One on One: A Reasonable Dialogue - Sozo and godrulz

[Sozo]

Okay, godrulz, here is my offer...

There are many people on this site who consider you a brother in Christ, so I say we make a fresh start and use this thread to reasonably discuss the biblical issues that we disagree on. But, we have to discuss them. We cannot accuse the other of theological, denominational, affiliations. No accusations that we are teaching someone elses ideas or beliefs. It is just you, me, and the bible. Let's just read it for what it says, and discuss it. I challenge you that the truth of the gospel can be known through the revelation laid out for us in the bible.

Are you up to the challenge? Will you allow me to give you the benefit of the doubt, and give you the opportunity to prove that I have been wrong about you, so that we can fellowship in Christ?

What say you, my friend? Can we bury the hatchet someplace other than each other's skulls? :hammer:



:cheers:

 

[godrulz]

Greetings, earthling.

We can take another kick at the can, but I am afraid that your understanding of core gospel truth may be narrower than I can agree on. In fact, I think very few 'believers' would be able to engage you on this topic to your satisfaction. If I recall, they are not responsible, like I am, for some reason, since I am attempting to understand both views. I trust my salvation is based on Christ and His finished work, not my perfection in understanding every detail of controversial doctrine.

I think we have been over things many times and agree to disagree. I may be defensive when attacked, but in the big scheme of things, my love, joy, peace is based on being accepted in Christ, not having internet strangers endorse my salvation or not.

If you think there is hope and it would help, go ahead and take the lead. I will try to be honest with my understanding, but I am not sure I want to invest the time to give protracted posts that will probably not satisfy you anyway.

Thx for the olive branch. It is appreciated. I would rather you treat me like Paul treated Peter when he was wrong, than the way Jesus treated the Pharisees. You said I was a Pharisee and worse, but, unlike them, I do not reject the Messiah and His finished work, Deity, resurrection, etc.

If Paul had to deal with immature brothers or brothers slipping into legalism, license, etc., I trust you can do the same without resorting to total annihilation of the grace of Christ in my life. :cheers:

 

[godrulz]

Between going to church this morning to worship God in spirit and in truth (Jn. 4:24) and work later, I shall start (though I wanted your leadership for direction).

In 1978, my life was messed up. I had a mental assent to Christianity, but lived as if God did not exist. Any sense of hope would have been based on self-righteousness or not being as bad as the next guy. I was a few feet from heaven, the distance between my head (affirmed biblical, historical Christianity and even witnessed to people from my unregenerate state) and my heart (radical regeneration).

One night, after listening to Jerry Falwell (of all people), I knelt at my bed and fully surrendered to Christ, no conditions. I was in a mental breakdown and bondage to sin. I could do nothing but say yes to God and no to the mess of my life. Next morning (after months of people praying for me and my efforts to get my act together and right with God), I woke up a new creature in Christ, born again by the Spirit of God, through childlike faith, no works. I was saved, but not theologically sophisticated. I had new life in Christ. The radical transformation (which is still ongoing) removed me from the kingdom of darkness and put me in the kingdom of light. I died to self as I was identified with Christ and am now in Him. The Spirit bears witness that I am a child of God (Rom.; Jn. 1:12; 3:16, 36; I Jn. 5:11-13; Rom. 1:16; 10:9, 10; Eph. 2:8-10; etc.).

Old things gradually fell away and my love for God, the lost, and His people grew. The radical change was literally like being 'born again' and a new creature in Christ.

I do not agree with OSAS, but if it is true, as sozo believes, then I should be still saved, despite my interest in theological understanding that most believers could not be bothered with. The average Christian would read the posts of sozo and godrulz and not be able to understand or articulate similarities, differences, etc. They would rightly be able to say, with us, the bottom line: we are saved by grace through faith in the person and work of Christ, not by theological perfection or sophistication (gnosticism?). If I have got some doctrines wrong (e.g. the nature of sanctification after justification), does that mean OSAS is not true or that increasing attempts to understand biblical truth are evidence that one was not saved or that they have lost salvation?

My relationship with God has grown, not been severed, by searching out theological issues (the glory of a king). My profound experience of salvation has not been negated because I question traditional views and lean to Open Theism, etc.

