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  • #61
    Originally posted by TomO View Post
    Basic Physics recognizes that without space and matter there is no time.

    If Gen. 1:1, John 1:3, Col. 1:16, & Heb. 1:2 are to be believed then before HIS action there was no time....at least not in the way that we understand/comprehend it.

    .....unless there was a pre-creation of some sort, in which case all bets are off.
    Einsteinian theories of space-time continuums or dimensions are not necessarily true, especially dealing with issues before material creation. You are wrongly assuming that time is a created 'thing' rather than a concept of duration/sequence/succession which the triune God experienced in His relations even before material creation.

    In the beginning refers to the beginning of our universe and our unique MEASURE of time (which should not be confused with time itself). You are simply reading an assumption into the text that time was created in the beginning with everything else. There was a before and after creation for the eternal God, so there is divine temporality from eternity past to eternity future. Only the present is real for God and us (presentism) vs God experiencing eternal now simultaneity (eternalism).
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    • #62
      The issue for God, time, eternity is not theoretical physics, but godly theology and philosophy:

      http://www.scribd.com/doc/275987/Wol...erlasting-1975
      Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

      They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
      I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

      Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

      "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

      The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by godrulz View Post
        The issue for God, time, eternity is not theoretical physics, but godly theology and philosophy:

        http://www.scribd.com/doc/275987/Wol...erlasting-1975
        Theology and philosophy can't just ignor physics when it's inconvenient. God is not involved in theoretical physics but time and eternity are. If, as you assert, time is not a created thing but an "aspect of existence", what about space? Space is intimately bound up with time and time with space. The math of the relativistic physics you want to say is unimportant ,works. It allows us to make accurate predictions which have been tested experimentally.
        Time has been demonstrated to be a dimension. It is necessary to include a measurement of time in any effort to locate anything in space. This is because everything is moving. So if time is a "condition of existence" and endless in duration, then is space also everlasting and endless?

        Which brings up another point. The God you discribe just inhabits space and time, like us. Granted He inhabits more of it but still He is a creature of "existence". He exists within it, just as a fish is a creature of the sea because it exists within the sea.

        That's quite a step down from being Omnipotent. I think we might reasonably want to worship the being who made the framework that your "God" inhabits. If you say that time and space are not created but just "are", how is that different from an atheist saying the universe is uncreated and just "is"?

        The eternalist position is consistent with current scientific understanding of space and time. The eternalist position does not leave us "looking behind God' for the "real' creator and prime mover. The eternalist position requires that we think more deeply than the scibes of bronze age nomadic tribesmen. And why should we not?

        Inorder to accept the eternalist position you have to admit that some of the scribes involved were not just taking down dictation direct from the mouth of God but were putting the ideas they were recieving in language that they coud understand. Perhaps even using figueres of speech and images that they invented to express the ideas God gave them.
        "Not everything that is clever, is true."

        - - St Ephiram of Syria - -

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        • #64
          Originally posted by godrulz View Post
          Einsteinian theories of space-time continuums or dimensions are not necessarily true, especially dealing with issues before material creation.
          The fact that matter and space and time cannot exist independently from one another within the Creation is not exactly something which is up to debate. If it is please illustrate how this could be. The fact that we are dealing with issues before the material Creation is entirely my point. It is also a fact that words mean things when the word "time" is used it means something within the Creation. Whatever things (for lack of a better term) exist beyond the Creation do not fit into any common frame of reference which we have. If what exists in eternity does not fit our definition/concept/ understanding of 'time" then it isn't exactly what we mean when we say "time"....is it?

          You are wrongly assuming that time is a created 'thing' rather than a concept of duration/sequence/succession which the triune God experienced in His relations even before material creation.
          If you are referring to Kant's view of "time" then in this frame of reference (BTW you asserting that Kant is correct does not make it so any more than I asserting the Platonic/Aristotelian view is correct) the details of my argument may shift but the basic premise does not. If 'time" is nothing more than an experienced concept then what is required is the tools necessary to experience it (space & matter) if these do not exist within the Creation than there is nothing on which to base the experience on. The construct falls apart. The fact still remains though that if the ALMIGHTY experiences what HE considers to be a concept called "time" by HIS reference it differs so dramatically from our experience of "time" that the two cannot be one in the same.

