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  • #46
    When I asked you if you believe what Jesus said in Luke 17:3-4 and Matthew 18:15-17, you turned to Mark 11:25 and Luke 6:37(as predicted), figuring those verses somehow trump what Jesus said elsewhere.
    Last edited by Turbo; March 28th, 2004, 10:43 AM.
    BRXI: Should Christians support the Death Penalty?

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    • #47
      Originally posted by BChristianK

      Jeremy is doing a great job, though I would dissagree with him.

      1 thing that I do want to know, how the heck did he get greek characters to show up right on this forum?

      Grace and Peace
      use [ font=symbol]text to be displayed in Greek[/font], only without the space after the first bracket. It will look like this:
      text to be displayed in Greek

      That's a small font. It might help to use the SIZE code to make it a little bigger:
      text to be displayed in Greek


      Any time you see someone do something in their post and you wonder how they did it, just click the "quote" link and look at the code for their post.
      BRXI: Should Christians support the Death Penalty?

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Turbo

        When I asked you if you believe what Jesus said in Luke 17:3-4 and Matthew 18:15-17,
        I believe all of Scripture is God-inspired. I believe those passages...if someone repents we should forgive. But, we all should forgive those who do not repent, in light of those passages I referred to.

        ...you turned to Mark 11:25 and Luke 6:37(as predicted), figuring those verses somehow trump what Jesus said elsewhere.
        Silly boy, those passages speaks of Jesus and his teaching on the subject. He calls us to forgive freely...

        Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.

        Imagine that.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Freak

          Do you believe Jesus when He states:


          Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

          Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

          I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

          Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
          Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.

          I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.

          Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?


          If those under the Law believed in what Jesus declared would they attain eternal life apart from any kind of works?

          Your teaching is borderline heresy but Jesus embodies the very truth that you miliate against.
          That is for starters; without it you don't get in the front door. But you have to work to keep yourself/ourself in the house.

          Comment


          • #50
            seems to be missing? not even faking an interest.
            mmmm. psst granite maybe you can cut and paste something to avoid suspicion of not posting something that does not further your agenda?
            free help here when you need it.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Turbo

              use [ font=symbol]text to be displayed in Greek[/font], only without the space after the first bracket. It will look like this:
              text to be displayed in Greek

              That's a small font. It might help to use the SIZE code to make it a little bigger:
              text to be displayed in Greek


              Any time you see someone do something in their post and you wonder how they did it, just click the "quote" link and look at the code for their post.
              Thanks for the tip
              Grace and Peace

              Comment


              • #52
                You're welcome.
                BRXI: Should Christians support the Death Penalty?

                Comment


                • #53
                  I don't believe there is a substantive difference between Jerry and Acts 9_12 out. Acts 9_12 out is addressing Jerry as if Jerry's understanding of "therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God..." does not carry with it the QUALITY of that faith.
                  Jerry speaks of the sufficiency of faith alone, but in using that perspective, he does not (insofar as I see) deny or rule out the QUALITY of saving faith--that the quality of true faith always issues in works.

                  Acts 9_12 Out's primary perspective is on the quality rather than on the sufficiency of faith, but one of his statements shows clearly that he understands that salvation is through faith, not through works, but he is stressing that the quality of faith by which men have access to God is a faith which works.

                  I don't believe they really disagree. They are, I think, just viewing the same truth from different angles. I believe that before this battle is over they will understand that they are warriors belonging to the same camp.
                  "For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen" Romans 11:36

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

                    I don't believe there is a substantive difference between Jerry and Acts 9_12 out. Acts 9_12 out is addressing Jerry as if Jerry's understanding of "therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God..." does not carry with it the QUALITY of that faith.
                    Jerry speaks of the sufficiency of faith alone, but in using that perspective, he does not (insofar as I see) deny or rule out the QUALITY of saving faith--that the quality of true faith always issues in works.

                    Acts 9_12 Out's primary perspective is on the quality rather than on the sufficiency of faith, but one of his statements shows clearly that he understands that salvation is through faith, not through works, but he is stressing that the quality of faith by which men have access to God is a faith which works.

