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  • #31
    Selective quotation is dishonest in a Christian debate. "Technically correct" does not fly amongst those who are to be above reproach.

    Here is the link:

    http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulle...&goto=lastpost

    And if anyone cares enough to look (and I don't think anyone is), check out how Jerry claims apostolic authority to change the Bible to make it say that I hate God.

    Comment


    • #32
      And here I detail and am prepared to defend the comment that I made about the "blasphemous implications" of what Jerry believes.

      http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulle...113#post109113

      And I reiterate again, I am not calling Jerry intentionally blasphemous. I would not do that. He is a believer, and I believe that he is sincere. I certainly was sincere when I was a dispensationalist and a futurist.

      Comment


      • #33
        Zec:12:8: In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
        Zec:12:9: And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
        Zec:12:10: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


        Jerry:Are you saying that this verse refers to the heavenly Jerusalem?

        And you seem to be saying that the "nations" who came against Jerusalem were Jews.Is that what you are saying?

        If you will read the previous verse,you can see that "in that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem."

        Do you think that this refers to the heavenly Jerusalem?
        Yes Jer, it is quite clear, don't ya think?

        "...and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David;"

        What of David, he was strong in the Lord, he searched out for God, he was repentant, he knew his strength came from God, he was a king.

        All these we know we have in Christ Jesus.

        "; and the house of David shall be as God"

        The house of David shall be as God. According to your interpretation you would have something here on earth being as God. But we know the house of David is the BODY of Christ Jesus, who is GOD!

        The name "Christian" actually means "Of the house of Christ" So since we know Jesus is God and He is the root and offspring of David we can see the house of David being God. We shall be as David and live in our(David's) HOUSE JESUS. Where else did David live?

        "And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem."

        Heb:12:22: But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,


        Well Jerry, what saith the Lord? Are we come to heavenly Jerusalem or shall we still wait?

        I think it is QUITE OBVIOUS the Scripture says "Ye ARE come to the city of the living God, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM"

        But you would have God STILL defending the UNBELIEVING Jew while citizens of the heavenaly Jerusalem are defeated by their foes. The unbelievers, whether a Jew or Muslim or Russian have no part in the heveanly Jerusalem.


        "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace "

        But you have God's Spirit being poured on unbelievers. Why?


        "and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

        They shall look upon Jesus who they have peirced.

        You say this is yet FUTURE but even the Scripture says it is FULFILLED:

        Joh:19:36: For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
        Joh:19:37: And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

        But the only people that mourn His death and rejoice in His being raised from the dead and alive forevermore are CHRISTIANS not the Jews.

        Besides, the Jews did not pierce Jesus but it was a Gentile. Think of that for a moment. Where does the Scriptures EVER say the Jews PIERCED Jesus? No WHERE.

        Like I said, keep your affection on the things from above.
        Last edited by Revelation717; September 15th, 2002, 05:17 PM.
        Oh man, would ya look at this...we got alot of work to do!

        Comment


        • #34
          According to Dee Dee,the parable of the"tares and wheat" is only about the "purging of the apostate Old Covenant people of God",the Jews.

          But there is no indication in that parable that the purging only includes the Jews.According to the Lord Jesus,the "field is the world"(Mt.13:38).

          "The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man who sowed good seed in his field;But,while the man slept,his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat"(Mt.13:24,25).

          Since the gospel will be reached "in all the world"(Mt.24:14),then we can only conclude that the tares will be sown in the whole world also--"his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat".

          So there are tares and wheat in the whole Roman Empire,and not just in Israel.Next,we see that the tares and the wheat are gathered together:

          "Let both grow together until the harvest;and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers,Gather together first the tares,and bind them in bundles to burn them,but gather the wheat into my barn"(Mt.13:30).

          Notice the Lord did NOT say to the reapers,"Gather together SOME OF THE TARES",but instead said,"Gather together first the tares..."

          The Lord is saying that all the "unrighteous" will be gathered out of the kingdom at the end of the age.Not just some of them,as Dee Dee would have you believe.

