "do as thou wilt" belief system, in opposition to God. That is, even the devils acknowledge their will to sin. Calvinism is truly crazy, as you once pointed out, as if people denying the thousands of choices they make, all the time, daily, including their choosing faith in Calvin's slop! As they say, "You couldn't make this stuff up."

Don't expect anything good of them, anything to come of any discussion. Anybody willing to accept such horrible lies is really, really far gone. I've never once seen any cult person change their mind, regardless the word of God, only heard of this happening, rarely, and the clearest word of God putting the lie to this Calvinism silliness. Anyway, not once any repentance, of any cultist I presented scripture truth to. They simply love their lies. But this cherry picking business, when you give them a whole chunk of Bible truth, of many passages, is always a real hoot. Still, yawn, you know what I mean? "Gee. I've never heard that one before!"
 

Lon

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Yes, and the "cherry picking" argument is one all cults use
LOL. Where? You just like arguing without substance.


when they have no defense to scripture that puts the lie to their claims, and, as you pointed out of Ezekiel 18, throw that in, and it's still the tip of the iceberg of longsuffering God calling on man, commanding man, himself, to choose righteousness. And absolutely, they always only have in their arsenal a few verses, even one letter (!), or a passage they completely botch the meaning of, the rest of their posts blabbering on with the lying doctrines of men they try to inject into scripture, as if they can present a few cherry pits, where scripture is concerned, but your pages of scripture truth cherry picking? You may as well throw the whole Holy Bible at Calvinists, and it would still be cherry picking. LOL! I think lies and hypocrisy are bedfellows.
Yet you nor Clete (I assume, he's on my iggy and he knows it). I'll ignore you too now. There is no sense bantering and posturing without scriptures or scriptural ability. I'm done and you will disappear after this. I'll read your next post, not respond and I'll not see you again. You have no ability nor desire for the scriptures. Clete? I'm sadly surprised you don't understand those scriptures were indeed cherry-picked. A list of totally different scriptures out of the couch/context given to Jews is cogent? You certainly aren't MAD, just an Open Theist.

(Some of them claim they’re Bible scholars, especially message board cult trolls, when they don’t really know the Bible from a telephone book, are oblivious to perhaps the simplest rule of exegesis that scripture does not contradict scripture. They don’t see that even one verse that puts the lie to their claims makes them toast, in error, merely liars, misleading others. But present them a whole page or more of such verses? May as well have printed them and given them to a baboon. I find spiritual blindness so very strange! And tell me who is failing? Is it the Holy Spirit? God forbid! A crucial verse these people of lies should heavily ponder, but won’t: John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.)
Blowing hard at nothing. It addresses nothing in thread. Is not a part of any body else's conversation. :wave:

It's really all quite ridiculous, even trying to reason with them futile. You can see here they can go on for hundreds of pages, repeating themselves, one of the reasons I don't like all the repetitive bickering, as it's pointless, to people that have some man like Calvin on the throne of their hearts, or Charles Russell, Ellen White, Popes, et al: they're all the same, lovers of the lie, more than God, that deign they can add to or subtract from the very word of God, shadows of 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12, "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." What can be more unrighteous, than pleasure in a god they claim is the author of, the very creator of, the very designer of all sin and evil? Calvinism is the most heinous slander of the Lord that I can think of, outside outright Satanism. Come to think of it, even most Satanists will acknowledge the holiness of God as a killjoy, that would simply get in the way of their will, their "do as thou wilt" belief system, in opposition to God. That is, even the devils acknowledge their will to sin. Calvinism is truly crazy, as you once pointed out, as if people denying the thousands of choices they make, all the time, daily, including their choosing faith in Calvin's slop! As they say, "You couldn't make this stuff up."

Don't expect anything good of them, anything to come of any discussion. Anybody willing to accept such horrible lies is really, really far gone. I've never once seen any cult person change their mind, regardless the word of God, only heard of this happening, rarely, and the clearest word of God putting the lie to this Calvinism silliness. Anyway, not once any repentance, of any cultist I presented scripture truth to. They simply love their lies. But this cherry picking business, when you give them a whole chunk of Bible truth, of many passages, is always a real hoot. Still, yawn, you know what I mean? "Gee. I've never heard that one before!"

