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  • #31
    Originally posted by Absolute_Agent View Post
    Apparently you are misinformed about Islam. I'm interested though, why the belief that Jesus (AS) died and resurrected is such an all-consuming tenet of your faith, such that it obliterates all other considerations?

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    Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise.For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. - 1 Corinthians 15:12-19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...19&version=NIV

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Absolute_Agent View Post
      Apparently you are misinformed about Islam.
      In what way.
      Originally posted by Absolute_Agent View Post
      I'm interested though, why the belief that Jesus (AS) died and resurrected is such an all-consuming tenet of your faith, such that it obliterates all other considerations?
      Because if the Resurrection of Christ is nonfiction historical fact, as authentic Christians (Catholic or not) believe, then the Christian faith is irresistibly true.

      And 1st Corinthians 15:14 KJV.

      So it's either 'yea' or 'nay;' no third option.
      "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

      @Nee_Nihilo

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      • #33
        Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
        Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise.For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. - 1 Corinthians 15:12-19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...19&version=NIV
        So, on the assumed authority of St. Paul? Modern Christianity stands out falls on the word of Paul, Pharisee, self-proclaimed liar and conflicted braggart, am I correct?

        "And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars." Revelation 2:2

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Absolute_Agent View Post
          So, on the assumed authority of St. Paul?
          Note that I made no appeal to authority.

          I simply quoted what he said.

          Was what Paul said true or false in the above passage?

          Modern Christianity stands out falls on the word of Paul, Pharisee, self-proclaimed liar and conflicted braggart, am I correct?

          "And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars." Revelation 2:2

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Idolater View Post
            In what way.
            We'll get to that inshallah; right now it wouldn't matter to you since belief in a historical resurrection of Jesus (AS) is your only consideration.

            Originally posted by Idolater View Post
            Because if the Resurrection of Christ is nonfiction historical fact, as authentic Christians (Catholic or not) believe, then the Christian faith is irresistibly true.
            So it is a matter of political utility. A necessary truth? Christianity needs this doctrine for it to be an irresistible force--or as I previously said, a "military expedient"?

            Originally posted by Idolater View Post
            And 1st Corinthians 15:14 KJV.
            (The verifiability of it being an afterthought)

            Originally posted by Idolater View Post
            So it's either 'yea' or 'nay;' no third option.
            --What matters is that there is no room for debate, no discussion and no intelligent inquiry, no grey areas. A useful doctrine indeed, allowing for quick, mechanistic "convert or perish" decisions on the battle field and fail-safe political litmus tests in key power struggles. Because you see, the fear of death is the greatest of all human fears, and this doctrine allows you to masterfully manipulate all but the most resolute of heart.

            --Right?



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            • #36
              Originally posted by Absolute_Agent View Post
              We'll get to that inshallah
              What I said was that Muslims do not believe in the Resurrection of Christ, and that Muslims do not generally believe in the inalienable human right to religious liberty, or to the pursuit of happiness. What part don't I understand about Islam.
              Originally posted by Absolute_Agent View Post
              ; right now it wouldn't matter to you since belief in a historical resurrection of Jesus (AS) is your only consideration.
              Because I'm . . . a Christian.

              And you are a Muslim. Is Muhammad (SAW) being a prophet of Allah "your only consideration?" Meaning, if we insist that he was not a prophet, would you "consider" anything else? Wouldn't that leave your faith empty, if Muhammad (PPUH&HH) were not a prophet of Allah?

              Same with Christ's Resurrection, for Catholics.
              Originally posted by Absolute_Agent View Post
              So it is a matter of political utility. A necessary truth? Christianity needs this doctrine for it to be an irresistible force--or as I previously said, a "military expedient"?
              I said what I meant and I said it clearly, and I did not invoke anything like this "political utility" or "military expedient." Those are your imported thoughts.
              Originally posted by Absolute_Agent View Post
              (The verifiability of it being an afterthought)
              What?
              Originally posted by Absolute_Agent View Post
              --What matters is that there is no room for debate, no discussion and no intelligent inquiry, no grey areas.
              Not on the question of whether Jesus of Nazareth is risen from the dead, no there is no grey area on that one. You either believe in His Resurrection, and you're a Christian, or you reject His Resurrection as fictional, and you're not a Christian. No third option.
              Originally posted by Absolute_Agent View Post
              A useful doctrine indeed, allowing for quick, mechanistic "convert or perish" decisions on the battle field and fail-safe political litmus tests in key power struggles. Because you see, the fear of death is the greatest of all human fears, and this doctrine allows you to masterfully manipulate all but the most resolute of heart.

              --Right?
              What?

              Fact remains that He is risen from the dead, or He is not risen from the dead. No third option, no matter what all your obscure post here means.
              "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

              @Nee_Nihilo

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              • #37
                Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                Note that I made no appeal to authority.

                I simply quoted what he said.

                Was what Paul said true or false in the above passage?
                An appeal to authority is strongly implied when you provide a quote as an answer devoid of qualification, explanation or context within a logical argument.

                In the aforementioned passage, Paul seems to imply that belief in the resurrection of the dead is inextricably looked to the belief in a alleged historical event, namely the resurrection of Christ three odd days after crucifixion. If you don't believe I've you can't believe the other, and if you believe in one you MUST believe in the other. Yet Lazarus was resurrected from the dead and Moses and Elijah ahead alive during the known lifetime of Christ. Yet Muslims believe in the resurrection; Job and many OT prophets believed in the resurrection. The disciples believed in the resurrection prior to believing Christ had resurrected. Paul also blends the ascension of Christ with his alled death and resurrection, whereas Muslims would affirm Christ ascended into heaven in bodily form. Like much of Paul's writings it's a humble of half-truths, half-baked logic and confusing assertions. We can't be sure exactly what he believes or is trying to get across. In my assessment this behavior fits the typical description of a dishonest individual.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                  Note that I made no appeal to authority.