Unless OSAS is not true (I do not agree with it, but I have not apostasized or fallen away either), and unless salvation is not based on simple faith and surrender to Christ apart from years of theological study (that is all I had in the beginning), then we can stop here?

I will be pleased to wrestle with why believers do not live up to the principles of our identity in Christ (clear that many do not, hence the exhortations of the NT), but I would like to do it as a brother, not as a Satan-worshipping, Christ-hating, worse than Hitler, three-headed monster with 4 eyes.

Is this reasonable or should I pack up my bags and let God make things clear when we see Him face to face?

 

[godrulz]

I will remind you about my father's recent step toward Christ if you doubt that I believe salvation is by grace through faith apart from self-righteous works (Eph. 2:8-10)

Titus 3:4-7 "But when the kingdom and love of God our Savior appeared, He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by GRACE, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life."

He goes on to remind us to avoid foolish controversies about the law as being useless. We are to warn divisive people and then have nothing to do with them.

 

[Sozo]

I am remodeling a room today, and my time is limited. I will get to this thread soon.

Thank you for your patience.

 

[godrulz]

I am remodeling a room today, and my time is limited. I will get to this thread soon.

Thank you for your patience.

Have fun. No rush.

No offense. No defense.

 

[godrulz]

I am remodeling a room today, and my time is limited. I will get to this thread soon.

Thank you for your patience.

My eternal destiny hangs in the balance as your point dries. Am I thumbs up or down?

 

[godrulz]

:execute: :help: :shocked:

 

[Sozo]

godrulz... I apologize for the delay in getting to this thread.

I believe that it is of the utmost importance of the things that are on my schedule, and I want to devote my full attention to it, and choose my words carefully, so that there is no confusion between us.

I have 2 kids with birthdays this week, and I am trying to finish my remodeling project before the party.

Please hang in there!

btw... you are free to answer anything else I might have said on another thread while you wait.

:cheers:

 

[godrulz]

godrulz... I apologize for the delay in getting to this thread.

I believe that it is of the utmost importance of the things that are on my schedule, and I want to devote my full attention to it, and choose my words carefully, so that there is no confusion between us.

I have 2 kids with birthdays this week, and I am trying to finish my remodeling project before the party.

Please hang in there!

btw... you are free to answer anything else I might have said on another thread while you wait.

:cheers:

Again, I am half pulling your leg. If you never get back to this thread, that is your right. My destiny really does not depend on your opinion unless I am a hell bound sinner and you alone have the gospel that will save me (both wrong assumptions). I am interested in clearing the air, but am concerned that there will be a communication barrier if we rehash territory we have talked in circles about before.

 

[Sozo]

Greetings, earthling.

We can take another kick at the can, but I am afraid that your understanding of core gospel truth may be narrower than I can agree on. In fact, I think very few 'believers' would be able to engage you on this topic to your satisfaction. If I recall, they are not responsible, like I am, for some reason, since I am attempting to understand both views. I trust my salvation is based on Christ and His finished work, not my perfection in understanding every detail of controversial doctrine.

I think we have been over things many times and agree to disagree. I may be defensive when attacked, but in the big scheme of things, my love, joy, peace is based on being accepted in Christ, not having internet strangers endorse my salvation or not.

If you think there is hope and it would help, go ahead and take the lead. I will try to be honest with my understanding, but I am not sure I want to invest the time to give protracted posts that will probably not satisfy you anyway.

Thx for the olive branch. It is appreciated. I would rather you treat me like Paul treated Peter when he was wrong, than the way Jesus treated the Pharisees. You said I was a Pharisee and worse, but, unlike them, I do not reject the Messiah and His finished work, Deity, resurrection, etc.

Honestly, this thread is designed so that others, whom we may influence, might have the opportunity to understand our differences and to come to their own conclusions about the messages we proclaim without hearing any personal attacks.

If Paul had to deal with immature brothers or brothers slipping into legalism, license, etc., I trust you can do the same without resorting to total annihilation of the grace of Christ in my life. :cheers:

I do not intend to "annihilate the grace of Christ" in anyone's life, but only to prevent it from being annihlated in the lives of others.

 

[godrulz]

Well, "Carry on my wayward friend":

http://www.lyricsdomain.com/11/kansas/carry_on_my_wayward_son.html

(what on earth are they singing about?)

