Theology Club: Total Depravity

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

Romans 5:12 proves my point:

"death spread to all men, because all sinned" (Ro.5:12).
​

Spiritual death spread to all men BECAUSE ALL SINNED.

So what's your point? Do you not believe God is Sovereign and knew this would happen? Are you also saying there would still be physical death that this refers only to spiritual death? Death, physical and spiritual death spread to all men because of Adam.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Every man is tempted every man sins and that sin brings forth death. That's how I see it.

Yes, it is a person's own sin which brings about spiritual death and not Adam's sin.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Are you also saying there would still be physical death that this refers only to spiritual death?

Yes, it refers only to spiritual death. Our physical death does not happen as a result of our own sin. Instead, when mankind was denied accesss to the Tree of Life all men were to die physically:

" And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken" (Gen.3:22-23).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Lmk when you're ready for Paul

In the following passage the Apostle Paul speaks of being "alive" once and when the commandment came he "died":

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).​

Paul is not speaking of "physical" death because he was alive physically when he wrote those words. He is speaking about breaking one of the Ten Commandments (v.7) and it was that which resulted in his "spiritual death."

In a commentary written by the faculty of Dallas Theological Seminary John A. Witmer writes:

"As a result Paul 'died' spiritually (cf. 6:23a) under the sentence of judgment by the Law he had broken...so this sin deceived him...and 'put' him 'to death' (lit., 'killed' him), not physically but spiritually" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament , ed. Walvoord and Zuck [Colorado Springs: Chariot Victor Publishing, 1983], 467).

 

[intojoy]

Yes, it is a person's own sin which brings about spiritual death and not Adam's sin.

Lol

 

[intojoy]

In the following passage the Apostle Paul speaks of being "alive" once and when the commandment came he "died":

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).​

Paul is not speaking of "physical" death because he was alive physically when he wrote those words. He is speaking about breaking one of the Ten Commandments (v.7) and it was that which resulted in his "spiritual death."



In a commentary written by the faculty of Dallas Theological Seminary John A. Witmer writes:



"As a result Paul 'died' spiritually (cf. 6:23a) under the sentence of judgment by the Law he had broken...so this sin deceived him...and 'put' him 'to death' (lit., 'killed' him), not physically but spiritually" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament , ed. Walvoord and Zuck [Colorado Springs: Chariot Victor Publishing, 1983], 467).

All wrong

 

[Jerry Shugart]

All wrong

Could you please be more specific?

Thanks!

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

Yes, it refers only to spiritual death. Our physical death does not happen as a result of our own sin. Instead, when mankind was denied accesss to the Tree of Life all men were to die physically:

" And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken" (Gen.3:22-23).
​

Do you believe God was surprised by the actions of Adam? Do you believe God is not sovereign?

 

[intojoy]

Could you please be more specific?



Thanks!

I remember this convo previously. You rejected my take.

Here it is for the rest of the class, the honest students hehe joke

Paul alive once- born again
Paul died- went back to using the law

Paul's error- he thought that he, now that he got saved was going to use the Torah to live a pleasing fruitful life in Yeshua.

He started coveting more when he realized that using the Torah which was a good and righteous law, that his flesh or sin nature used Torah to break it. This is why Paul writes such great contrasts between a life lived by grace giving rather than tithing.

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

Yes, it refers only to spiritual death. Our physical death does not happen as a result of our own sin. Instead, when mankind was denied accesss to the Tree of Life all men were to die physically:

" And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken" (Gen.3:22-23).
​

So you blame God, not Adam, for physical death. You just give Him a piece of your mind. Go ahead, you can spare it, it's not like you're using it.

 

[intojoy]

So you blame God, not Adam, for physical death. You just give Him a piece of your mind. Go ahead, you can spare it, it's not like you're using it.

Lol

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So you blame God, not Adam, for physical death.

No, the cause of all people's "physical" death goes back to Adam's sin. But it was the Lord who made the Tree of Life unavailable to all of mankind:

" And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken" (Gen.3:22-23).​

So Adam's sin was responsible for man's "physical" death but not for our "spiritual" death.

You just give Him a piece of your mind. Go ahead, you can spare it, it's not like you're using it.

Wasn't it you who quoted Paul in an effort to prove that we die spiritually as a result of Adam's sin? And does not that verse say that we die because of our own sin?

I would say that it is you who is not using your mind, not me.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul alive once- born again
Paul died- went back to using the law

In what way was he alive first? Since he says that he died as a result of beaking a commandment that death cannot be in regard to his physical death because he remained alive at that time.

Do you disagree with what is said in this commentary, one edited by John Walvoord?:

"As a result Paul 'died' spiritually (cf. 6:23a) under the sentence of judgment by the Law he had broken...so this sin deceived him...and 'put' him 'to death' (lit., 'killed' him), not physically but spiritually" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament , edited byWalvoord and Zuck, [Colorado Springs: Chariot Victor Publishing, 1983], 467).

 

[intojoy]

In what way was he alive first? Since he says that he died as a result of beaking a commandment that death cannot be in regard to his physical death because he remained alive at that time.



Do you disagree with what is said in this commentary, one edited by John Walvoord?:



"As a result Paul 'died' spiritually (cf. 6:23a) under the sentence of judgment by the Law he had broken...so this sin deceived him...and 'put' him 'to death' (lit., 'killed' him), not physically but spiritually" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament , edited byWalvoord and Zuck, [Colorado Springs: Chariot Victor Publishing, 1983], 467).

