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  • #91
    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I believe that the present dispensation began when Paul started preaching the gospel of grace. Here are three quotes from him where he speaks of a "dispensation" that has been committed or given to him:

    "If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you"
    (Eph. 3:2).

    "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).

    "...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me"
    (1 Cor.9:17).

    The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace", a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:

    "But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God"
    (Acts 20: 24).

    I believe that Paul first began to preach the gospel of grace when he began preaching a gospel to the Gentiles at Acts 13:46-48.

    The Bibical dispensation is a "stewardship" and all those who have been given a stewardship have a responsibility under that stewardship. What stewardship responsibility was exercised when you say that the present stewardship had its beginning?
    Honest question....

    You believe that the body of Christ began in Acts 7, but the teacher/preacher of the gospel of the grace of God didn't begin teaching/preaching ITS doctrine until Acts 13?

    How does that work? A secret body of Christ for 10-20 years?
    All of my ancestors are human.
    Originally posted by Squeaky
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Originally posted by God's Truth
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
      Honest question....

      You believe that the body of Christ began in Acts 7, but the teacher/preacher of the gospel of the grace of God didn't begin teaching/preaching ITS doctrine until Acts 13?

      How does that work? A secret body of Christ for 10-20 years?
      Shortly after Israel was temporarily set aside and the Jewish believers were made members of the Body of Christ Paul was converted on the Damascus road and was given two different ministeries, one to the Jews and the other to the Gentiles (Acts 9:15). Paul began with his ministry to the Jews almost immediately (Acts 9:20-23) but it was sometime later that he received the gospel which he preached to the Gentiles, as witnessed by his following words:

      "But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus" (Gal.1:15-17).

      When Paul received a gospel from the Lord Jesus on the Damascus road he immediately went to Damascus (Acts 9:6-8). But when he received the gospel which he preached among the Gentiles he went immediately into Arabia. Then as early as the time he wrote his first epistle to the church at Cornith we see that epistle was not only addressed to all the believers in Cornith but also to all the believers everywhere who call on the name of Jesus Christ:

      "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours" (1 Cor.1:2).

      So we can understand that the following words were addressed to all the believers living at the time this epistle was written which would include not only the Gentile believers but also the Jewish believers (including the Twelve):

      "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"
      (1 Cor.12:13).

      Therefore, according to the Apostle Paul, not only were the Gentile believers made members of the Body of Christ but also the Jewish believers who called on the name of the Lord Jesus. Therefore, the Twelve were also members of the Body of Christ. Cornelius Stam, the founder of the Berean Bible Society, wrote the following commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:2:

      "There are other evidences that the kingdom saints of Paul's day became members of the Body of Christ. In I Corinthians 1:2, Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church, 'with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs [those in every place] and ours [those with Paul].' And he says to 'all' these believers 'in every place': 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles' (I Cor. 12:13). How can this be made to exclude the Judean believers?"
      (Cornelius Stam, Commentary on Galatians [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1998], 198).

      You asked about the timing of the revealing of the truth by Paul in regard to the Body of Christ and I say that the LORD Himself was responsible for when it would be revealed and who am I to question when He decided to have that truth revealed?

      All I know that when it was revealed all of the believers in every place were members of the Body of Christ so therefore the Twelve are members of the Body of Christ.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
        Shortly after Israel was temporarily set aside and the Jewish believers were made members of the Body of Christ Paul was converted on the Damascus road and was given two different ministeries, one to the Jews and the other to the Gentiles (Acts 9:15).
        Acts 9:15 does NOT say that Paul was given TWO DIFFERENT ministries. You made that up.

        Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
        Paul began with his ministry to the Jews almost immediately (Acts 9:20-23) but it was sometime later that he received the gospel which he preached to the Gentiles, as witnessed by his following words:

        "But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus" (Gal.1:15-17).
        Once again says nothing of two different ministries. You are forcing your ideas into the text without warrant.

        Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
        When Paul received a gospel from the Lord Jesus on the Damascus road he immediately went to Damascus (Acts 9:6-8).
        They LED Paul to Damascus because he could see. Paul was blind for three days.

        Act 9:8 KJV And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

        Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
        But when he received the gospel which he preached among the Gentiles he went immediately into Arabia. Then as early as the time he wrote his first epistle to the church at Cornith we see that epistle was not only addressed to all the believers in Cornith but also to all the believers everywhere who call on the name of Jesus Christ:

        "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours" (1 Cor.1:2).
        You continue for attempt to force your story on the scripture.

        Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
        So we can understand that the following words were addressed to all the believers living at the time this epistle was written which would include not only the Gentile believers but also the Jewish believers (including the Twelve):

        "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"
        (1 Cor.12:13).
        So according you, God changed the calling of the twelve from their prophetic program for the twelve tribes of Israel and MOVED THEM into the body of Christ.

        But we know from scripture that God does NOT change a mans calling. 1 Cor 7:17-24.

        Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
        Therefore, according to the Apostle Paul, not only were the Gentile believers made members of the Body of Christ but also the Jewish believers who called on the name of the Lord Jesus. Therefore, the Twelve were also members of the Body of Christ. Cornelius Stam, the founder of the Berean Bible Society, wrote the following commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:2:

        "There are other evidences that the kingdom saints of Paul's day became members of the Body of Christ. In I Corinthians 1:2, Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church, 'with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs [those in every place] and ours [those with Paul].' And he says to 'all' these believers 'in every place': 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles' (I Cor. 12:13). How can this be made to exclude the Judean believers?"
        (Cornelius Stam, Commentary on Galatians [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1998], 198).

        You asked about the timing of the revealing of the truth by Paul in regard to the Body of Christ and I say that the LORD Himself was responsible for when it would be revealed and who am I to question when He decided to have that truth revealed?

        All I know that when it was revealed all of the believers in every place were members of the Body of Christ so therefore the Twelve are members of the Body of Christ.
        Don't question God, question yourself.
        All of my ancestors are human.
        Originally posted by Squeaky
        That explains why your an idiot.
        Originally posted by God's Truth
        Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
        Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
        (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

        1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
        (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

        Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
          Acts 9:15 does NOT say that Paul was given TWO DIFFERENT ministries. You made that up.
          If you are right then we must believe that Paul preach the same gospel to the Jews at Acts 9 that he preached to the Gentiles? Is that your argument?

          Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
          They LED Paul to Damascus because he could see. Paul was blind for three days.
          No one said otherwise but nothing you said answered what I said about the following words of Paul:

          "But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus"
          (Gal.1:15-17).

          When Paul received a gospel from the Lord Jesus on the Damascus road he immediately went to Damascus (Acts 9:6-8). But when he received the gospel which he preached among the Gentiles he went immediately into Arabia.

          That can only mean that the gospel which he preached to the Jews in the synagogues was not the same gospel which he preached to Gentiles because he didn't receive that gospel from the Lord Jesus until AFTER he had been preaching to the Jews in the synagogues. Here is what he preached in the synagogues:

          "And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is very Christ"
          (Acts 9:20,22).
          "Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ" (Acts 17:1-3).

          Paul was preaching the same gospel to the Jews which the Twelve preached to the Jews:

          "And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more"
          (Acts 20:25).

          "Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick...And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where"
          (Lk.9:1-2,6).

          Are you saying that the "gospel" mentioned in this passage is the same gospel which Paul preached to the Gentiles?

          Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
          You continue for attempt to force your story on the scripture.
          You say that but you do not even attempt to prove that I forced anything. Besides Cornelius Stam there are many people who share my belief that Paul's first epistle to the church at Corinth was addressed to all believers at the time he wrote that epistle and that would have to include the Twelve. Matthew Henry wrote:

          "In conjunction with the church at Corinth, he directs the epistle 'to all that in every place call on the name of Christ Jesus our Lord, both theirs and ours'" (Matthew Henry, Commentary at 1 Corinthians 1:2).

          John Nelson Darby understood the verse in the same way, writing the following:

          "He addresses the assembly of God at Corinth, adding a character (the application of which is evident when we consider the contents of the epistle) 'sanctified in Christ Jesus.' Afterwards the universality of the application of the doctrine and instructions of the epistle, and of its authority over all Christians, wherever they might be, is brought forward in this address" (John Nelson Darby, Commentary at 1 Corinthians 1:2).

          A.R. Fausset comments on the verse matches the commentary of both Stam and Darby:
          "with all that in every place call upon . . . Christ--The Epistle is intended for these also, as well as for the Corinthians. The true CATHOLIC CHURCH (a term first used by IGNATIUS [Epistle to the Smyraeans, 8]): not consisting of those who call themselves from Paul, Cephas, or any other eminent leader ( 1Cr 1:12 ), but of all, wherever they be, who call on Jesus as their Saviour in sincerity (compare 2Ti 2:22). Still a general unity of discipline and doctrine in the several churches is implied in 1Cr 4:17 7:17 11:16 14:33, 36" (A. R. Fausset, Jamieson, Fausset & Brown; Commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:2).

          Can you quote anyone who says that the epistle was written to all those who call on the name of the Lord Jesus EXCEPT the Twelve?