God will forgive. It is just an inability, washed in His presence 1 John 3:3 All the posturing in the world cannot help an inability. Study can, but you'd have to be doing your devotions and bible study daily as well. If you both are reading your bible daily, and studying these things out, great. If not, then no amount of 'this isn't biblical' is worth a dime. You have the last word. Make it good because I'm done and you need to grow up. You cannot 'assert' your way through theology discussion. Because it is literally all you've got, I have plenty enough from your loose bag of tricks and rhetoric. In Him -Lon
 

WYRose

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I'm not a Calvinist, but it does say in Romans 8:29 that those God foreknew He also predestined, justified and glorified. I think there could be a place for free will, but it seems to me that a lot of what's at the heart of Calvinism is proved true by scripture.

Romans 8:29 actually means GOD intended Earth to be populated with pure, sinless and obedient humans made in the image of his son, Jesus.
It is not confirming predestination per se.
If predestination was a fact no sinner like Saul could be metaphorically washed in Jesus's blood and made pure and guaranteed a leading place in ruling Earth when Jesus returns to cleanse it.
Before I became a Christian I was always amused at how US preachers were always going on about being washed in the blood while UK preachers practically never mentioned it.
UK churches are emptying rapidly in the great falling away for lack of some true Gospel and too much ecumenism.
 

Lon

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Romans 8:29 actually means GOD intended Earth to be populated with pure, sinless and obedient humans made in the image of his son, Jesus.
Love to see someone actually engaging the scriptures. The word here is "progneo" Knows before, and the object are those who are predestined 'before.' While I appreciate an attempt to explain, we must be careful not to 'explain away' what is in scripture. For me, I don't care where scripture points, as long as I, particularly am made to go in that direction. Often, a person has an aversion to something presented in scripture, and they will often steer away from the uncomfortable rather than simply reading what it says and wrestling. Jacob wrestled with God and was changed and we must fall upon the Rock and be changed as well.

It is not confirming predestination per se.
Are you certain? See here: https://biblehub.com/text/romans/8-29.htm

If predestination was a fact no sinner like Saul could be metaphorically washed in Jesus's blood and made pure...
Why not? What causes the assertion?

Before I became a Christian I was always amused at how US preachers were always going on about being washed in the blood while UK preachers practically never mentioned it.
UK churches are emptying rapidly in the great falling away for lack of some true Gospel and too much ecumenism.
A return to biblical truth and holiness is immanent but I believe you are correct, any church that is lost in other concerns than the Lord Jesus Christ and Him crucified has lost relevance/meaning. In Him -Lon
 

WYRose

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[QUOTE ttruscott.
The flim flam of exegesis is that for anyone to get the meaning of a verse from the verse without any input from their mindset and unfiltered by existing ideas is on the order of Paul's conversion as a bright light and hearing GOD's voice. Every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the verse into previously accepted definitions.

I Champion Our Free will:
- All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will. QUOTE]

Your post is as perfect an example of flim flam eisgesis as can be found!
Nowhere does the Bible say there is a heaven or hell - except possibly for Satan - but myriads of eisegesists have falsely interpreted many verses to mean heaven and hell are the destiny of humans.
 

JudgeRightly

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[QUOTE ttruscott.
The flim flam of exegesis is that for anyone to get the meaning of a verse from the verse without any input from their mindset and unfiltered by existing ideas is on the order of Paul's conversion as a bright light and hearing GOD's voice. Every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the verse into previously accepted definitions.

I Champion Our Free will:
- All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will. QUOTE]

Your post is as perfect an example of flim flam eisgesis as can be found!
Nowhere does the Bible say there is a heaven or hell - except possibly for Satan - but myriads of eisegesists have falsely interpreted many verses to mean heaven and hell are the destiny of humans.

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:13-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation20:13-15&version=NKJV

What interpretation is needed here to get the idea that humans who rejected God will be cast into the lake of fire?
 