          In the beginning refers to the beginning of our universe and our unique MEASURE of time (which should not be confused with time itself).
          If what we are experiencing is not time then we had best develop another name for an experience which is defined by duration, experienced linearly, along a successive series of moments. Myself personally, I prefer the Biblical view that the Creation exists within/experiences time while the ALMIGHTY exists in Eternity and can impact upon time at will. The alternative is to (in my view) reclassify Eternity as an endless series of moments (which I do not consider to be Biblical....perhaps you can tell me how it could be so).

          You are simply reading an assumption into the text that time was created in the beginning with everything else.
          Not necessarily so...and yes I am aware that I said/indicated that time was Created....there is a possibility that it was an result of the act of Creation. Much like for good to exist within the Framework of free choice the potential for evil must as well....IOW if good exists Evil can. It is a possibility that Time is a result of the Creation....not a positive act.

          There was a before and after creation for the eternal God, so there is divine temporality from eternity past to eternity future.
          Very good....now define this temporality. If it matches what we experience as "Time" then we should call it so......but I doubt it will.

          Only the present is real for God and us (presentism) vs God experiencing eternal now simultaneity (eternalism).

          I happen to be an eternalist.....damn glad to meet you. Perhaps you can convince me that I am mistaken?
          Destroy another fetus now, we don't like children anyhow, I've seen the future baby......... It is Murder.
          ~Leonard Cohen

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          “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
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          • #65
            Originally posted by Nick M View Post
            You plan on waiting like George Carlin did? He expects you to confess him before men first. A little humility. You won't even get a drip for your tongue to quench the burn.
            But what if I am right?

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            • #66
              Why don't you ask what the meaning of meaning is?
              a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Sealeaf
                When a daddy god and a momy god love each other very much...
                Originally posted by drbrumley
                Dork!
                Originally posted by Sealeaf
                The sense of humor is the first thing to go.
                No, it's the second thing. The first thing to go is discernment...but you wouldn't understand.
                You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

                Pro-Life






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                • #68
                  Originally posted by This Charming Manc View Post
                  God was then he made the beginning.

                  God is outside and beyond time, he is eterenal. The way you phrase the suggestion suggest God is inside and subject to time. Thats not the way i understand it.

                  God was and then time and space happened.
                  There is no evidence that God is outside of time or that time is a thing to be outside of.

                  What you should said was... God created physical universe but God is spirit.

                  There are no physical laws that govern a spirit. Our own experience is that all physical things have to have a beginning. We then err in trying to but the limitations of the physical world on a God that is spirit.
                  God says He always was. We have no basis to dispute that.
                  Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

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                  • #69
                    WHERE DID GOD COME FROM ?

                    Good question.

                    We can extrapolate or philosophize but we will just have to wait until

                    God the Father and Jesus come to the Earth in the next 20 years

                    and then He will tell us all about Himself.

                    We know that Angels bodies are made of Radioactive Gases and other physical
                    materials which God has breathed into to give them His Understanding
                    just like Jesus breathed into Adam.

                    But what is God made of or where did HE come from is a Mystery that
                    we will have to wait to find out.
                    -----------------------------------------------
                    GOD HAS PROMISED US IMMORTALITY

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by OMEGA View Post
                      WHERE DID GOD COME FROM ?

                      Good question.

                      We can extrapolate or philosophize but we will just have to wait until

                      God the Father and Jesus come to the Earth in the next 20 years

                      and then He will tell us all about Himself.

                      The Bible forbids the dating game relating to His coming. No man knows the hour and we are not to speculate.

                      God has revealed much about Himself in Scripture. We will know more when we see Him, but we are not in the dark now.
                      Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                      They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                      I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                      Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                      "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                      The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        god was made by jesus....go read the bible for christ sake.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Mac_guy View Post
                          So we get that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."


                          How did God come to be "In the beginning"?
                          I believe it is referring to our beginning.

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                          • #73
                            The One Original

                            ~*~*~


                            'God' cannot come 'from' anything, since 'God' is the Origin of everything.





                            pj


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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                              Einsteinian theories of space-time continuums or dimensions are not necessarily true, especially dealing with issues before material creation.
                              Primarily because they don't agree with what the Bible says.
                              It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                                Time is not a created thing. God experiences endless duration/sequence/succession (time) as He is from everlasting to everlasting, eternal, no beginning, no end. He is not timeless. "Eternal now" is a Platonic/Augustinian concept, not a biblical one.
                                Being is an eternal now; would be one located in time, God is the Creator of all the universe and time is a dimension in the universe. God created time unless you believe 'the big bang' created time. If you hold time as something outside God and not under His control, you make time a greater god, even if time is not self-conscious.
                                So, what?

                                believe it!

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