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July 26th, 2009, 11:28 PM

Who Justifieth the Ungodly

Rom 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 5:6

For when we [The elect] were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

These verses tells us something about the elect ! First that by nature we are ungodly, children of wrath as others..Eph 2:3

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Amen being children of wrath by nature as others is just another way of saying, that we were ungodly..

But one of the Great Gospel doctrines is described in Rom 4:5 is that God justifieth the ungodly..

Now , get this, The elect are Justified before God. by the obedience and righteousness of Jesus christ [Rom 5: 18-19] while we are dead in

tresspasses and sins, while we are by nature children of wrath even as others, and while by lifestyle, ungodly. While we the elect are in this very sinful condition, that we are Justified by Jesus christ blood and clothed in His imputed righteousness, even though we dont know it at the Time, but God knows it , because He is the one who did it..

Rom 8:33-34

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

You see, most false teachers today think that Rom 8 :33 applies to post conversion, but it also applies to pre conversion, for God Justifieth the ungodly, before they are converted..

Thats why its of grace..Titus 3:7

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Its by grace because of the sinful condtion we are in by nature when we are Justified before God..
__________________





"All things turn out according to Divine predestination, "There is no such thing as chance or fortune, nor is there a readier way to gain the fear of God, and to put our whole trust in Him, than to be thoroughly versed in the doctrine of predestination." Philipp Melanchthon

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Justification by Faith - August 16th, 2009, 08:45 AM

Justification by Faith

Justification by Faith is in two senses, First and foremost Its Justification by the Faith / Faithfulness of Jesus Christ. For its by this Faith alone how The elect obtain Justification before God, by the Blood and obedience of Jesus Christ, for all whom He died in their place and stead..

Rom 5:9,18-19

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Note, being Now Justified by His blood, not our Faith + His blood, thats a false Gospel, but by His blood..to whom is this True of ? Not only the roman believers, but to all the election of grace of all time..Thats who Justified by His blood..

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men[of all time] to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men [of all time] unto justification of life.

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Again no mention of our Faith as a securing means of Justification unto Life or being made righteous, but solely the obedience and righteousness of One Jesus Christ..

This constitutes the Faith / faithfulness of Jesus Christ..Therefore its written The Faith of Jesus Christ:

Gal 2:16,20

16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In Faithfulness Jesus christ Loved the elect and gave himself for them..


Then in a secondary sense and premised on the First and foremost, the elect sinner is Justified consciously, by the regenerating work of the Holy Ghost, because of their previous justification by the work of Christ, they now have that revealed to them by God the Holy Ghost through the Gospel..but be careful not to confuse the receiving experientially the status of Justification before God [by the work of Christ] with the experiential aspect of conscience Justification by the work of the Holy Ghost upon and in the already Justified before God sinner.. 1 Cor 6:11

11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Now, though the work of the Holy Ghost is extremely Important and needed for the enjoyment of the work of Christ in the elects behalf, His blessed work should never be on the same level or above the Justifying work of the Son of God upon the cross..to do so leads to heresy and anti Christ teaching.

For it was not the Work of the Holy Ghost to die in the place of elect sinners for 1 Cor 15:3

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

This scripture teaches Christ died for our [the elect] sins, but not a word about the Holy Ghost dying for the sins of the elect.

Isa 53:6

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him [Jesus Christ] the iniquity of us all.

Here, the iniquities of the elect were laid upon him [Jesus Christ] and not the Holy Ghost..

Rom 5: 9 declares Having been Justified [declared righteous] by the blood of Jesus Christ, but not a word about being Justified by the work of the Holy Ghost blood..

Finally Jesus states that the Holy Ghost will not speak of Himself [ draw attention to Himself] but should Glorify Him..Jn 16:13-14

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine [My accomplishment], and shall shew it unto you.

He shall receive of the finished accomplished Justification of Gods elect through Jesus Christ and on their behalf, and shew [ reveal] it to them..


To confuse or mix the Two types of Justification, Legal and experiential[conscious] is fatal..and will not go unpunished..and only those not taught by our Covenant God is at peril..





"All things turn out according to Divine predestination, "There is no such thing as chance or fortune, nor is there a readier way to gain the fear of God, and to put our whole trust in Him, than to be thoroughly versed in the doctrine of predestination." Philipp Melanchthon

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August 16th, 2009, 10:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
Who Justifieth the Ungodly
rom 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 5:6

For when we [The elect] were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

These verses tells us something about the elect ! First that by nature we are ungodly, children of wrath as others..eph 2:

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Amen being children of wrath by nature as others is just another way of saying, that we were ungodly..