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Lon

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usually means merely "the way I interpret the scripture from my understanding." People seldom take the time to analyze by what authority their stated plain meaning has such weight over other interpretations and just assume of course what I've decided is right must be right.
Worth a repeat

The flim flam of exegesis is that for anyone to get the meaning of a verse from the verse without any input from their mindset and unfiltered by existing ideas is on the order of Paul's conversion as a bright light and hearing GOD's voice. Every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the verse into previously accepted definitions.
Hence a need to ever study and ever reread the scriptures instead of resting on laurels. In Him -Lon
 

Lon

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Clete said:
Notice that he complains that we don't engage scripture but then accuses you of cherry picking when you cite a whole list of scriptures!

What's more is that he DOES NOT notice that he is doing PRECISELY what he is accusing you of doing! :bang:
No, your 'logic' is slipping on both counts. 1) He posted nothing but a smattering of "I'm on the right side" scriptures regarding false prophets (which don't exist today) scriptures. You are getting sloppy or faked it well all these years. He doesn't know scriptures. Sorry. Next did I 'precisely' do the same? :nono: I posted scriptures that have nothing to do with Calvinism, but are indeed a call to 'how' to honor God in debate. They are clear, what is more AND apply to all of us. Sorry again. You weren't paying attention. It is also why people ignore you Clete. You cannot argue because ▲you stop your ears▲ and stop being logical and reasonable and ▲assert▲ rather than argue the scriptures. Today you rest on your laurels with very little scripture study or devotion and pay attention: It shows Clete! It breaks my heart to say it. You are most interested in Clete and what Clete thinks. Your daily devotions with Savior are lacking and it shows. Return to your first-love. This ain't it AND you know it.
 

Clete

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No, your 'logic' is slipping on both counts. 1) He posted nothing but a smattering of "I'm on the right side" scriptures regarding false prophets (which don't exist today) scriptures. You are getting sloppy or faked it well all these years. He doesn't know scriptures. Sorry. Next did I 'precisely' do the same? :nono: I posted scriptures that have nothing to do with Calvinism, but are indeed a call to 'how' to honor God in debate. They are clear, what is more AND apply to all of us. Sorry again. You weren't paying attention. It is also why people ignore you Clete. You cannot argue because ▲you stop your ears▲ and stop being logical and reasonable and ▲assert▲ rather than argue the scriptures. Today you rest on your laurels with very little scripture study or devotion and pay attention: It shows Clete! It breaks my heart to say it. You are most interested in Clete and what Clete thinks. Your daily devotions with Savior are lacking and it shows. Return to your first-love. This ain't it AND you know it.

Lon, you've gotta stop. There is an entire thread here that anyone can read for themselves, okay?

So long as your only response to someone else's proof-texts with nothing at all more substantive than to accuse them of cherry picking, then you are doing PRECISELY the same thing that you showed up here looking down your nose at everyone else for doing.

Just because you say that they're "nothing but a smattering of "I'm on the right side" scriptures" doesn't mean that's what they are and you making such an accusation doesn't count as you dealing with the scriptures. The fact is that we could bury you in an avalanche of scriptures that you'd have no idea how to deal with apart from rendering them entirely meaningless or else twisting them to mean of the opposite of what they say (most often the latter).

And NO ONE cares what your opinion of me is, least of all me!. I will engage you with at least as much substance as you bring to the debate. I always have and I've got more than a decade's worth of posts on this site alone to prove it. You can belly-ache and whine all you like. It will not effect me in the slightest.
 

blackbirdking

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Here I'm not sure where I stand between Calvin and other theologians. I believe man (Adam) had no freewill, but a will designed to follow God.
Does this mean that you disagree with Calvinism? And that Calvinism is not found in the Bible?
:)
That was my original assertion.

What is the difference between will and freewill?

You are arguing (I think) that God created man with a will: a choice, either to follow God's direction or not.
Man having a will does not mean that he could choose to not follow God. Choices require more than a will; they require knowledge. Adam needed knowledge in order to make choices. He was created with the ability to make choices, to reason, but lacked knowledge. Therefore, at creation, man could not sin; Adam didn't have knowledge of sin. He had good reasoning, but didn't have knowledge.


