About who does Isaiah 53 speak?
- Thread starter Elia
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Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
The problem is that the other forum is for Christians only:
"Exclusively Christian Theology (17 Viewing)
This forum is exclusively for those who consider themselves Christian and consider the Bible to be the inspired word of God."
Eliyahu
I'm posting to let you know that I'm not ignoring your thread.
It's just that you already know who I believe it is and I already know who you believe it is.
Peace
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
But you as a Christian have an obligation to point out to me why I am wrong, and why you are right, and make a good upright Christian out of me.
So go ahead and give me all your arguments and proofs as to why Isaiah 53 speaks about JC.
Eliyahu
Dena
New member
It is absolutely impossible for me to make you a good 'and' upright Christian, to make you a good 'or' upright Christian, or to make you a Christian at all.
I would hope and pray that you would come to the knowledge of Israel's promise Messiah, but that's between you and Him.
I may discuss Is 53 with you at some point, but not at the moment.
genuineoriginal
New member
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
Thank you, at last something I can sink my teeth into.
The vast majority of that text is devoted to saying: "The rabbis say that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah!"
That's a kind of weird, that a Christian bases his religion on the opinion of the rabbis.
And of course, practically all rabbis believe that Isaiah 53 speaks about the people of Israel.
There may have been some dissenting opinions, but they of course do not change the facts.
Just like the fact that there are Christian ministers who admit that Isaiah 53 speaks about Israel, some rabbis saying it speaks about the messiah doesn't change the facts.
Read here more about those rabbis and Isaiah 53: http://mountzion.freewebpage.org/Is53.html
The rest of the argument there is saying why the suffering servant cannot be Israel. Here is the first argument:
"Why Isaiah 53 cannot refer to the nation of Israel, or anyone else, but must be the Messiah"
"1. The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation: "Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters!" He then goes on in the same chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and 21). What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah 53 who had "done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!""
Hmm.... I've never seen the servant being described as an "innocent and guiltless sufferer."
Can anybody tell me where that is written in Isaiah 53?
And than it says: "What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah 53 who had "done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!"
I think that fits beautifully with Israel, about whom it is written: "The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid." Zeph 3:13
Doesn't that fit beautifully with Isaiah 53?
Also, the claim is this: "Why Isaiah 53 cannot refer to the nation of Israel, or anyone else, but must be the Messiah"
I see how they try to disqualify Israel, but how would that proof that it speaks about the messiah? If it is not Israel, than that doesn't proof that it must automatically be JC. It could be the whole rest of world population.
Muslims claim it is Mohammed. So where is the proof that is should be JC?
Eliyahu
genuineoriginal
New member
I provided the link because you are listed as Jewish, so you would be more familiar with the modern Rabbinic teaching that Isaiah 53 is about Israel. What you may not have been familiar with is what the Jewish sages thought before Yeshua HaMoschiach came, because they changed the interpretation after He came.
Can you provide a good explanation on why the Jewish sages changed the interpretation after Yeshua came?
Can you provide a good explanation on why Isaiah 53 is no longer read in the synogogue?
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
Can you give some proof that the interpretation of Isaiah 53 has been changed after the coming of JC?
If you cannot give that, then there is no use trying to give an explanation for something which didn't happen.
No, because Isaiah 53, just like the vast majority of Isaiah, has never been read in the synagogue.
Eliyahu
Elia
Well-known member
You can put it in the open Religion forum. Everyone is allowed to post there.
Bs'd
I think I finally figured it out. That closed Christian forum is a separate forum, and in deed I should be able to post in the Open Religion Forum.
So I'll be moving there, a lot more traffic there.
I'll try to keep on attending to these debates here.
Eliyahu
Some of Isaiah has been read in the synagogues. See years 1, 2, and 3.
http://www.messianic.ws/midrash.htm
Elia
Well-known member
The entire Torah was every three years. The prophets followed the Torah portion. I guess I can't say the entirety of the prophets.
