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The virgin birth in Isaiah 7

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Nick M View Post
    You can always prooftext. It isn't a sign to have a young woman will give birth. That would be normal. It would be a sign from heaven however if a virgin gives birth.

    Isaiah says a virgin.
    We read "virgin" in the English. My question has to do with the nature of the position that attempts to only take "Hebrew meaning" as has been presented.

    Read the passage again. There is a sign, and it may involve the woman but I think it is more about the land and what would happen by a particular time in regard to the boy growing up.

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    • #32
      It isn't a sign to say a young woman will give birth. It is a sign to say a virgin will give birth. It is normal that a young woman would give birth. That isn't any kind of sign. Isaiah said a "virgin". The Holy Spirit chooses his words very carefully. It is only perverts that want to mess it up so they can shake their fist at God.
      Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

      Titus 1

      For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

      Ephesians 5

      11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Nick M View Post
        It isn't a sign to say a young woman will give birth. It is a sign to say a virgin will give birth. It is normal that a young woman would give birth. That isn't any kind of sign. Isaiah said a "virgin". The Holy Spirit chooses his words very carefully. It is only perverts that want to mess it up so they can shake their fist at God.
        Notice the word "before". Isn't the sign evident there?

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Elia View Post
          Bs'd

          No Christian any comment on this one?

          Everybody agrees I'm right and the gospel is wrong?



          Eliyahu light unto the nations


          "Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

          "All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

          This message is sent to you from Mount Zion, Jerusalem, Israel.

          "From Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Y-H-W-H from Jerusalem." Isaiah 2:3, Micah 4:2



          Y-H-W-H! ------- We are English, using the ENGLISH VERSIONS! – His name was called Savior / JESUS by the Creator and himself the Creator. - Jesus is the Savior / God is the Savior of the world! – God’s Body is called JESUS / SAVIOR the “Christ” Anointed by the Holy Ghost, who HE IS, and makes up the THREE, and who is God, the Jesus / Savior / CHRIST! . --- GOD is the SAVIOR / JESUS / the CHRIST!

          Paul – 050911
          ---Gal. 4:16.
          ---"Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth"???

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Nick M View Post
            It isn't a sign to say a young woman will give birth. It is a sign to say a virgin will give birth. It is normal that a young woman would give birth. That isn't any kind of sign. Isaiah said a "virgin". The Holy Spirit chooses his words very carefully. It is only perverts that want to mess it up so they can shake their fist at God.
            Bs'd

            The proofs are abundant that Isaiah said "young woman", and not "virgin".

            And of course, a "virgin birth" is not a sign. Because, how can anybody know the woman really is virgin?

            Did the whole village come to peek between the legs of the woman to see if she really was a virgin?

            Do we just have to take the word of the woman for it, that she is a virgin? Then we are going to have a whole lot more "virgin births".

            The supposed "virgin birth" is not a sign.


            The sign in Isaiah 7 is that before the son who was going to be delivered by the girl who was pregnant would grow up, the land of the two kings of whom Achaz was very afraid, would be deserted, their inhabitants led into exile.

            THAT was the sign, and nothing else.

            And that sign came true, in the days of Isaiah and Achaz, about 700 years before JC.


            Eliyahu light unto the nations


            "Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

            "All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
            Please be advised that everywhere in your translation of your OT when it is written "the LORD" with all capitals, then in the original Hebrew it says the four lettered name of God: Y-H-W-H. That name appears almost 7000 times in the Hebrew Bible.

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            • #36
              Is. 7:14

              Originally posted by Nick M View Post

              It isn't a sign to say a young woman will give birth. It is a sign to say a virgin will give birth. It is normal that a young woman would give birth. That isn't any kind of sign. Isaiah said a "virgin". The Holy Spirit chooses his words very carefully. It is only perverts that want to mess it up so they can shake their fist at God.
              Understanding the Jewish view and traditional interpretation of the verse in question is helpful, in contrast to later Christian interpretations and assumptions.

              Uri Yoseph Ph.D for the Messiah Truth Project does a comprehensive review of Is. 7:14 from both Jewish and Christian perspectives Here and Here.

              ~*~*~

              A proper education on such matters makes for a more informed, wise and intelligent decision in matters of knowledge, affecting translations and applications of faith.

              Since the Christological debates over Jesus nature (human/divine ratio?) raged, so much was being invested to prove Jesus 'divinity', and with creative license scribes took their liberties in the writing of the NT in using certain OT passages as messianic proof-texts for Jesus.

              Outside traditional Jewish/Christian views, there are other perspectives on the value, symbology or validity of a 'virgin birth', beyond mythology.


              pj


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              • #37
                Originally posted by Elia View Post
                Bs'd

                The proofs are abundant that Isaiah said "young woman", and not "virgin".

                And of course, a "virgin birth" is not a sign. Because, how can anybody know the woman really is virgin?

                Did the whole village come to peek between the legs of the woman to see if she really was a virgin?

                Do we just have to take the word of the woman for it, that she is a virgin? Then we are going to have a whole lot more "virgin births".

                The supposed "virgin birth" is not a sign.


                The sign in Isaiah 7 is that before the son who was going to be delivered by the girl who was pregnant would grow up, the land of the two kings of whom Achaz was very afraid, would be deserted, their inhabitants led into exile.

                THAT was the sign, and nothing else.

                And that sign came true, in the days of Isaiah and Achaz, about 700 years before JC.


                Eliyahu light unto the nations


                "Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

                "All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

                Jesus was born of a virgin, and that is the "BODY OF CHRIST" THE CHURCH!!!

