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Lighthouse Lighthouse is offline
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April 17th, 2012, 04:13 PM

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Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
And you left off that the man wasnt brought there either.
No he didn't. It was the first point.





   
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Angel4Truth Angel4Truth is offline
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April 17th, 2012, 04:16 PM

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Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
No he didn't. It was the first point.
Youre right, i was reading that thinking he was talking about the 2 witnesses not being there with that statement.





"Whatever we once were, we are no longer a Christian nation" - BHO

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.


   
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This Charming Manc This Charming Manc is offline
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April 17th, 2012, 04:36 PM

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It does not make her innocent. It does, however, make the sentence null and void, just as would happen in a court of law today if a corruption of the law took place and was found out.
No scripture to back that assumption up at all.

Also what kinda of court lets of an offender just because the other guilty party isn't there to answer trial.

Also do you think misapplication of the law was an isolated event or do you think, or do you think practice of the law may of been institutionally corrupt at this point in jewish history?

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Really? Did you miss the verses I posted?
Yes I did they only made 1/2 of the point you made though. I agree it is a misapplication of the law. I see no evidence to assume that this makes the woman's sentence null and void

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See the highlighted text? No witnesses when asked for. They all left while He was writing, after He spoke the words regarding who should throw the first stone.
OK the translation I use says it in a very different manner

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Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
Anyway putting those differences aside look at the order of the story.

All the accusers had already left, not that there were none. It is intellectually dishonest to claim that there were no witnesses just because there were none at this point.

vrs 3 said she had been caught in the act, that means there were witnesses.

Quote:
First off Levites and priests are the same thing. And I never said Jesus was unqualified; I only said He was not in a recognized position to make said judgments in the eyes of the men who brought the woman to Him.
Three things
  • Priests and Levities are different things
  • He was qualified as priest, the book of Hebrews makes this clear.
  • I think its highly likely that as an established rabbi he was seen as being culturally authoritative in passing judgement on the law.
    The fact he was asked to make judgement supports that

Quote:
The issue is you can't assume either way.
I am not the guy basing my arguments out of what was written in the sand.

If we don't know we cant make any claims based up on it.

Quote:
Because you don't know Scripture.
You are a fool with no understanding.
I'm the guy basing arguments on what scripture says not what i've have added or heard added to scripture.

and be careful who you call a fool Matthew 5:22



   
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April 17th, 2012, 07:30 PM

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Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
OT civilization and the times and life of its peoples were necessarily desensitized to any number of things that horrify modern Western culture.
Which, even if true, makes no difference.

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Crimes of passion have nothing to do with premeditation or any rational point. No alteration of law or practice could impact them.
You have no evidence for this bolded part. Nor can you have.

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You haven't established that's what's being done or that God meant to apply to the Gentile what he applied to the pre-resurrection Jew.
God's standard is that murderers are executed swiftly and painfully so that people will learn His law. Your theory is for you to provide evidence for.

Quote:
No. If we manage to make mistakes with the protections in place reducing those and speeding up the process can't make for a lessening of error. It's not logical to assume or assert the contrary.
It's not logical to judge a change to the system without understanding that the reason for the change is a fundamental change in the people.

Quote:
Rather it's a highly qualified and singular yes. Now unless you believe those circumstances will repeat it becomes a no as pertains to the rule.
No, you're moving the goalposts again. Note the original question - can good come from the execution of an innocent man?





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Town Heretic Town Heretic is online now
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April 17th, 2012, 08:10 PM

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Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
Which, even if true, makes no difference.
You should have said that to begin with. I wouldn't have answered on the point.

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You have no evidence for this bolded part. Nor can you have.
Nope. I just set it out. Repeating this mantra doesn't change the fact that crimes of passion are by definition void of reason. The degree of penalty, the existence of penalty doesn't factor. And we know that because the rates don't change regardless of penalty and variation.

Quote:
God's standard is that murderers are executed swiftly and painfully so that people will learn His law. Your theory is for you to provide evidence for.
We used to hang people publicly in short order. Didn't slow us down. And you're asserting the application to OT Israel's law to the Gentile. Why?

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It's not logical to judge a change to the system without understanding that the reason for the change is a fundamental change in the people
Explain.

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No, you're moving the goalposts again. Note the original question - can good come from the execution of an innocent man?
I didn't move them to begin with. And my first answer was qualified for Christ. The rule is contrary to that exception.





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April 17th, 2012, 08:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
The degree of penalty, the existence of penalty doesn't factor. And we know that because the rates don't change regardless of penalty and variation.
You have no evidence that the knowledge of a swift and painful execution will not serve as a deterrent. Nor can you ever have.