 

[Sozo]

Do you believe that fellowship with God is determined by your behavior?

If so, why?

 

[godrulz]

Do you believe that fellowship with God is determined by your behavior?

If so, why?

God is personal. There is similarity with human relationships. I fellowship with spouse, kids, and friends apart from behavior (not sure what you mean). The Father and Son were face to face (Gk. pros Jn. 1:1) in relationship and intimacy. They loved, communicated, fellowshipped. They were not out doing good works or helping old ladies across the street to maintain intimacy. Like the Psalmist, we can share our hearts and incline our ears to God in prayer. Is this behavior (semantics)?

If you mean can our sense of closeness to God be hindered by volitional sin, I think so. The enemy uses our guilt (like Adam's) to put a sense of separation and barrier between us and God where we hide instead of run to the Father heart of God. This is why the biblical principles of confession and repentance are seen in Psalms and I John.

If you are referring to OSAS, only persistent, godless unbelief (not a behavior nor work) severs the relationship. Swearing at your kids does not make us 'unsaved'.

Relationship and intimacy are not based on behavior. It is based on love, a simple relating of person to Person.

 

[Sozo]

If you mean can our sense of closeness to God be hindered by volitional sin, I think so. The enemy uses our guilt (like Adam's) to put a sense of separation and barrier between us and God where we hide instead of run to the Father heart of God.

So then, it is only in our hearts and minds that there is any "barrier" between us and God if (as you say) we sin? Is that correct?

This is why the biblical principles of confession and repentance are seen in Psalms and I John.

I am asking you to please refrain from preaching. Let's stick to one thing at a time. If you prefer to go over specific textual verses, then I will be happy to go that direction. I just want to know where you stand on the issue of your behavior (whether good or bad) and it's effects on your relationship with God.

If you are referring to OSAS

I'm not. Try to stay focused on one thing at a time, please.

Only persistent, godless unbelief (not a behavior nor work) severs the relationship.

:sigh:

Relationship and intimacy is not based on behavior. It is based on love, a simple relating of person to Person.

Love and relating are not behaviors?

 

[godrulz]

So then, it is only in our hearts and minds that there is any "barrier" between us and God if (as you say) we sin? Is that correct?

I am asking you to please refrain from preaching. Let's stick to one thing at a time. If you prefer to go over specific textual verses, then I will be happy to go that direction. I just want to know where you stand on the issue of your behavior (whether good or bad) and it's effects on your relationship with God.

I'm not. Try to stay focused on one thing at a time, please. :sigh:

Love and relating are not behaviors?

I may need clarification to answer more specifically. What you have in mind for the question may not be what I think you mean.

The wages of sin is death. Sin separates. God is holy. If I fail to tithe, so what (behavior)? If I fail to go to church, so what (behavior). If I am actively commiting adultery, guilt will affect myself, my relationship with spouse (lying and cheating), and my relationship with God. Without holiness, no one will see the Lord. It is more than subjective guilt or pseudo (false) guilt. The fact that the Holy Spirit convicts a person with the Word shows that there is a breach in intimacy in our relationship with a holy God (who can be grieved and quenched by our sin), yet the relationship is not severed (adultery is not godless unbelief).

The exact degree or nature of this is not explictly revealed.

I am not sure what you mean by behavior. E.g.? We have a will to act, a mind to think, and emotions to feel. Many things could be called 'behavior', but they do not make us right with God nor separated absolutely from God.

 

[Sozo]

I may need clarification to answer more specifically. What you have in mind for the question may not be what I think you mean.

I'm beginning to think that the word "reasonable" may need to be clarified.

Reasonable:

Capable of reasoning; rational: a reasonable person.
Governed by or being in accordance with reason or sound thinking: a reasonable solution to the problem.
Being within the bounds of common sense
Not excessive or extreme; fair

godrulz, work with me here. Please stop over-analyzing my questions.

You said...

If you mean can our sense of closeness to God be hindered by volitional sin, I think so. The enemy uses our guilt (like Adam's) to put a sense of separation and barrier between us and God where we hide instead of run to the Father heart of God.

In which I asked...

So then, it is only in our hearts and minds that there is any "barrier" between us and God if (as you say) we sin? Is that correct?