          And all of the "tares" were not gathered out of the Roman Empire in AD70.So the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 does not refer to the "end of the age",because the events at the end of the age will come about just as the Lord Jesus said they will:

          "As,therefore,the tares are gathered and burned in the fire,so shall it be at the end of the age.The Son of Man shall send forth His angels,and they shall gather out of the kingdom ALL THINGS THAT OFFEND,and them who doeth iniquity,and shall cast them into a furnace of fire"(Mt.13:40-42).

          The Lord´s words are plain.His angels will cast out of the kingdom ALL THINGS THAT OFFEND,and not just some of the things that offend,as Dee Dee would have you believe.

          And that did not happen when Jerusalem was defeated in AD70!

          In His grace,--Jerry

          Comment


          • #35
            Dee Dee says that my teaching that there is a "gap" in the prophecy concerning Daniel´s 70 Weeks has blasphemous implications.

            That means that many of the early church fathers were also teaching things that have blasphemous implications.

            On the PreteristArchive.com we see the following words:

            "Irenaeus,Bishop of Lyon,companion of Polycarp,John´s pupil..."

            Irenaeus,who was a companion of Polycarp (who studied at the feet of the Apostle John) also saw a gap in Daniel´s 70 weeks.He did not believe that the antichrist had appeared on earth.And can anyone but Dee Dee think that he might have beem misinformed?

            I am of the opinion that both Polycarp and Irenaeus were serious students of the Scriptures.And I find it inconceivable that Irenaeus would be misinformed about whether or not the antichrist appeared on earth in AD70.After all,who better to inform him of the truth than someone who had studied under John.

            Dee Dee wants us to believe that those living less than a hundred years after AD70 were wrong when they said that the antichrist did not come then.They are wrong,but Dee Dee is right.

            In His grace,--Jerry

            Comment


            • #36
              Why does it have blasphemous implications?

              Comment


              • #37
                Dear Cirisme:

                I answered that question on your dispensationalism thread.

                Comment


                • #38
                  And I will continue my answer to Jerry where my original answer was posted.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Dee Dee won time, times and half a time over.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Even rapt said that he was sorry for saying that I misrepresented what I was saying.He saw the truth.My words were plain,and the facts are clear.I never misrepresented anything.
                      Sorry, I apologized prematurely. That was before I saw you saying that Thayer AGREES WITH YOU, which he most certainly DOES NOT. Certainly you saw my withdrawal, but now you are twisting my words too! How can you call yourself "honest" when you KNOW THIS?

                      ________________


                      "And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem."


                      Speaking to GENTILE believers, Paul said:

                      Romans 16:20
                      And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

                      2Thes 1:4
                      So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

                      5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

                      6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

                      7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

                      8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

                      9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


                      10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


                      Gal 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

                      8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

                      9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

                      10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

                      11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

                      12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
                      (See Dan 9:25 for a scriptural definition of what "cut off" means!)



                      Now we know that Paul was refering in the above scriptures to the JUDAIZERS, who seduced the church with ANOTHER GOSPEL (one perverted with judaism).

                      God indeed fought against the Jewish persecuters of the Church! They CLAIMED to be Jews, but they were not. They were of the synogogue of satan! (Rev 2:9; 3:9) Jesus Himself SAID they were of their father the devil, and that they would do his lusts: liars who would kill the prophets and those God would send them, and they DID JUST THAT.

                      God justly recompensed judgment upon them in the same generation. Disps discount that judgment just as if it NEVER HAPPENED. They DENY the fulfillment of Dan 9 just as they do most all the other prophecies of the end of Judaism and the law and the Old Covenant. They think it's still in effect on the Jew today! How ELSE could they suppose a rebuilt temple could still be called "the temple of God"? They must DENY that Christ DID AWAY with that entire system so they can suppose that it won't be done away until the end of the 70 weeks, which they say were never fulfilled.

                      Disps deny, deny, deny, and ignore every scriptural proof that they are just as much unbelievers in the fulfillment of God's Word as the unbelieving Jews are. They profess to know God, but deny His Word, and make it of none effect. They have closed their ears to the truth.