In that, however, it'd be necessary that
God would have created a proclivity
that leads to evil, purposefully and I'm not that kind of Calvinist nor Arminian, nor Open Theist.
How so?
Is there a reason that you think Adam couldn't reason before the serpent showed? Adam could not choose to not follow God's direction. Then, the serpent gave him knowledge. Previous to that, Adam only knew, "Thou shalt not eat."; he did not know it was 'good' for food, 'good' for the eyes, and 'good' for wisdom. The serpent introduced him to an alternative of good by perverting good. Up to that time, Adam could only do what he knew: God's message. His choices were limited by lack of knowledge. Eating from the tree of knowledge wasn't even an option until Adam had the message that it was good to eat from the tree; more good than to heed God's message.

No man can make a choice for something he doesn't have knowledge of.

Many ask me after "Where did the serpent's Fall/tempting come from?" I've no idea simply because scripture itself never seems to discuss it. It becomes an issue where I can attempt logic and reasoning, or I can wait on what I know, then what I believe based on the information I've been given and have. The answer may yet be in scripture but I haven't had that 'ah ha' moment yet.
I'm not sure, when we are left without the filled in information, that what we draw or conclude isn't based upon bible study. It'd simply mean we put that part together wrong. Even the Pharisees, Jesus said, were wrong, but He said that Salvation (and knowledge) was of the Jews to the Samaritan woman. It means to me: "Good teaching, wrong actions."


Appreciate it too. You are clearly asking meaningful questions rather than making declarations and to me, this can only be the meaningful part of the thread, where rubber meets the road and we discuss what is biblical and what is not BY using the Bible. The rest of my discussions have been an appeal to do no more or less and so I greatly appreciate it. There is nothing else worth my, or (I think) your time. In Him and ty -Lon
Again, thanks.
 

WYRose

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Eve was alone when Satan the serpent led her into sin. She was perhaps only a couple of days old and had never seen anything die so perhaps had no idea of what death was.
 

ttruscott

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Eve was alone when Satan the serpent led her into sin. She was perhaps only a couple of days old and had never seen anything die so perhaps had no idea of what death was.

To accept this I must also accept that GOD let the serpent get to her in her infancy, in her innocence, and alone (though HE was in the garden with her) without any instruction about the danger the serpent was bringing to her... This is very hard to accept because:
- on the surface it violates the love HE had for her
- it also violates HIS innate sense of righteousness and justice
- It does not account for her being already in place as a gardener for YHWH
- it does not account for her being of an intellectual development that she could have a life and death theological discussion about the command "not to eat."
- it seems to violate / contradict the scripture that 1 Timothy 1:8-10 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient... and Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of sin.

I think a revision of these ideas are indicated...
 

WYRose

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The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:13-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation20:13-15&version=NKJV

What interpretation is needed here to get the idea that humans who rejected God will be cast into the lake of fire?

Pracatically all Christians interpret Rev 20:13 to mean all people go on trip to heaven.
 

WYRose

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I think a revision of these ideas are indicated...

I think you need to learn to read the Bible.
GOD was not with Eve in the garden.
She was walking around by herself. She had not been told to be a gardener but to be a mother.
Lucifer/Satan had decided to ruin the special relationship Eve and Adam had with GOD perhaps out of jealousy.
GOD was unaware of Lucifer's treachery because He had never imagined that the most beautiful angel would be so stupid as to lose his special privileged position.
Jeremiah 19:5 tells me if not you that there are things that GOD never imagined. [h=1]Jeremiah 19:5 King James Version (KJV)[/h] 5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind.

Try reading Daniel to learn how jealousy makes people evil - and how they die a nasty death.
Daniel 6:13 Then answered they and said before the king, That Daniel, which is of the children of the captivity of Judah, regardeth not thee, O king, nor the decree that thou hast signed, but maketh his petition three times a day.
24 And the king commanded, and they brought those men which had accused Daniel, and they cast them into the den of lions, them, their children, and their wives; and the lions had the mastery of them, and brake all their bones in pieces or ever they came at the bottom of the den.'