                The Church was considered A “VIRGIN”, “BECAUSE” She is a YOUNG LADY ESPOUSED TO THE LORD!!!!! – The Church is not an old woman who is not a virgin!! – READ THE BOOK!!!

                Paul – 033012
                ---Gal. 4:16.
                ---"Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth"???

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                • #38
                  a womb to bring forth a child.......

                  Originally posted by Letsargue View Post

                  Jesus was born of a virgin,.....
                  A wonderful concept, but have you done your homework on the words used in the passage, their meaning in context? My last post with links is one place to start.

                  Mary may have been chosen because she was 'chaste/pure'(virgin-like), but there is no reason to assume she had to be a virgin to bring forth Jesus, - consider that if God could miraculously impregnate a women without the help of a man, he could just as well cause Jesus to come forth thru seemingly ordinary human male/female relations, and Jesus could still be a special soul incarnating in our world of a divine and human mixture, further 'anointed' for a special mission. The Jewish Messiah is an anointed human.

                  Additional theological con-fusions of Jesus being 'God' and 'Man' simultaneously were developments debated over and finally 'formalized' in creeds (made 'orthodox') during the first 7 centuries, at least the initial heat of controversies concerning Jesus' nature.




                  pj


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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by freelight View Post
                    A wonderful concept, but have you done your homework on the words used in the passage, their meaning in context? My last post with links is one place to start.

                    Mary may have been chosen because she was 'chaste/pure'(virgin-like), but there is no reason to assume she had to be a virgin to bring forth Jesus, - consider that if God could miraculously impregnate a women without the help of a man, he could just as well cause Jesus to come forth thru seemingly ordinary human male/female relations, and Jesus could still be a special soul incarnating in our world of a divine and human mixture, further 'anointed' for a special mission. The Jewish Messiah is an anointed human.

                    Additional theological con-fusions of Jesus being 'God' and 'Man' simultaneously were developments debated over and finally 'formalized' in creeds (made 'orthodox') during the first 7 centuries, at least the initial heat of controversies concerning Jesus' nature.




                    pj



                    There is nothing that entered into the choosing of Mary other than Mary was the “espoused” WIFE of Joseph; - the TRUE KING OF ISRAEL. – Both the Priests and the King of Israel at the time of Christ were all false. --- John the Baptist was the TRUE High Priest and when John was killed, Jesus was the next in line to be High Priest!! ----- CHECK THAT OUT, I AM NOT WRONG HERE. – All these other geniuses are without the knowledge of the Truth!!

                    Paul – 033012
                    ---Gal. 4:16.
                    ---"Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth"???

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                    • #40
                      role play

                      Originally posted by Letsargue View Post
                      There is nothing that entered into the choosing of Mary other than Mary was the “espoused” WIFE of Joseph; - the TRUE KING OF ISRAEL. – Both the Priests and the King of Israel at the time of Christ were all false. --- John the Baptist was the TRUE High Priest and when John was killed, Jesus was the next in line to be High Priest!! ----- CHECK THAT OUT, I AM NOT WRONG HERE. – All these other geniuses are without the knowledge of the Truth!!

                      Paul – 033012
                      That's one point of view - here we are discussing the 'virgin birth' particularly, and the belief-system associated with its 'assumption', which is found only in Matthew's narrative. Whether Jesus was a prophet, priest, apostle, king, messiah, wisdom-teacher, etc....depends on what role's one sees him playing.


                      pj


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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by freelight View Post
                        That's one point of view - here we are discussing the 'virgin birth' particularly, and the belief-system associated with its 'assumption', which is found only in Matthew's narrative. Whether Jesus was a prophet, priest, apostle, king, messiah, wisdom-teacher, etc....depends on what role's one sees him playing.


                        pj


                        Doesn't the Word of God play the total role of what's what in TRUTH. - Nothing short of Jesus can speak for God to us, not some smart guy!!!

                        Paul -- 033012
                        ---Gal. 4:16.
                        ---"Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth"???

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Letsargue View Post
                          Doesn't the Word of God play the total role of what's what in TRUTH. - Nothing short of Jesus can speak for God to us, not some smart guy!!!

                          Paul -- 033012
                          Depends on how passages are interpreted and in what context. Intellectual honesty dictates the text be thoroughly researched in every possible way to render the best translation.


                          pj


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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by freelight View Post
                            Depends on how passages are interpreted and in what context. Intellectual honesty dictates the text be thoroughly researched in every possible way to render the best translation.


                            pj


                            WELL if you're right, - and, if I have a LOT of authority, I can say that it's this way, - "Give me your money", and that's what the fools are doing!!! -- God ONLY SAYS what He says. Some people might change it because it doesn't fit their foolishness, but you say we must live with the smarter than God people!! - I'll JUST stick with what's written and what IT SAYS!!

                            Paul -- 033012
                            ---Gal. 4:16.
                            ---"Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth"???

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Letsargue View Post
                              WELL if you're right, - and, if I have a LOT of authority, I can say that it's this way, - "Give me your money", and that's what the fools are doing!!! -- God ONLY SAYS what He says. Some people might change it because it doesn't fit their foolishness, but you say we must live with the smarter than God people!! - I'll JUST stick with what's written and what IT SAYS!!

                              Paul -- 033012
                              Not sure if this addresses the subject of the virgin birth in any way



                              pj


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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by freelight View Post
                                Not sure if this addresses the subject of the virgin birth in any way



                                pj


                                NO! -- It doesn't!!

                                Paul -- 033012
                                ---Gal. 4:16.
                                ---"Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth"???

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