Quote:
We used to hang people publicly in short order. Didn't slow us down.
Didn't it? Where are your numbers?

Quote:
And you're asserting the application to OT Israel's law to the Gentile. Why?
Why not?

Quote:
Explain.
In order to see an acceptance of God and His standards will require a monumental change in the attitude of the people. With this change will come an education. That education will include, for a judge, how to judge rightly.

Quote:
I didn't move them to begin with. And my first answer was qualified for Christ. The rule is contrary to that exception.
What rule? I asked a question. Can good come from the execution of an innocent man?





Where is the evidence for a global flood?
Why do my eyes hurt?
You've never used them.

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Town Heretic Town Heretic is online now
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April 17th, 2012, 08:48 PM

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Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
You have no evidence that the knowledge of a swift and painful execution will not serve as a deterrent. Nor can you ever have.
Yes I do and I've already set it out. But since your entire counter appears to be this particular repetition there's no point in my going on with it. I didn't enter the thread to convince anyone, only to set out my belief and the reason for it.

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Didn't it? Where are your numbers?
Run a Google. I'm not doing your footwork and given all you've offered is declaration in contrast I don't feel particularly bad about omitting citation and linkage.

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Why not?
Because we aren't Israel.

Quote:
In order to see an acceptance of God and His standards will require a monumental change in the attitude of the people. With this change will come an education. That education will include, for a judge, how to judge rightly.
That sounds mystically vague. I know how judges are trained. How do you mean?

Quote:
What rule? I asked a question. Can good come from the execution of an innocent man?
The rule is no. It's a violation of justice. I only know of one exception and I noted it.





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Stripe Stripe is offline
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April 17th, 2012, 10:07 PM

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Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
Yes I do and I've already set it out.
You have your opinion. You need evidence.

Quote:
Run a Google. I'm not doing your footwork and given all you've offered is declaration in contrast I don't feel particularly bad about omitting citation and linkage.
You make the claim - you back it up.

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Because we aren't Israel.
That's nice. Why does that mean God's standards for our treatment of criminals changed?

Quote:
That sounds mystically vague. I know how judges are trained. How do you mean?
When people follow God's ways, they become better people. Maybe that's a vague and mystical concept for you, but it is true.

Quote:
The rule is no. It's a violation of justice. I only know of one exception and I noted it.
I'm not asking for rules. I'm asked you - can it happen?





Where is the evidence for a global flood?
Why do my eyes hurt?
You've never used them.

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April 17th, 2012, 10:22 PM

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Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
You have your opinion. You need evidence.
I have logic, education in the system of law, statistics relating to homicides, that sort of thing. You don't want to apply them.

Quote:
You make the claim - you back it up.
You haven't and you don't have the background, familiarity, particular education and experience on point.

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That's nice. Why does that mean God's standards for our treatment of criminals changed?
Do you live by the same law that compelled the Jewish people before Christ? And if not has God's standards changed?

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When people follow God's ways, they become better people.
The Jewish people followed the law, God's ways. Were they good enough? How did Christ describe the priests who ruled the Temple?

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Maybe that's a vague and mystical concept for you, but it is true.
So you don't know then. Just a general sort of betterment.

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I'm not asking for rules. I'm asked you - can it happen?
I noted the singular exception. Now how does it apply to our consideration?





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April 17th, 2012, 11:07 PM

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Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
I have logic, education in the system of law, statistics relating to homicides, that sort of thing. You don't want to apply them.
You need to show evidence that knowledge of a swift and painful execution would not provide a deterrent. We know you have your opinion. But you can have no evidence until the conditions are actually applied and tested.

Quote:
You haven't and you don't have the background, familiarity, particular education and experience on point.
What?

You claimed people used to get hanged which didn't act as a deterrent. How do you know this is the case?

Quote:
Do you live by the same law that compelled the Jewish people before Christ? And if not has God's standards changed?
I reckon God's standard for the treatment of murderers could apply as well today as it did for ancient Israel. You reckon it could not. I can't "live by the same law that compelled the Jewish people". We have all new laws that do not submit to God's standard. Things have changed and we have a clear record of what did. One of the things that did not change was God's standard for the punishment of murderers.

Quote:
The Jewish people followed the law, God's ways.
Which bible have you been reading?
Quote:
How did Christ describe the priests who ruled the Temple?
Not obedient to and ignorant of the law.