Maybe you were brainwashed by all the talk of GOD being omniscient?
 

Lon

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Does this mean that you disagree with Calvinism? And that Calvinism is not found in the Bible?
:)
That was my original assertion.
I find it difficult to say 'not found' because ideas are certainly found in the Bible, including ones I disagree with Calvin on. Rather, the struggle and a good point/reminder for thread, it is what is more consistent and open to further contextual examination that is the better Biblical stance, but we all disagree. The Catholic Church, in its early years, did work on what was thought Biblically solid (orthodox) and what was not allowable. For the most part, most of Christendom hold to those standards though certainly with significant points of variation, hence we are thought, most of us Protestants/Evangelicals, as brothers-in-error. They further distinguished some as heretics and no longer brothers. The rest of us could and should take note of which issues are salvific (beyond the bounds of fellowship and God's saving grace) and which are rather seen as error. Our discussions on TOL, reflected upon such tenor, would take more of a corrective note than spit, spite, and malice, more often than not. We certainly need to be very bothered when doctrine does damage to a fellow believer or God and His character.

On this particular, I just don't know how many believe from all camps, that a freewill was the result of the Fall, as I do. Certainly some Calvinists, and certainly some others as well, even some few 'freewill' theists. I believe in a will that chooses, but believe without a duality, not present before the Fall, it is not possible sans an external factor, to 'choose otherwise.' In my mind, it is just as Calvinistic to suggest it from freewill proponents because God would knowingly create a man with switch (choice) purposefully to go against Him. Because of that, I'm ever glad that freewill theists and Calvinists participate in these threads, because we don't think long enough and hard enough to witness our own stigmas. Calvinism has it. Freewill theism has it.

What is the difference between will and freewill?
Everybody, even Calvin, meant something different from one another. For me, 'free' has to be 'from' something. A will prior to the Fall? "Free from sin." A will postFall? Free from God's will. Because of that, I simply say "an accountable will." After salvation? "Whom the Son sets free, is free indeed" as Paul says, "only do not use your freedom to entertain the desires of the flesh, but God" So even in that, freedom is relative (I believe it always has to be) to what it is free 'from' and what it is free to do. John 8:36 Galatians 5:13 (and 1 Peter 2:16)
Man having a will does not mean that he could choose to not follow God. Choices require more than a will; they require knowledge. Adam needed knowledge in order to make choices. He was created with the ability to make choices, to reason, but lacked knowledge. Therefore, at creation, man could not sin; Adam didn't have knowledge of sin. He had good reasoning, but didn't have knowledge.
He and Eve seemed naive with the conversation with the serpent, though Paul agrees with you that Eve was deceived and not Adam. 1 Timothy 2:14


How so?
Is there a reason that you think Adam couldn't reason before the serpent showed? Adam could not choose to not follow God's direction. Then, the serpent gave him knowledge. Previous to that, Adam only knew, "Thou shalt not eat."; he did not know it was 'good' for food, 'good' for the eyes, and 'good' for wisdom. The serpent introduced him to an alternative of good by perverting good. Up to that time, Adam could only do what he knew: God's message. His choices were limited by lack of knowledge. Eating from the tree of knowledge wasn't even an option until Adam had the message that it was good to eat from the tree; more good than to heed God's message.
I see it this way too: Without a serpent, there is no choice. It was external, not an internal 'ability.' The sin is they had no choice given without the serpent and it takes the serpent or there is no ability nor rationality to sin.

No man can make a choice for something he doesn't have knowledge of.
Sort of. Adam did have partial knowledge but had no idea what was going to take place. The doing of the thing was peer-pressured by the serpent. As with 1 Timothy 2:14, Adam seems to have done this, not to disobey God, so much as to not leave his wife whom he was responsible for, alone with the consequences. In so, "the first Adam" as Paul says in Romans, "brought death. It is in the sense that he chose something for which he could be of no help. Thus, it seems he was not misinformed, but certainly not informed of what he was choosing. His only knowledge was to keep away from it, at God's direction.


Again, thanks.
Meaningful conversation. Thank you as well.
 
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