Clarification:

You appeared to be suggesting that "volitional sin" ( a willful decision to sin), causes "separation" and puts a "barrier" between us and God solely through "guilt".

Is that true? Yes or No?

You repeat this same suggestion in your follow-up post...

If I am actively commiting adultery, guilt will affect myself, my relationship with spouse (lying and cheating), and my relationship with God.

Let's try to stay on topic, godrulz. (I've forgotten your first name, but my name is Dave, if you want to use it).

I want to discuss the relationship/fellowship issue with God, not others, at this point.

For clarification, let's use the word fellowship to refer to communication with God (prayer; an unhindered ability to go directly to God about anything).

Let's use the word relationship to refer to a severing of any access to God. In fact, it would mean that the person is completely and eternally separated from God. The relationship is ended.

Therefore, I am assuming that you would suggest that the fellowship is hindered by guilt in the last quote. Is that correct? In other words, because you have a sense of guilt for choosing willfully to sin, you choose not to fellowship with God? Is that correct? From your understanding, it is not God who chooses to break fellowship, but you. Is that what you are saying?

I will get to more of your previous post as soon as we come to some agreement on the above. Please try to just address the questions without adding any theology to your points. I just want to know in the simplest of terms what happens when you sin between you and God, not everyone else.

Thanks!

Your soon to be restored friend (I hope),

Dave

 

[godrulz]

Dave? You don't look like a Dave? William (Bill before my mid-life crisis).

Using your terms (I think), one sin does not sever the relationship forever. When my wife or kids and I fight, we are still family members, but our communication may break down (whether offender or offended). When King David sinned (I know he was not 'born again'), we see his feelings in Ps. 32; 51. They are an expression of a sinful heart before a holy God. David's sin affected his intimacy with God, but did not sever the relationship. Whether this was subjective to David alone, or there was a sense that God 'lifted' the closeness of His presence is debatable. Upon confession and repentance, there was restored intimacy. Is this not what happens in our human relationships? When I am out of sorts with my family, I withdraw, they withdraw, there is anger, hurt, frustration, etc. Naturally, God is not fickle like us. He remains faithful even when we blow it. He urges us to approach His throne of grace in time of need. We have an advocate, a mediator in Christ (Heb. 4).

Some people can chose to fellowship with God despite their sin. It is not like God covers His ears. He is a Father, not a baby. Ideally, we should remain vulnerable and open with God. Practically, many people are oppressed by their guilt and the accuser of the brethren. Does not Hebrews 12 about God disciplining His disobedient children in love for our good have relevant principles?

So, I think we can agree that one sin does not sever the relationship with God. I am not sure if we agree that (I know you do not think Christians sin...so play along) a believer who blows it might feel as if the heaven's are brass from personal guilt, if nothing else. God wants us to deal with what would hurt us and grieve His holy heart (hence the biblical steps of confession, repentance, renewed obedience). He loves us too much to leave us in our unChristlike situation. His holiness will not be mocked.

Is belief really divorced from behavior? He wants us to be holy even as He is holy (Peter)...not just in theory, but in practice (Paul did not divorce doctrine from practical living).

If I keep talking, I will open up friction points, I am sure.

Perhaps give me a well thought out sentence and I will respond in a word or two. I ramble because I do not think there is a simplistic answer to your good questions.

 

[Sozo]

:sigh:

 

[godrulz]

:sigh:

Oh oh...what have I done now?

I know human relationships are analagous, not identical. I am just trying to share generic principles to try to illustrate things. I would not read too much or too little into it and ask for clarification if my ramblings are off base.

If the simple question is worded right, I should be able to answer it with a simple sentence or two.


I suspect you think I think behavior is the issue. I trust the issue is grace, faith, love. I also do not think Jesus divorced faith, love, and obedience (He explicitly linked the concepts). I love my wife, but I also demonstrate this love practically. Your children love you and God, and they demonstrate this with loving obedience in various ways, consistent with Scripture. If we say we love God and others, yet ignore them, do not worship God, do not serve others, etc., then we are not demonstrating this love. This does not mean the demonstration saves us, per se. It does mean our faith, love, and obedience is the real McCoy, not just a mind concept or hypocrisy.