Gill White
New member
Isaiah 53 speaks of Jesus the Christ, (Messiah),
Isa 53:10
(10) Yet, it was the LORD'S will to crush him with suffering. When the LORD has made his life a sacrifice for our wrongdoings, he will see his descendants for many days. The will of the LORD will succeed through him.
Isa 53:11
(11) He will see and be satisfied because of his suffering. My righteous servant will acquit many people because of what he has learned through suffering. He will carry their sins as a burden.
Heb 5:8
(8) Although Jesus was the Son of God, he learned to be obedient through his sufferings.
Rom 5:19
(19) Clearly, through one person's disobedience humanity became sinful, and through one person's obedience humanity will receive God's approval.
Isa 52:13-15
(13) My servant will be successful. He will be respected, praised, and highly honored.
(14) Many will be shocked by him. His appearance will be so disfigured that he won't look like any other man. His looks will be so disfigured that he will hardly look like a human.
(15) He will cleanse many nations with his blood. Kings will shut their mouths because of him. They will see things that they had never been told. They will understand things that they had never heard.
Heb 10:29
(29) What do you think a person who shows no respect for the Son of God deserves? That person looks at the blood of the promise (the blood that made him holy) as no different from other people's blood, and he insults the Spirit that God gave us out of his kindness. He deserves a much worse punishment.
Letsargue
New member
Who do you suppose God was speaking to? – Certainly not the GENTILES!. – Now who did God speak to and of? ----- God was speaking to Israel, not the Jews or the Gentiles, about a Levite who will live in Judea. That person was and is Jesus, and He was Anointed for the Gentile.
Paul – 080711
Deepskyy
New member
Deutero Isaiah (40 to 55) was written during the Babylonian Exile. This is very important to keep in mind.
Isaiah 53 speaks of Israel, but only the righteous of Israel who were carried off with the unrighteous, or that generation who was born into the Exile of Babylon.
In my opinion, the evidence points more toward the generation born within captivity, based on the first stanzas.
I do not believe that this is a messianic passage, because it is missing both sides of the Judaic Messiah formula. There is no specific mention of a re-establishment of the faith (priest) nor a mention of a conquering individual or army (king). I do believe that this is a lamentation poem, but also one that points out the hope for Israel's restoration within that generation that is apart from the sin which led to her downfall.
Isaiah 53 speaks of Israel, but only the righteous of Israel who were carried off with the unrighteous, or that generation who was born into the Exile of Babylon.
This is clearly a reference to either the righteous of Israel who were taken captive, or a generation unaffiliated with that generation whose sins caused them to be overtaken by the Babylonian army. And if that generation, or the righteous, will make an offering to G-d, they will be freed from their captivity.
This is a reiteration of the covenant made between YHWH and Israel, albeit in differing language than say, the Patriarch's covenant.
In my opinion, the evidence points more toward the generation born within captivity, based on the first stanzas.
Growing up as a root from dry ground is a strong indicator of someone born outside of the promised land, one separated from the Glory of that which had been given to Israel.
This points to someone who is unaffiliated with the transgressions which brought upon Israel their captivity, again pointing more towards those who were born after the sins were committed. It is only through their suffering, which is undeserved, and their affirmation of faith that Israel can be made whole again and returned to her home.
I do not believe that this is a messianic passage, because it is missing both sides of the Judaic Messiah formula. There is no specific mention of a re-establishment of the faith (priest) nor a mention of a conquering individual or army (king). I do believe that this is a lamentation poem, but also one that points out the hope for Israel's restoration within that generation that is apart from the sin which led to her downfall.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Is. 53
Is. 53
Yes, I tend to agree that this chapter refers to Israel as a collective community, a 'people', rather than a person. Jesus failed to qualify as the Jewish Messiah (per their criteria) on many counts -
Jewish Messiah Wanted
We cover this more in this thread -
Messianic prophecies that Jesus fulfilled
pj
Is. 53
Yes, I tend to agree that this chapter refers to Israel as a collective community, a 'people', rather than a person. Jesus failed to qualify as the Jewish Messiah (per their criteria) on many counts -
Jewish Messiah Wanted
We cover this more in this thread -
Messianic prophecies that Jesus fulfilled
pj