He made a charge, Randy:
" I do have a problem with MAD disp people saying non-MAD disp people are not saved (you are not guilty of this, but johnw, STP, Nick, etc. are)."-Clavin
For Sincere Inquisitors ONLY: MAD Explained
- Thread starter chickenman
- Start date
He made a charge, Randy:
" I do have a problem with MAD disp people saying non-MAD disp people are not saved (you are not guilty of this, but johnw, STP, Nick, etc. are)."-Clavin
Got it.
I was really asking about mortals outside the inherited land of the saints who were not resurrected saints.
Could any of those "mortals" (outside of Israel) see the "light" and join Israel and their beliefs during the millennium as some outsiders (of Israel) joined Israel in the OT?
And if they can, when do you suppose they would get their glorified body?
The reason I ask is because of those who follow Satan AFTER the millennium has ended (or at least at the end of it).
Revelation 20
(7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
(8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Could any of them have avoided this fate if they had turned to God and joined Israel during the millennium?(7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
(8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Or is that when the resurrection of the saints happens (as they inherit the land in the beginning of the millennium) then that is the cut-off point for anymore to be saved?
In other words, by the time the millennium begins, all the believing circumcision (Israel) and uncircumcision (BOC) have been resurrected in glorified bodies.
Do you see any time after this resurrection that anyone else could possibly turn to God and be saved?
I appreciate you and others taking the time to explain it.
That's why I'm asking specific questions. Because I see some arguing with what MAD does not appear to say.
Ya know, it's hard to criticize a movie or book unless you have actually seen or read the movie or book.
So, before I even consider arguing AGAINST any point of MAD, I want to know what the facts are.
Once I learn the facts, there may actually be nothing at all for me to argue against!!!
No need to blow a lot of hot air until then.
I have a suggestion to keep THIS thread on track.
It someone makes a charge, copy and past it to argue about it in another thread.
That way, THIS thread will not be cluttered with arguments.
Take it or leave it.
Just a suggestion.
Even though she thought she was being clever...
Ezekiel 37
11 Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, ‘Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it,” says the LORD.’”
21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.
This isn't a shadow type. It can't be. While much of the law is, this is a conditional statement of what they stand to inherit.
Matthew 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I'm not arguing about it. The wolf made a charge, I answered it. Take it or leave it.
I apologize that I missed this, tambora.
Thanks, tambora.
Randy
I certainly believe so. The national priesthood will reach out to the Gentile world during that time.
...and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation... Ex. 19:6
Thus saith the Lord of hoses; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you. Zech. 8:23
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established int eh top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. Micha 4:1-2
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost... Matt. 28:19
Thus saith the Lord of hoses; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you. Zech. 8:23
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established int eh top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. Micha 4:1-2
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost... Matt. 28:19
I'm not sure I have a good answer for this one. I'll need to think about it.
With the resurrection of the saints being at the beginning of the 1,000 year reign, then yes. I think the verses above are just a few that point to the evangelism efforts during the kingdom (after that first resurrection of the saints).
That's what this thread is for. So it's my pleasure.
:up: Great, and rare, attitude.
Thanks, tambora.
Randy
Thank you, Chickenman.
Good. Hopefully we can put our heads together (along with others as well) and reason this out.
I'm going to lay out what my present view is, so you can see what needs to be resolved.
My view is that there are no resurrected saints living on earth during the millennium kingdom.
That the restoration of the kingdom of Israel in the millennium is set up by God for mortals as it was before.
And those mortals will be the ones who endure through the tribulation and are brought back to Israel.
One reason I think the millennium kingdom is for mortals is because it is inconceivable to me how all the generations upon generations of saints throughout history could possibly even fit on the specified land along with the ones that are still alive.
While I certainly believe that God can do anything, let's be reasonable.
Unless God resurrects them all the size of tiny midgets, it would be bumper to bumper crowding.
And not to mention that much of that land has to be available for crops and livestock, shops, roads, schools, etc.
There are a couple of other reasons I believe the millennium will be for mortals.
But the above reason needs to be seriously considered.
Even with this view, it does not negate that Israel will be restored as promised.