You failing MannyBottles.

You answered your own question kimosabi

One can only be made alive by being born anew.

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

No, the cause of all people's "physical" death goes back to Adam's sin. But it was the Lord who made the Tree of Life unavailable to all of mankind.

From the Believer's Bible Commentary

5:12 The rest of chapter 5 serves as a bridge between the first part of the letter and the next three chapters. It is linked with the first part by picking up the subjects of condemnation through Adam and justification through Christ, and by showing that the work of Christ far outweighs in blessing what the work of Adam did in misery and loss. It is linked with chapters 6-8 by moving from justification to sanctification, and from acts of sin to the sin in human nature.

Adam is portrayed in these verses as the federal head or representative of all those who are in the old creation. Christ is presented as the Federal Head of all those who are in the new creation. A federal head acts for all those who are under him. For example, when the President of a country signs a bill into law, he is acting for all the citizens of that country.
That is what happened in Adam's case. As a result of his sin, human death entered the world. Death became the common lot of all Adam's descendants because they had all sinned in him. It is true that they all committed individual acts of sin as well, but that is not the thought here. Paul's point is that Adam's sin was a representative act, and all his posterity are reckoned as having sinned in him.

Someone might object that it was Eve and not Adam who committed the first sin on earth. That is true, but since Adam was the first to be created, headship was given to him. So he is seen as acting for all his descendants.

When the Apostle Paul says here that death spread to all men, he is referring to physical death, even though Adam's sin brought spiritual death as well. (Vv. 13 and 14 show that physical death is in view.)
When we come to this passage of Scripture, certain questions inevitably arise. Is it fair that Adam's posterity should be constituted sinners just because he sinned? Does God condemn men for being born sinners, or only for those sins which they have actually committed? If men are born with a sinful nature, and if they therefore sin because they are born sinners, how can God hold them responsible for what they do?

Bible scholars have wrestled with these and a host of similar problems and have come up with a surprising variety of conclusions. However, there are certain facts that we can be sure of.

First, the Bible does teach that all men are sinners, both by nature and by practice. Everyone born of human parents inherits Adam's sin, and also sins by his own deliberate choice.

Second, we know that the wages of sin is death—both physical death and eternal separation from God.

But no one has to pay the penalty of sin unless he wants to. This is the important point. At enormous cost, God sent His Son to die as a Substitute for sinners. Salvation from sin and its wages is offered as a free gift through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Man is condemned on three grounds: He has a sinful nature, Adam's sin is imputed to him, and he is a sinner by practice. But his crowning guilt is his rejection of the provision which God has made for his salvation (Joh_3:18-19, Joh_3:36).

But someone will ask, "What about those who have never heard the gospel?" This question is answered in part, at least, in chapter 1. Beyond that we can rest in the assurance that the Judge of all the earth will do right (Gen_18:25). He will never act unjustly or unfairly. All His decisions are based on equity and righteousness. Although certain situations pose problems to our dim sight, they are not problems to Him. When the last case has been heard and the doors of the courtroom swing shut, no one will have a legitimate basis for appealing the verdict.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

One can only be made alive by being born anew.

A person emerges from the womb spiritually alive. Then when he sins he dies spiritually. Then when he believes the gospel he is born spiritually again.

Do you disagree with what is said in this commentary, one edited by John Walvoord?:

"As a result Paul 'died' spiritually (cf. 6:23a) under the sentence of judgment by the Law he had broken...so this sin deceived him...and 'put' him 'to death' (lit., 'killed' him), not physically but spiritually" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament , edited by Walvoord and Zuck, [Colorado Springs: Chariot Victor Publishing, 1983], 467).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

When the Apostle Paul says here that death spread to all men, he is referring to physical death,

That makes no sense and I have already shown why all men die physically and it is not as a result of his own sin but because hhe has no access to the very thing which would allow him to live forever:

" And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken" (Gen.3:22-23).​

From that point in time it was determined that men would die physically and no one dies physically as a result of his own sin:

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Heb.9:27).​

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

That makes no sense and I have already shown why all men die physically and it is not as a result of his own sin but because hhe has no access to the very thing which would allow him to live forever:

" And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken" (Gen.3:22-23).
​

From that point in time it was determined that men would die physically and no one dies physically as a result of his own sin:

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Heb.9:27).
​

I disagree with your interpretation of scripture. But you already knew that right?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I disagree with your interpretation of scripture. But you already knew that right?

You say that you disagree with what I said but you said nothing that proves that what I said is in error.

 

[intojoy]

A person emerges from the womb spiritually alive. Then when he sins he dies spiritually. Then when he believes the gospel he is born spiritually again.



Do you disagree with what is said in this commentary, one edited by John Walvoord?:

"As a result Paul 'died' spiritually (cf. 6:23a) under the sentence of judgment by the Law he had broken...so this sin deceived him...and 'put' him 'to death' (lit., 'killed' him), not physically but spiritually" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament , edited by Walvoord and Zuck, [Colorado Springs: Chariot Victor Publishing, 1983], 467).​

Arnold told me the story of his days at Dallas theological seminary when Walvoord was the Dean.

Arnold and his wife were celebrating their anniversary at a restaurant and ordered a bottle of wine with their dinner. Walvoord who was against drinking of any kind saw them at the restaurant and Arnold asked of he should avoid the wine in dr walvoord's presence.

He decided that because Walvoord was not a "weaker brother" (rom 15) that they would go ahead and enjoy the wine.