But one of the Great Gospel doctrines is described in rom 4 5 is that God justifieth the ungodly..

Now , get this, The elect are Justified before God. by the obedience and righteousness of Jesus christ [rom 5 18, 19] while we are dead in

tresspasses and sins, while we are by nature children of wrath even as others, and while by lifestyle, ungodly. While we the elect are in this very sinful condition, that we are Justified by Jesus christ blood and clothed in His imputed righteousness, even though we dont know it at the Time, but God knows it , because He is the one who did it..

rom 8:

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

You see, most false teachers today think that rom 8 33 applies to post conversion, but it also applies to pre conversion, for God Justifieth the ungodly, before they are converted..

Thats why its of grace..Titus 3:

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Its by grace because of the sinful condtion we are in by nature when we are Justified before God..
__________________

Romans 4:3 the scripture just ahead of Romans 4:5 about how God justifies the ungodly, says "That Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness." This is how people are saved they believe. There is nothing here about anyone being elected except what you interject.

Romans 4:5, says, "But to him that worketh not, BUT BELIEVES ON HIM that justifies the ungodly, HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." We believe on Christ to be saved, no one is predestinated or elected. There is no need for that.



   
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August 16th, 2009, 11:23 PM

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Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
Romans 4:3 the scripture just ahead of Romans 4:5 about how God justifies the ungodly, says "That Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness." This is how people are saved they believe. There is nothing here about anyone being elected except what you interject.

Romans 4:5, says, "But to him that worketh not, BUT BELIEVES ON HIM that justifies the ungodly, HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." We believe on Christ to be saved, no one is predestinated or elected. There is no need for that.
Here you come with your Jesus christ hating self..what up fool ?





"All things turn out according to Divine predestination, "There is no such thing as chance or fortune, nor is there a readier way to gain the fear of God, and to put our whole trust in Him, than to be thoroughly versed in the doctrine of predestination." Philipp Melanchthon
   
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August 19th, 2009, 03:55 AM

I am ungodly and I have no respect for your need for my justification.

Stuart



   
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August 19th, 2009, 11:14 PM

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Originally Posted by Stuu View Post
I am ungodly and I have no respect for your need for my justification.

Stuart
More than likely your of the seed of the devil on your way to the lake of fire..





"All things turn out according to Divine predestination, "There is no such thing as chance or fortune, nor is there a readier way to gain the fear of God, and to put our whole trust in Him, than to be thoroughly versed in the doctrine of predestination." Philipp Melanchthon
   
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August 20th, 2009, 01:29 AM

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Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
More than likely your of the seed of the devil on your way to the lake of fire..
I think hell is reserved for those who cannot spell.

Stuart



   
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August 21st, 2009, 03:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
Who Justifieth the Ungodly
rom 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 5:6

For when we [The elect] were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

These verses tells us something about the elect ! First that by nature we are ungodly, children of wrath as others..eph 2:

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Amen being children of wrath by nature as others is just another way of saying, that we were ungodly..

But one of the Great Gospel doctrines is described in rom 4 5 is that God justifieth the ungodly..

Now , get this, The elect are Justified before God. by the obedience and righteousness of Jesus christ [rom 5 18, 19] while we are dead in

tresspasses and sins, while we are by nature children of wrath even as others, and while by lifestyle, ungodly. While we the elect are in this very sinful condition, that we are Justified by Jesus christ blood and clothed in His imputed righteousness, even though we dont know it at the Time, but God knows it , because He is the one who did it..

rom 8:

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

You see, most false teachers today think that rom 8 33 applies to post conversion, but it also applies to pre conversion, for God Justifieth the ungodly, before they are converted..

Thats why its of grace..Titus 3:

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Its by grace because of the sinful condtion we are in by nature when we are Justified before God..
__________________
Justification is spoken of differently in the Tanakh than what you are trying to imply here.

Job 13:18

Even Jesus said that by your words shalt thou be justified and by them shalt thou be condemned.

He also said that wisdom is justified of all her children. You don't gain wisdom through perfection, ya know.

There are even places in your own NT, as well as the Tanakh, that says God is justified by the people...