          Therefore, a correct understanding of what Paul wrote in his opening words found in 1 Corinthians reveal that Paul's following words were addressed to all the believers living at the time this epistle was written, which would include not only the Gentile believers but also the Jewish believers (including the Twelve):

          "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

          Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
          So according you, God changed the calling of the twelve from their prophetic program for the twelve tribes of Israel and MOVED THEM into the body of Christ.

          But we know from scripture that God does NOT change a mans calling. 1 Cor 7:17-24.
          At 1 Corinthians 7:17-24 when Paul speaks of a believer's "calling" he is no referring to the fact
          that those who are "circumcised" must keep the calling which the "nation" of Israel was originally given. Instead, he is saying that circumcision was a matter of small importance compared with keeping God's commandments. Then he says that a believer's vocational situation is also a matter of little consequence because both the freeman and the servant are both the servants of the Lord Jesus.

          Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
          Don't question God, question yourself.
          It's you who questions God because you say that those who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works despite what the Savior Himself told the Jews who lived under the law:
          "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).

          Even though the Lord Jesus told the Jews who lived under the law that those who "believe" on Him have everlasting life you question His words because you say that "faith" alone was not enough for those people.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
            If you are right then we must believe that Paul preach the same gospel to the Jews at Acts 9 that he preached to the Gentiles? Is that your argument?
            No, my argument is that Paul preached the ALL THE COUNSEL of God.

            Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
            No one said otherwise but nothing you said answered what I said about the following words of Paul:

            "But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus"
            (Gal.1:15-17).

            When Paul received a gospel from the Lord Jesus on the Damascus road he immediately went to Damascus (Acts 9:6-8). But when he received the gospel which he preached among the Gentiles he went immediately into Arabia.
            Please demonstrate FROM scripture that Paul "received a gospel from Lord Jesus on the Damascus road".

            Once again, you are forcing your story on the scripture. You are reading INTO IT things that are just not there.

            Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
            That can only mean that the gospel which he preached to the Jews in the synagogues was not the same gospel which he preached to Gentiles because he didn't receive that gospel from the Lord Jesus until AFTER he had been preaching to the Jews in the synagogues. Here is what he preached in the synagogues:

            "And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is very Christ"
            (Acts 9:20,22).
            "Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ" (Acts 17:1-3).

            Paul was preaching the same gospel to the Jews which the Twelve preached to the Jews:
            Please be aware of the simple fact that Paul could not possibly preach the gospel of the grace of God to the Jews there unless they agreed on who the Christ was to start with. If Paul could not get past that with THEM, there was no way to proceed on to ALL THE COUNSEL of God.

            Who the Christ was and is was a stumbling block to the unbelieving Jews.

            P.S. I like much of Stam... but his "12 in" is wrong in my opinion. So you can quit quoting him as I don't care what he thinks on this topic.
            All of my ancestors are human.
            Originally posted by Squeaky
            That explains why your an idiot.
            Originally posted by God's Truth
            Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
            Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
            (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

            1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
            (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

            Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
              You say that but you do not even attempt to prove that I forced anything. Besides Cornelius Stam there are many people who share my belief that Paul's first epistle to the church at Corinth was addressed to all believers at the time he wrote that epistle and that would have to include the Twelve. Matthew Henry wrote:

              "In conjunction with the church at Corinth, he directs the epistle 'to all that in every place call on the name of Christ Jesus our Lord, both theirs and ours'" (Matthew Henry, Commentary at 1 Corinthians 1:2).

              John Nelson Darby understood the verse in the same way, writing the following:

              "He addresses the assembly of God at Corinth, adding a character (the application of which is evident when we consider the contents of the epistle) 'sanctified in Christ Jesus.' Afterwards the universality of the application of the doctrine and instructions of the epistle, and of its authority over all Christians, wherever they might be, is brought forward in this address" (John Nelson Darby, Commentary at 1 Corinthians 1:2).

              A.R. Fausset comments on the verse matches the commentary of both Stam and Darby:
              "with all that in every place call upon . . . Christ--The Epistle is intended for these also, as well as for the Corinthians. The true CATHOLIC CHURCH (a term first used by IGNATIUS [Epistle to the Smyraeans, 8]): not consisting of those who call themselves from Paul, Cephas, or any other eminent leader ( 1Cr 1:12 ), but of all, wherever they be, who call on Jesus as their Saviour in sincerity (compare 2Ti 2:22). Still a general unity of discipline and doctrine in the several churches is implied in 1Cr 4:17 7:17 11:16 14:33, 36" (A. R. Fausset, Jamieson, Fausset & Brown; Commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:2).
              vs. Jer, over, and over again, on TOL, cries...
              Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
              Once again, you prove that you believe what men write, not the bible.