                      If Daniel 9 isn't fulfilled, then Daniel is a liar and Jesus isn't the Messiah. You can't have it both ways!! Either Daniel was a false prophet, and Jesus is an imposter, or else the seventy weeks are already fulfilled, Jesus was who confirmed THE covenant (which was obviously the New Covenant of forgiveness of sins and reconcilliation for iniquity spoken of in Dan 9:24), caused the animal sacrifices to cease, brought judgment upon the blasphemous and murderous Jews of His day by the use of Rome in 70AD, even as He Himself said would happen, destroyed the temple and the city, and there won't come some future individual 'antichrist' to do any of those things!

                      If the latter is the case (and I firmly believe it IS), then futurism is ANOTHER GOSPEL, and a big fat blasphemous lie that places an antichrist in the place of Christ!
                      Last edited by rapt; September 15th, 2002, 06:49 PM.



                      Revelation 22
                      14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

                      15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Daniel 9 never once even mentions any "antichrist" other than the abominable Jews who murdered Christ! Jesus never mentioned any antichrist but the Jews and those false teachers would come, and who DID come, and were already at work when Paul wrote 2Thes 2. Paul warned that many would rise even of the church members, who would speak perverse things to gain followers for themselves in Acts 20. John said even NOW there are many antichrists, and that's how he determined that it was "the last time" IN THE FIRST CENTURY, but disps imagine it to be now, and NOT then.



                        Revelation 22
                        14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

                        15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Paul said the "man of sin" would "sit" in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God". What was Paul's definiton of the "temple of God" but the CHURCH?? He wasn't talking about some FUTURE JEWISH TEMPLE at all! He defined the temple of God in 1Cor 3 and chapter 6! "Know ye not that YE are the temple of God?" he asked the gentile Christians?

                          So what else could he have been saying other than the man of sin would establish his doctrine in the CHURCH? Paul called the church "one new MAN", refering to all the redeemed, both of the Jews AND of the Gentiles, didn't he? So couldn't he also have been refering to a GROUP in 2Thes 2:3,4, just as he had when calling the CHURCH a "man"?

                          There has never been one man who fulfilled the prophecy of the man of sin, but we've certainly seen a lot of speculation, haven't we? The reformers realized correctly that Paul wasn't refering to ONE MAN, didn't they? They saw the fulfillment of the man of sin in the papacy, but failed to see that they could also be guilty of being part of that group by taking up the same heresies, and doing the same abominations Rome had, like KILLING BELIEVERS for not believing like they did. But the Reformers DID do like Rome, so they were partakers of her sins, even while outwardly appearing to seperate from her! They, just like the popes, exalted their OWN doctrines to the place of God in the church, and PERSECUTED all who disagreed with them, as we see from Luther, Calvin, and the other reformers.

                          Hence the "man of sin" is not one man, but consists of MANY ANTICHRISTS.



                          Revelation 22
                          14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

                          15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            My response to Jerry's points again are found here and here

                            http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulle...&threadid=3272


                            http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulle...p?s=&forumid=4

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Attributing Daniel 9:27 to antichrist (or anyone other than Jesus Christ) is not only blasphemous but is of the same spirit of antichrist, mentioned in 1st and 2nd John, to whom the futurists credit the passage to and it's marvelous work, even the work of the cross.

                              How disgusting.


                              Jerry the following passage found in Zech. 12, FUTURE of FULFILLED???????

                              "and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."


                              You need to say fulfilled don't you, because you have argued quite weakly that the verse DIRECTLY before it (v. 9) is YET TO COME.

                              But what does the Scripture say about Zech. 12:10?????

                              Joh:19:36: For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
                              Joh:19:37: And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.


                              Jerry your whole theory is a botch up blasphemous pile of dung and should be treated as such.

                              Though Scripture verify Scripture and God sends His messengers before you, you will continue to follow that which is vain and forsake the mercy offered you in order to covet vanity and fables.


                              Last edited by Revelation717; September 16th, 2002, 10:14 AM.
                              Oh man, would ya look at this...we got alot of work to do!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Dee Dee is offering up a SOLID SMACK DOWN on this thread. Score is, as of now:

                                Dee Dee - 6

                                Jerry - 2 (and we know 1 is his, the other is his mother's! LOL)
                                Oh man, would ya look at this...we got alot of work to do!

                                Comment

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