I think you are quite confused. If you are dead in your sins, then how do you even know it? Ecclesiastes is clear that there is no knowledge, wisdom, device, nor work in death. So those who are in their sins, if they are dead, then they do not know they are sinning and you are condemning the wrong people rather than being merciful.

Perhaps that's why Jesus said, "But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless." He also said, "But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Sacrifice obviously had nothing to do with what he was here for by his own admission.

Blood does not justify ... do you know anything of the lesson that David learned?

Obviously not .. then, can you at least admit that your doctrine in the NT is not founded at all in the Tanakh .. for you will not find what you are promoting within its context.





May Hashem bless you and keep watch over you;
May Hashem make His Presence enlighten you, and may He be kind to you;
May Hashem bestow favor on you, and grant you peace.
   
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Rom 5:1 - December 13th, 2009, 01:11 AM

Rom 5:1

Being Justified by Faith !

What does this mean ? For many deceivers are out in the world and have so misapplied this verse to make it say something that it really does not say or mean, and that is that one is saved or Justified before God because of their Faith, meaning their act of believing, that their act of believing is the causative reason of their Justification before God ! Let me say without hesitation that this teaching is Antichrist in that its against the True basis of Justification, and that namely is the Lord Jesus Christ..against His accomplishment on the cross..Its the blood of Jesus christ and the grace of God that Justifies sinners, and i will prove this from scriptures. Also keep in mind, that Faith is a noun not a verb as in something we do, but its a substance.

Rom 5:1

1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Let me start off by saying, what Paul does not mean here, and that is, Paul is not teaching that one is Justified [before God] by or because of their act of Faith, since #1, Faith is a noun in this verse..and if we use the verb believing, then we are saying that God Justified because of something I did, which was believe..Thats works..

And even more so, Paul cannot contradict his own teaching in other portions of Gods word as to the True source of Justification before God! First of all Paul teaches that the elect are Justified by the blood of Jesus Christ Rom 5:9a

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Paul clearly teaches that Justification is by the blood of Jesus Christ..





"All things turn out according to Divine predestination, "There is no such thing as chance or fortune, nor is there a readier way to gain the fear of God, and to put our whole trust in Him, than to be thoroughly versed in the doctrine of predestination." Philipp Melanchthon

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December 13th, 2009, 02:05 AM

Quote:
Beloved57:You see, most false teachers today think that rom 8 33 applies to post conversion, but it also applies to pre conversion, for God Justifieth the ungodly, before they are converted..
I am about to commend you for a good post but then you contradicted yourself again with this statement.

Does God justify even before conversion? Even before they repent and believe in Jesus? You just said they were children of wrath,Eph.2:3 before conversion.

What is clear is that God effects justification(imputes the righteousness of Christ,etc,etc) after the regenerated soul exercises repentance and faith in Jesus.

God is angry with the wicked,Psa.7:11. He is at war with the ungodly. So real peace with God is realized in the life of the believer only after justification,Rom.5:1.





......, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.Luk 17:10
   
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December 14th, 2009, 01:37 PM

So Paul declares that the elect having been Justified by Christ blood, shall be delivered from the wrath to come..

2ndly, Paul teaches that by the righteous act of one [ Christ] Justification comes upon all men, that is, all men in Him at the time of His righteous act..observe Rom 5:18b

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

This reads in exact contrast with the results of the one who made offence [ Adam] resulting in Gods condemnation and Judgment..for each of the heads brought about a Divine Judicial verdict on all those whom they represented..By the righteousness or righteous act of Jesus Christ, meaning His death, the free gift of Justification of life came upon [ not was offered or made available] but came upon all men [ in Christ at the time , his seed, as Adam had a seed in him] unto Justification of life..

The Justification unto life by the right act of one, called down the free Gift of Justification of life..

Thats why Paul wrote earlier in Rom 3:24

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

The redemption that is in Christ Jesus, again pointing to His redeeming blood and or death..

So we know Paul did not mean in Rom 5:1 that the elect are Justified by their act of believing or Faith, because it again contradicts Paul's overall teaching of this subject, and would make void the accomplishment of the redeeming death and blood of Jesus christ..and thats what satan and his messengers desire to do, to take the crown from Jesus head, and place it upon the head of man..