Quote:
So you don't know then. Just a general sort of betterment.
Right. We can not know now how good life will be in a society that honours God. But we live in the hope and faith that it will be as He describes. Or you can keep promoting your own ideas as "good enough".

Quote:
I noted the singular exception. Now how does it apply to our consideration?
That's a "Yes", right?





Where is the evidence for a global flood?
Why do my eyes hurt?
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April 17th, 2012, 11:14 PM

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Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
You need to show evidence that knowledge of a swift and painful execution would not provide a deterrent.
Who cares if it is a deterrent, in my estimation it is the ultimate punishment, as it should be. If it deters also it is a bonus, it should be viewed as punishment first.

Who are you?





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April 17th, 2012, 11:19 PM

Deuteronomy 5:28-33
28 “Then the Lord heard the voice of your words when you spoke to me, and the Lord said to me: ‘I have heard the voice of the words of this people which they have spoken to you. They are right in all that they have spoken. 29 Oh, that they had such a heart in them that they would fear Me and always keep all My commandments, that it might be well with them and with their children forever! 30 Go and say to them, “Return to your tents.” 31 But as for you, stand here by Me, and I will speak to you all the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments which you shall teach them, that they may observe them in the land which I am giving them to possess.’

32 “Therefore you shall be careful to do as the Lord your God has commanded you; you shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left. 33 You shall walk in all the ways which the Lord your God has commanded you, that you may live and that it may be well with you, and that you may prolong your days in the land which you shall possess.





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April 17th, 2012, 11:21 PM

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Originally Posted by rocketman View Post
Who cares if it is a deterrent, in my estimation it is the ultimate punishment, as it should be. If it deters also it is a bonus, it should be viewed as punishment first.
I'd agree. But who are you?

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Who are you?
"Just a fly in the ointment. A monkey in the wrench."





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April 17th, 2012, 11:26 PM

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Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
I'd agree. But who are you?

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April 17th, 2012, 11:28 PM

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Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
You need to show evidence that knowledge of a swift and painful execution would not provide a deterrent.
I did if you understand that most homicides are crimes of passion and that crimes of passion are, by definition, irrational acts. Irrational acts are not impacted by rational laws. They aren't cost/benefit analysis.

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We know you have your opinion. But you can have no evidence until the conditions are actually applied and tested.
Rather, you're being willfully obtuse on the point, which is your prerogative in opinion.

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What?
You haven't sustained any assertion with support and on this point so, as between us, I have the greater authority, knowing the law, the particular system and having the associated experience of that system. And I've given you more than my feeling on the matter.

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You claimed people used to get hanged which didn't act as a deterrent. How do you know this is the case?
Not exactly. Any death penalty will impact those who bring a sort of cost/benefit analysis to the consideration. As for the rest: google U.S. statistics on capital punishment and/or studies involving jurisdictions where capital punishment is on the books compared to where it isn't relative to crimes of passion.

Quote:
I reckon God's standard for the treatment of murderers could apply as well today as it did for ancient Israel.
You mean his standard for the Jews of that day, with their limitations and particular proclivities. They also lived by laws we don't observe. Your reckoning is just another way of expressing an opinion, not a fact. If you want to place us under the law of Leviticus, by way of, you're going to have to make the case why and distinguish why we then don't take their part whole hog, so to speak.

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You reckon it could not. I can't "live by the same law that compelled the Jewish people". We have all new laws that do not submit to God's standard.
You mean the standard given to a particular people. God's standard within the context of the Jewish life. Do you adopt all of that? If not, why not and why the distinction?

Quote:
Things have changed and we have a clear record of what did. One of the things that did not change was God's standard for the punishment of murderers.
You say that. But that's just you restating your opinion. I think God gave a practical, just way of dealing with a problem of moral conduct pre Christ. I also think he allowed for slavery. I don't believe that institution is Christian. It was Jewish. It was of its day and within that provided a moral context.

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Which bible have you been reading?Not obedient to and ignorant of the law.
You missed the sarcasm then. They failed the law. People aren't made better by law.

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Right. We can not know now how good life will be in a society that honours God.
We have a history of societies laying claim to that. They were soon corrupted and immoral failures. That's part of what became of our nation and its founding laws.

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That's a "Yes", right?
You're an intelligent man. Don't act as though you're talking to someone who isn't. I've given you a clear answer and a noteworthy exception that shouldn't be repeated.

You've yet to make any point with either. Have you one? Else, I'm done repeating that response.

And now to bed. Jack will be expecting me bright eyed in about...six hours more or less.






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