                    I don't believe they really disagree. They are, I think, just viewing the same truth from different angles. I believe that before this battle is over they will understand that they are warriors belonging to the same camp.
                    So you think they are "talking past each other"?

                    I've had this very same suspicion about the RCC. My ilk tends to lambast the RCC as teaching a works based salvation, whereas I have pressed catholics on this point. Often the rhetoric they use is not unlike my own, that being an acknowledgement that true saving faith will produce good works.
                    That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.
                    Philippians 2:15

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Yeah, Lightson. I also had a conversation with a RCC priest and came to the same conclusion. Too often we get involved in stressing the point which is most interesting to us and in that process, talk past.
                      BUT Acts 9-12out has some very different theology concerning the Old Testament era, I think. His OT soteriology sounds strange to me and I would not right now be willing to say that he does not believe that obedience to the law is the MEANS, at least to some extent, in securing salvation during the OT era. Maybe his rhetoric just gives that impression. Why can't people just say either that (1) true faith secures salvation and true faith will also result in works out of love or else say, (2) works is the means of salvation. Men now (or then) earned salvation by their works. I believe acts9-12out believes #1 about the New Testament period, but I can't determine yet whether he believes that about the OT period. Jerry is quite plain with his meanings, but acts is not as straightforward with his wording.
                      "For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen" Romans 11:36

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Jeremy's round 3 post is .

                        AWESOME STUFF!!!
                        Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
                        TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

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                        • #57
                          same views but from a different angle...

                          Rolf – You said
                          Acts 9_12 Out's primary perspective is on the quality rather than on the sufficiency of faith, but one of his statements shows clearly that he understands that salvation is through faith, not through works, but he is stressing that the quality of faith by which men have access to God is a faith which works.
                          Your talking quality verses sufficiency and Jeremy is saying that it used to be that you could be saved and then loose your salvation by not continuing to keep the law, works were required for salvation, but today they are forbidden for salvation. Jerry is saying that works were never required for salvation. Can’t you see that? Loosing your salvation is a very suffiency focus, or is loosing your salvation not a sufficient concern?

                          I think you still do not understood what Jeremy is saying. But he's not talking past you, many (or at least us mid Acts folk) understand him just fine, but it seems you and LightSon have a problem understanding this debate.
                          Last edited by 1Way; March 31st, 2004, 02:56 PM.
                          Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Knight

                            Jeremy's round 3 post is .

                            AWESOME STUFF!!!
                            I've read it twice and I'm still baffled about your comment.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Freak

                              Silly boy, those passages speaks of Jesus and his teaching on the subject. He calls us to forgive freely...

                              Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.

                              Imagine that.
                              Freak, you do realize that Paul teaches contrary to this right? According to your scripture (which you never site BTW, how do you expect new Christians to grow if you don't even tell them where you're reading from? Since you won't do it, I'll do it for you. The verse in question is Mark 11:25.) you MUST forgive in order to be forgiven. Matthew speaks of the same thing,

                              Matthew 6:14-15
                              14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
                              15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


                              but according to Paul...

                              Ephesians 4
                              32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ forgave us.


                              Colossians 3
                              13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.


                              ...you should forgive because you are already forgiven. You'll be a dispensationalist before you know it! But then again, you do have to have a decent understanding of the scriptures first....

                              p.s. Isn't "forgiving" a work freak? It seems as if you must do that work to be forgiven under the gospel of the circumcision.
                              "Ignorance sustained by denial is crippling this nation's response to abortion. When something is so horrifying that we can't stand to look at it, perhaps we shouldn't be tolerating it." -Gregg Cunningham (Center for Bio-Ethical Reform)

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Freak

                                I've read it twice and I'm still baffled about your comment.
                                You resort to putting it down without even showing why. I don't believe you...
                                "Ignorance sustained by denial is crippling this nation's response to abortion. When something is so horrifying that we can't stand to look at it, perhaps we shouldn't be tolerating it." -Gregg Cunningham (Center for Bio-Ethical Reform)

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