"All things turn out according to Divine predestination, "There is no such thing as chance or fortune, nor is there a readier way to gain the fear of God, and to put our whole trust in Him, than to be thoroughly versed in the doctrine of predestination." Philipp Melanchthon

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December 14th, 2009, 06:28 PM

So, so far in exposing the False teaching that the elect are saved or Justified because of their act of Faith or believing..we see that contradicts other clear teaching of paul that #1, the elect are Justified by the blood of Jesus christ Rom 5:9

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

That is when He bore their sins as prophesied Isa 53:11

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. [shed His blood]

2ndly we find that paul teaches that by the righteous act of one [ Jesus christ] Justification came upon all men..not offered, not made available, but Sovereignly came upon them..Rom 5:18


18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Now show me in this verse where it says that Justification of life came upon all men because they had faith ?

Thirdly, Paul teaches in vs 19 of Romans 5:19 that by the obedience of one, many shall be made righteous ..

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now where does it say that by their faith shall many be made righteous ? Paul says by the obedience of one many shall be made righteous..Now who is that one ?





"All things turn out according to Divine predestination, "There is no such thing as chance or fortune, nor is there a readier way to gain the fear of God, and to put our whole trust in Him, than to be thoroughly versed in the doctrine of predestination." Philipp Melanchthon

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December 14th, 2009, 09:31 PM

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Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
So, so far in exposing the False teaching that the elect are saved or Justified because of their act of Faith or believing..we see that contradicts other clear teaching of paul that #1, the elect are Justified by the blood of Jesus christ rom 5:

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

That is when He bore their sins as prophesied Isa 53:

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. [shed His blood]

2ndly we find that paul teaches that by the righteous act of one [ Jesus christ] Justification came upon all men..not offered, not made available, but Sovereignly came upon them..rom 5:


18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Now show me in this verse where it says that Justification of life came upon all men because they had faith ?

Thirdly, Paul teaches in vs 19 of romans 5 that by the obedience of one, many shall be made righteous ..

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now where does it say that by their faith shall many be made righteous ? Paul says by the obedience of one many shall be made righteous..Now who is that one ?
I agree with you 100% that it is not the believer's act of exercising faith that justifies but the righteousness(Rom.3:22KJV), blood(Rom.5:9), grace(Titus3:7) and faith of Christ(Gal.2:16KJV,Gal..3:22,Php.3:9KJV) imputed to the believer.

But I disagree with your position that the imputation is applied pre-conversion. The Scripture is clear that imputation is after the regenerated soul exercises faith in Jesus, Rom.4:24,5:1, Gal.2:16.





......, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.Luk 17:10
   
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December 15th, 2009, 05:30 AM

unprof:

Quote:
But I disagree with your position that the imputation is applied pre-conversion.
The imputation was before the word began, for it occured when their sins were imputed to Christ..

The sins of the elect were not imputed on christ at the cross, but thats when He was actually punished for them in the time state..but they were imoputed to Him when He was made a surety by the everlasting covenant.

heb 7:

22By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Hence Jesus was slain in Gods estimation before the world began rev 13:


8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Now that its established that the sins of the elect were imputed to christ before the world began, then that was their Justification, their righteousness..for Justification is nothing less than being declared righteous..

Faith is alloted to all them who have been made righteous by imputation..

to say that righteousness is applied after the excercise of Faith, is a false doctrine, and more than suggest that man is made righteous because of his actions, his exercise of faith..





"All things turn out according to Divine predestination, "There is no such thing as chance or fortune, nor is there a readier way to gain the fear of God, and to put our whole trust in Him, than to be thoroughly versed in the doctrine of predestination." Philipp Melanchthon
   
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December 15th, 2009, 05:38 AM

Paul then goes on to write that the elect are Justified by Grace Titus 3:7

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

And this is freely, without cause of us, Just being of the election of grace. Rom 3:24

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption [blood] that is in Christ Jesus:

The word freely here is the greek word:

dōrean: which means:


freely, undeservedly and is translated without a cause as here:

Jn 15:25

25But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.


Redemption is through His blood, of which His Grace operates towards the elect..

Eph 1:7

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

In light of these scriptures, we continue to expose the false teaching of the antichrist followers who would take the crown from Jesus head and place it upon their own..





"All things turn out according to Divine predestination, "There is no such thing as chance or fortune, nor is there a readier way to gain the fear of God, and to put our whole trust in Him, than to be thoroughly versed in the doctrine of predestination." Philipp Melanchthon

Last edited by beloved57; February 4th, 2014 at 04:26 PM..
   
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