              This is why most on TOL members do not take Jer very seriously, and let him play in his playground. He is a great actor, however.
              Saint John W

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
                Please demonstrate FROM scripture that Paul "received a gospel from Lord Jesus on the Damascus road".

                Once again, you are forcing your story on the scripture. You are reading INTO IT things that are just not there.
                Was not Paul preaching the "gospel" or "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, in Damascus after His encounter with the Lord Jesus at Damascus (Acts 9:20,22,27)?

                Of course he was and the Jews who believed that message were born again upon believing that gospel (1 Jn.5:1-5; Jn.20:30-31).

                That gospel couldn't possibly be the same one which he preached to the Gentiles because after learning that gospel from the Lord Jesus he went immediately into Arabia:

                "But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus"
                (Gal.1:15-17).

                Paul hadn't yet been to Arabia at the time he was preaching a gospel in the synagogues in Damascus. Therefore, we can understand that he didn't receive the gospel he preached to the Gentiles until after he had preached a gospel in Damascus. And in the book of Romans Paul speaks of two different gospels which he preached. One gospel was according to what the OT prophets revealed and the other was kept secret:

                "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Ro.1:1-3).

                That gospel which was promised by the OT prophets couldn't possibly be the following gospel that Paul refers to here:
                "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began" (Ro.16:25).

                Since the gospel which Paul makes reference to here was kept secret since the world began then it couldn't possibly be the same gospel of which the OT prophets promised.

                Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
                You continue for attempt to force your story on the scripture.
                Since you say that I am wrong when I say that 1 Corinthians was addressed to not only the believers at the church at Corinth but unto all the believers living at the time when he wrote the following words then tell us why the Twelve should be excluded from the words in "bold":

                "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours"
                (1 Cor.1:2).

                I see nothing in these bolded words which even hints that any Jewish believers were not included. But you think otherwise. So since you know that I am wrong please give us your interpretation of the meaning of Paul's words in this verse.

                And if it me who attempts to force my views on the Scriptures then tell me why I am in error by asserting that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith and faith alone since that is what the Lord Jesus told the Jews who lived under the law:

                "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life"
                (Jn.6:47).

                Please tell me why I shouldn't believe that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by believing and nothing more with these words of the Savior in view?

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                  Was not Paul preaching the "gospel" or "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, in Damascus after His encounter with the Lord Jesus at Damascus (Acts 9:20,22,27)?
                  Indeed he was. This gospel was already widely known.

                  AGAIN I ASK: Please demonstrate FROM scripture that Paul "received a gospel from Lord Jesus on the Damascus road".

                  I will not read the rest of your post until you address that.
                  All of my ancestors are human.
                  Originally posted by Squeaky
                  That explains why your an idiot.
                  Originally posted by God's Truth
                  Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                  Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                  (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                  1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                  (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                  Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
                    AGAIN I ASK: Please demonstrate FROM scripture that Paul "received a gospel from Lord Jesus on the Damascus road".
                    The word "gospel" means "good news." Before Paul was converted on the Damascus road He did not believe the truth which had previously been revealed, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. But listen to his words after his encounter with the Lord Jesus on the Damascus road:

                    "And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. And I said, What shall I do, Lord?"
                    (Acts 22:7-10).

                    Of course after that encounter Paul knew for certain that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. So at the moment when he realized that fact he had received the "gospel" or "good news" that Jesus is indeed the Christ, the Son of God.

                    That gospel is the one which He preached to the Jews and that gospel was was according to what the OT prophets revealed, the gospel which promised Israel a coming Savior:

                    "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Ro.1:1-3).

                    That gospel which was promised by the OT prophets couldn't possibly be the following gospel that Paul refers to here:

                    "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began"
                    (Ro.16:25).

                    A gospel which was promised by the OT prophets cannot be the same gospel which had been kept secret since the world began. But to you they are one and the same gospel.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                      A gospel which was promised by the OT prophets cannot be the same gospel which had been kept secret since the world began. But to you they are one and the same gospel.
                      That is a LIE and you KNOW it! I will no longer converse is a HABITUAL LIAR!

                      I have CLEARLY and UNAMBIGUOUSLY declared that these are NOT THE SAME GOSPEL.... MANY, MANY, MANY TIMES.