Nor does it negate that all the saints will be resurrected at some point.
So it does not disagree with MAD doctrine, only the timing.
Good. Hopefully we can put our heads together (along with others as well) and reason this out.
I'm going to lay out what my present view is, so you can see what needs to be resolved.
My view is that there are no resurrected saints living on earth during the millennium kingdom.
That the restoration of the kingdom of Israel in the millennium is set up by God for mortals as it was before.
And those mortals will be the ones who endure through the tribulation and are brought back to Israel.
One reason I think the millennium kingdom is for mortals is because it is inconceivable to me how all the generations upon generations of saints throughout history could possibly even fit on the specified land along with the ones that are still alive.
While I certainly believe that God can do anything, let's be reasonable.
Unless God resurrects them all the size of tiny midgets, it would be bumper to bumper crowding.
And not to mention that much of that land has to be available for crops and livestock, shops, roads, schools, etc.
There are a couple of other reasons I believe the millennium will be for mortals.
But the above reason needs to be seriously considered.
Even with this view, it does not negate that Israel will be restored as promised.
Nor does it negate that all the saints will be resurrected at some point.
So it does not disagree with MAD doctrine, only the timing.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, tambora.
How do your thoughts fit in with Rev. 20, where we see the resurrection of the saints at the beginning of the 1,000 years? Do you read that differently?
Thanks,
Randy
How do your thoughts fit in with Rev. 20, where we see the resurrection of the saints at the beginning of the 1,000 years? Do you read that differently?
Thanks,
Randy
Thanks, Nickoletto!
What do you think? Isaiah says his reign over the throne of David will be without end. Revelation says the saints will reign with him a thousand years. Know what I mean?
Often I hear people say his thousand year reign, and I don't see it that way.
I hear you, Nick. I agree. His earthly reign over the nations will be 1,000 years. And I Cor. 15 says He'll deliver the kingdom to the Father once He's put all rule and authority under His feet. But He'll still be reigning. So I'm with you. :up:
The saints that reign 1000 years were the ones beheaded and did not take the mark of the beast during the tribulation (not from all of history).
Right?
And since they reign with Christ .... and Christ is seated on the right hand of the Father until all His enemies are destroyed .... and Satan (His enemy) is not destroyed until the battle AFTER the millennium .... is it reasonable to assume that they reign with Christ from the heavenlies where Christ is seated for that 1000 years and not earth?
Satan and Death are thrown into the lake of fire AFTER the millennium.
Death is said to be the last enemy.
If Christ is seated on the right hand of the Father in the heavenlies until the last enemy is destroyed, then how can Christ be on earth before then?
See what I mean?
I can't seem to resolve this, so keep talking.
Every little bit helps.
Sorry, tambora.
I'll get back with you later today.
I'll get back with you later today.
Okay, I'm back.
Sorry for the delay. I sometimes check into TOL on my IPhone on Tapatalk. After I view posts on there, they fall off the radar of my UCP subscribed threads. So I forget to get back to the ones to which I need to respond, sometimes. Sorry about that.
But when I consider that in light of additional passages about the resurrection of the last days, it makes me think that the first resurrection also includes the saints who died before that (great tribulation). Things like...
And in Revelation 19, we see Him leading His heavenly army against the nations and then having Satan bound for 1,000 years during His reign with those of the first resurrection. It looks to me like this is on earth, because after that when Satan is let loose, he stirs up the nations for one last battle. They go up on the breadth of the earth and compass the camp of the saints about and the beloved city (Rev. 20:8-9), and are then destroyed. So this reign must be on earth, right?
Can you clarify what you mean with, "...Christ is seated on the right hand of the Father until all His enemies are destroyed"?
And concerning the idea that there would be too many saints from all of history to fit into the earthly kingdom: I'd venture to say that of all those of Israel throughout history, the overwhelming majority rejected God and their Messiah. So maybe numbers isn't an issue, afterall?
Thanks, tambora. I want to change my position if it's wrong, so I appreciate the back-and-forth. :up:
Randy
Sorry for the delay. I sometimes check into TOL on my IPhone on Tapatalk. After I view posts on there, they fall off the radar of my UCP subscribed threads. So I forget to get back to the ones to which I need to respond, sometimes. Sorry about that.