                  I simply quoted what he said.

                  Was what Paul said true or false in the above passage?
                  Lots of spelling errors so here is a repost.

                  An appeal to authority is strongly implied when you provide a quote as an answer devoid of qualification, explanation or context within a logical argument.

                  In the aforementioned passage, Paul seems to imply that belief in the resurrection of the dead is inextricably linked to the belief in an alleged historical event, namely the resurrection of Christ three odd days after crucifixion. If you don't believe one you can't believe the other, and if you believe in one you MUST believe in the other. Yet Lazarus was resurrected from the dead and Moses and Elijah appeared alive during the known lifetime of Christ. Yet Muslims believe in the resurrection; Job and many OT prophets believed in the resurrection. The disciples believed in the resurrection prior to believing Christ had resurrected. Paul also blends the ascension of Christ with his alleged death and resurrection, whereas Muslims would affirm Christ ascended into heaven in bodily form. Like much of Paul's writings it's a jumble of half-truths, half-baked logic and confusing assertions. We can't be sure exactly what he believes or is trying to get across. In my assessment this behavior matches the typical description of a dishonest individual.

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                  Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Idolater View Post

                    And you are a Muslim. Is Muhammad (SAW) being a prophet of Allah "your only consideration?" Meaning, if we insist that he was not a prophet, would you "consider" anything else? Wouldn't that leave your faith empty, if Muhammad (PPUH&HH) were not a prophet of Allah?
                    I AM a Muslim. I already knew Christendom rejected Muhammad (SAW) as a prophet, yet I'm still interested in understanding your beliefs. What does that tell you?

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Absolute_Agent View Post
                      ...I'm still interested in understanding your beliefs.
                      The Resurrection of Christ is the central and crowning truth of authentic Christian faith.

                      I also believe that Islam does not accept that human beings possess the inalienable right to the pursuit of happiness.
                      "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

                      @Nee_Nihilo

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Idolater View Post
                        The Resurrection of Christ is the central and crowning truth of authentic Christian faith.
                        Yes, but why???

                        Originally posted by Idolater View Post
                        I also believe that Islam does not accept that human beings possess the inalienable right to the pursuit of happiness.
                        Yes you do, and I already know why you mistakenly believe that.



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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Idolater View Post
                          The Resurrection of Christ is the central and crowning truth of authentic Christian faith.
                          Originally posted by Absolute_Agent View Post
                          Yes, but why???
                          Asked and answered:
                          Originally posted by Idolater View Post
                          Because if the Resurrection of Christ is nonfiction historical fact, as authentic Christians (Catholic or not) believe, then the Christian faith is irresistibly true.

                          And 1st Corinthians 15:14 KJV.

                          So it's either 'yea' or 'nay;' no third option.
                          Originally posted by Idolater View Post
                          I also believe that Islam does not accept that human beings possess the inalienable right to the pursuit of happiness.
                          Originally posted by Absolute_Agent View Post
                          Yes you do, and I already know why you mistakenly believe that.
                          If I am mistaken then please instruct me, so that I may confidently agree with what you're implying, that Islam does generally believe in the inalienable human right to religious liberty, and to the pursuit of happiness.

                          You won't because you can't because it's false: Islam does not generally believe in the right to religious liberty.
                          "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

                          @Nee_Nihilo

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Idolater View Post
                            Asked and answered:
                            Twice, yes. The first was an argument of necessity: Essentially, "Jesus' death and resurrection is true because we need it to be--we need Christianity to be an irresistible force."

                            The second was a scripture reference to Paul's argument, which is similar: we need it to be true because otherwise we're a pack of lunatics. He asserts other false claims such as that Christ was the first to rise from the dead, using faulty logic to imply that without this alleged historical event it is impossible to believe in resurrection at all. Apparently he was unaware that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead during his ministry, or that Elijah raised a youngster from the dead during his, or that Job and other prophets believed in resurrection long before Jesus ever walked the Earth.
                            Originally posted by Idolater View Post
                            If I am mistaken then please instruct me, so that I may confidently agree with what you're implying, that Islam does generally believe in the inalienable human right to religious liberty, and to the pursuit of happiness.

                            .
                            All in good time Idolater, all in good time.


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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Absolute_Agent View Post
                              In the aforementioned passage, Paul seems to imply that belief in the resurrection of the dead is inextricably linked to the belief in an alleged historical event, namely the resurrection of Christ three odd days after crucifixion. . . .
                              You're dodging the question.

                              Is what Paul said, regardless of his authority as an apostle, true or false, that if Christ did not rise from the dead, then Christianity is vain?

                              Also the inverse, that if Christ DID rise from the dead, then all other religions and belief systems are vain (in other words, only Christianity is true)?

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Absolute_Agent View Post
                                Twice, yes. The first was an argument of necessity: Essentially, "Jesus' death and resurrection is true because we need it to be--we need Christianity to be an irresistible force."

                                The second was a scripture reference to Paul's argument, which is similar: we need it to be true because otherwise we're a pack of lunatics. He asserts other false claims such as that Christ was the first to rise from the dead, using faulty logic to imply that without this alleged historical event it is impossible to believe in resurrection at all. Apparently he was unaware that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead during his ministry, or that Elijah raised a youngster from the dead during his, or that Job and other prophets believed in resurrection long before Jesus ever walked the Earth.
                                All in good time Idolater, all in good time.


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                                Man, you're a troll.
                                "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

                                @Nee_Nihilo

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