                      You are DISHONEST and a LIAR.
                      All of my ancestors are human.
                      Originally posted by Squeaky
                      That explains why your an idiot.
                      Originally posted by God's Truth
                      Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                      Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                      (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                      1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                      (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                      Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
                        That is a LIE and you KNOW it! I will no longer converse is a HABITUAL LIAR!

                        I have CLEARLY and UNAMBIGUOUSLY declared that these are NOT THE SAME GOSPEL.... MANY, MANY, MANY TIMES.

                        You are DISHONEST and a LIAR.
                        According to what you said earlier I could only understand that you were saying that the gospel he preached at the beginning of his ministry to the Jews is the same gospel which he preached in his ministry to the Gentiles.

                        When did he preach the gospel which had been foretold by the prophets?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                          I believe that the present dispensation began when Paul started preaching the gospel of grace. Here are three quotes from him where he speaks of a "dispensation" that has been committed or given to him:

                          "If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you"
                          (Eph. 3:2).

                          "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).

                          "...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me"
                          (1 Cor.9:17).

                          The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace", a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:

                          "But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God"
                          (Acts 20: 24).

                          I believe that Paul first began to preach the gospel of grace when he began preaching a gospel to the Gentiles at Acts 13:46-48.

                          The Bibical dispensation is a "stewardship" and all those who have been given a stewardship have a responsibility under that stewardship. What stewardship responsibility was exercised when you say that the present stewardship had its beginning?
                          Did Sir Robert Anderson believe your MAD?
                          "Prove all things. Hold fast that which is true."

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by binyamin7 View Post
                            Did Sir Robert Anderson believe your MAD?
                            I am not aware of any place where he specifically stated when it started but he did write the following:
                            "Who can fail to mark the contrast between the earlier and the later chapters of the Acts of the Apostles? Measured by years the period they embrace is comparatively brief; but morally the latter portion of the narrative seems to belong to a different age. And such is in fact the case. A new dispensation has begun, and the Book of the Acts covers historically the period of the transition" (Sir Robert Anderson, The Silence of God [Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Publications, 1978], 45).

                            An examination of the book of Acts reveals that it was at Acts 13 when Paul began to preach the "gospel of grace" to the Gentiles so that would be what Anderson was speaking about when he said that "the latter portion of the narrative seems to belong to a different age."

                            John Nelson Darby, considered by many to be the father of modern dispensationalism, taught that the present dispensation began after Acts 2:

                            "Reference to the second chapter of Galatians will confirm and establish the point historically as to the present dispensation, where not only is the fact stated of Paul having the ministry of the Gentiles, as Peter of the circumcision; but it was actually agreed on their conference, consequent upon the grace given, that Paul and Barnabas should go to the uncircumcision; and James, and Cephas, and John should go to the circumcision. And so far was the apostle's mind under Judaising influence, that it required a positive fresh revelation to induce him to go into company with a Gentile at all, and even after this he would not eat when certain came from James. In fact the Gentile dispensation, as a distinct thing, took its rise on the death of Stephen, the witness that the Jews resisted the Holy Ghost: as their fathers did, so did they" (John Nelson Darby, The Apostasy Of The Successive Dispensations).

                            Although Darby taught that the Body of Christ began at Acts 2 he also recognized that the present dispensation did not start until later. I think that it was at Acts 7 when the nation of Israel was temporaily set aside as the LORD's agent upon the earth and that marks the beginning of the Body of Christ.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                              I think that it was at Acts 7 when the nation of Israel was temporaily set aside as the LORD's agent upon the earth and that marks the beginning of the Body of Christ.

                              Peter and the guys were in the "body of Christ" but didn't know about it. That's funny stuff there.
                              All of my ancestors are human.
                              Originally posted by Squeaky
                              That explains why your an idiot.
                              Originally posted by God's Truth
                              Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                              Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                              (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                              1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                              (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                              Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
                                Peter and the guys were in the "body of Christ" but didn't know about it. That's funny stuff there.
                                Peter and the guys were being saved by the fact that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" but they didn't know it at the time.

                                Of course you deny that Peter was saved by grace through faith because you believe that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works despite what Paul wrote here:
                                "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).

                                According to your teaching the believing Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works despite the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:
                                "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).

                                "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).

                                "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:25-26).

                                Now let us look at what is written here:

                                "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"
                                (Jn.3:16).

                                The word "whosoever" in this verse must include not only the Gentile believers as well as the Jews who lived under the law. So all people who believe in the Lord Jesus has in their possession everlasting life and they shall never perish.

                                Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
                                That's funny stuff there.
                                I woudn't want to be in your shoes when you stand before the Lord Jesus and am confronted with the fact that you refused to believe His words. You won't think it is funny then.

                                Comment

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