I see two physical resurrections in Revelation. The second is for the great white throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-14). The first is prior to the 1,000 years.
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Rev. 20:4-6
I agree that from the looks of this, it's specifically referring to those who were beheaded, etc. for the witness of Jesus.But when I consider that in light of additional passages about the resurrection of the last days, it makes me think that the first resurrection also includes the saints who died before that (great tribulation). Things like...
Martha saith unto him, I know that [Lazarus] shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. John 11:24
Marvel not a this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:28-29
...and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan. 12:1(b)-2
John 5 and Dan 12 seem to show two resurrections, like Rev. 20 does. Saints resurrected at the first; wicked resurrected at the second. That seems to parallel the two resurrections of Rev. 20, to me.Marvel not a this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:28-29
...and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan. 12:1(b)-2
I can't find where we're told that Christ is to be seated at the right hand of the Father until all His enemies are destroyed. We're told that He remains seated until His enemies are made His footstool.
The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Ps. 110:1
And He did sit down upon His ascension.So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. Mark 16:19
But then Stephen later saw Him standing and ready to judge.But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7:55
And I Cor. 15:25 says that He must reign, till he hath put all enemies under His feet.And in Revelation 19, we see Him leading His heavenly army against the nations and then having Satan bound for 1,000 years during His reign with those of the first resurrection. It looks to me like this is on earth, because after that when Satan is let loose, he stirs up the nations for one last battle. They go up on the breadth of the earth and compass the camp of the saints about and the beloved city (Rev. 20:8-9), and are then destroyed. So this reign must be on earth, right?
Can you clarify what you mean with, "...Christ is seated on the right hand of the Father until all His enemies are destroyed"?
And concerning the idea that there would be too many saints from all of history to fit into the earthly kingdom: I'd venture to say that of all those of Israel throughout history, the overwhelming majority rejected God and their Messiah. So maybe numbers isn't an issue, afterall?
Thanks, tambora. I want to change my position if it's wrong, so I appreciate the back-and-forth. :up:
Randy
Good day Chickenman!
I'm in no hurry about this, so take your time and don't feel rushed.
I'm just glad you are willing to go through it all with me.
I'm going to break my response to your post into separate posts so the posts won't get so long.
Right, there are different resurrections.
Since we are taking our time, I would like to pose something to be considered.
We have a "first" and "second" resurrection.
Obviously this "first" resurrection is not the 1st numerically.
When the graves were opened at the time of Christ's cross and resurrection, it would fall before this "first" resurrection.
Elijah and Enoch would be even before that.
So "first" must mean something other than 1st numerically.
Like "first"born is not always the 1st numerically, but denotes a special nature, a sort of preeminence.
Such as Ephraim who was not firstborn numerically (Jeremiah 31:7), and David who was not firstborn numerically (Psalms 89:27).
So, Elijah, Enoch, and the saints from the open graves would all be part of the "first" resurrection, even though there were gaps of time for those "first" (preeminent) resurrection saints.
I think so too.
And it still would not prevent all remaining saints to be part of the "first" (preeminent) resurrection.
(They don't all have to be resurrected simultaneously to be part of the "first" (preeminent)).
I agree wholeheartedly that the "first" resurrection is only for the faithful, and the "second" resurrection is only for the wicked.
But as we have seen, not every faithful saint was resurrected at the same time.
Fair enough.
The word "destroyed" is not used.
However, we are told that heaven will receive Christ until the restitution of all things.
Acts 3
(21) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
All things.(21) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Would that not also include the restoration of no death, as it was in the garden of Eden before the fall?
And isn't the destruction of Satan part of the plan of restoration to crush the deceiver, so no one can be deceived anymore? (Genesis 3:15)
That doesn't happen until after the millennium when both Satan and Death are cast into the lake of fire.
"Destroyed" may not have been the best word to use.
I did not mean destroy (as in does not exist anymore), but in the sense that Satan and Death are cast away and rendered absolutely powerless to ever deceive again or that anyone will ever die again.
That doesn't happen till after the millennium.