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One on One: Eternal Damnation VS Universal Salvation (Logos_X VS Apologist)

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Apologist
    Nuff said.
    Hardly



    Who cares about what does or does not follow from one's understanding of the scripture? Certain things don't have to follow from one's understanding of the scripture. It can be concluded via sheer logic.
    No it can't.

    Listen, eternal torment is singularly the most disturbing concept ever put foreward by anyone. This most monsterous of doctrines might easily be attributed to someone like Satan. But the Catholic position is that it is the teaching of Jesus of nazareth, the Holy Prophets, the church and anyone using "sheer logic" to be what Father God actually concieved of doing in creating humans with free will.

    I say that needs to be proved.

    So far you haven't.



    Mother Church does not make mistakes!
    Another premise that needs to be proved.

    Good luck with that one.

    A) Copy/paste particularly the relevent part concerning Manichaeism and the soul.
    The most striking principle of Manichee theology is its dualism, a theme gleaned from the Persian religion of Zoroastrianism. Mani postulated two natures that existed from the beginning: light and darkness. The realm of light lived in peace, while the realm of darkness was in constant fight with itself. The universe is the temporary result of an attack of the realm of darkness on the realm of light, and was created by the Living Spirit, an emanation of the light realm, out of the mixture of light and darkness.

    A key belief in Manichaeanism is that there is no omnipotent good power. This claim addresses a theoretical part of the problem of evil by denying the infinite perfection of God and postulating the two equal and opposite powers mentioned previously. The human person is seen as a battleground for these powers: the good part is the soul (which is composed of light) and the bad part is the body (composed of dark earth). The soul defines the person and is incorruptible, but it is under the domination of a foreign power, which addressed the practical part of The Problem of Evil. A human is said to be able to be saved from this power (matter) if they come to know who they are and identify themselves with their soul.

    Ahura Mazda is the beginning and the end, the creator of everything which can and cannot be seen, the Eternal, the Pure and the only Truth. Zoroastrian morality is summed up in the simple phrase, "Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds" (Pendar-e Nik, Goftar-e Nik, Kerdar-e Nik in the present day Persian, Homaato, Hokhto, Hovarasht, in Avestan). Daena (din in modern Persian) is the eternal Law, whose order was revealed to humanity through the Mathra-Spenta "Holy Words". Daena has been used to mean religion, faith, law, even as a translation for the Hindu and Buddhist term Dharma: it is the correct order of the universe, which humanity naturally must follow through the Kusti "Holy Path" in order to be a Behdini "Follower of the Proper/Good Religion".

    Central to Zoroastrianism is the emphasis on moral choice; of life as a battle-ground between moral and immoral forces, represented by Spenta Mainyu and its satanic antithesis Angra Mainyu, the 'good spirit' and 'evil spirit' emanations of Ahura Mazda. This opposition may have emerged from the Indo-Iranian distinction between two forms of spiritual beings, ahuras and daevas. In Zoroastrianism, daevas are portrayed as demonic and destructive while ahuras help to uphold the moral law.

    Additionally, there are some 20 abstract terms that are regarded as emanations or aspects of Ahura Mazda. In later Avestan literature they are personified as an archangel retinue of The Wise Lord. Some historians believe that these archangels were reabsorptions of pre-Zoroastrian deities, daevas. There are six that are mentioned more often than the rest. These are: Vohu Mano (Good Mind), Asha (Truth), Khshatra (Good Dominion), Armaiti (Piety), Haurvatat (Perfection), and Ameretat (Immortality).

    B) Are you trying to say that the position is wrong because it resembles a pagan religion's stance? If so, then that is an Association fallacy.
    No...I'm saying directly it originates from pagan religion...not Jewish, upon which Christian Faith is built.

    The Bible paints a completely different picture to the one you are trying unsuccessfully to defend.

    Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
    Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
    Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

    Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
    Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    It is unbelievable to me, that anyone could accept such weak arguments as though they constitute conclusive proof that billions burn for all eternity and then try to make people believe that this is justice as God defines Justice...that Father God actually created such a situation and called it "good".

    Such a premise demands uncontrovertable proof, because it is God that stands accused and is being portayed as many, many times worse than the most evil of His creatures...

    PROVE IT!

    Comment


    • #62
      No it can't.
      Bull! Did you see the thread in which me and Allsmiles debated a while back? The existence of a monotheistic divine being is proveable without scripture. The implications of a monotheistic divine being is proveable without scripture. The only thing that cannot be proven by logic alone is -which- monotheistic divine being.

      Listen, eternal torment is singularly the most disturbing concept ever put foreward by anyone. This most monsterous of doctrines might easily be attributed to someone like Satan.
      Bah humbugh! I say the opposite. The most monstrous doctrine ever concieved is that Satan, and therefore Hell, exist not.

      But the Catholic position is that it is the teaching of Jesus of nazareth
      Proven, presuming you accept the translation given. You do not. Therefore the teachings of Jesus must be thrown out from this particular conversation.

      the Holy Prophets,
      All you have to do is read the book of Zephaniah for that, unfortunately, you, as a Universalist, read the bible in a much different light than i do. Therefore the prophets must be thrown out from this particular conversation.

      the church and anyone using "sheer logic" to be what Father God actually concieved of doing in creating humans with free will.
      Sheer logic, frankly, is the only thing left to say one way or the other.

      Another premis that needs to be proved.
      That was premise....C, i believe? We'll get to that after this particular line of thought is argued through.

      Originally posted by Logos_x
      snip
      Ok.

      No...I'm saying directly it originates from pagan religion...not Jewish, upon which Christian Faith is built.
      Do you have any idea just how open the Jewish faith is as concerning the afterlife? The Jewish faith doesn't say that much about it.

      From Jewfaq.org

      Afterlife
      Contrary to popular belief, Judaism does believe in an afterlife, but it is not the primary focus of our religion and there is a lot of room for personal opinion about the nature of the afterlife
      Frankly, i had no idea of that particular heresy and it's relation to what i just said. That particular concept is just one that makes sense. If the soul proceeds from God from the substance of God, and the substance of God is indestructable, then so too must the soul be indestructable.

      Do you deny the validity of that reasoning?

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Apologist
        Bull! Did you see the thread in which me and Allsmiles debated a while back? The existence of a monotheistic divine being is proveable without scripture. The implications of a monotheistic divine being is proveable without scripture. The only thing that cannot be proven by logic alone is -which- monotheistic divine being.
        I'm not arguing against a monotheistic divine being , you wingnut!
        Stay on topic!



        Bah humbugh! I say the opposite. The most monstrous doctrine ever concieved is that Satan, and therefore Hell, exist not.
        And in your view...God is no different than Satan that seeks to destroy man.
        Hell exists, only not as the dualistic continuation of evil for all eternity as Catholics and her offspring have conceived of it.



        Proven, presuming you accept the translation given. You do not. Therefore the teachings of Jesus must be thrown out from this particular conversation.
        Not proven in the least/



        All you have to do is read the book of Zephaniah for that, unfortunately, you, as a Universalist, read the bible in a much different light than i do. Therefore the prophets must be thrown out from this particular conversation.


        Your way or the highway. Typical damnationalist rhetoric.



        Sheer logic, frankly, is the only thing left to say one way or the other.
        Because I've utterly destroyed your position, you now have nothing to stand on but your flawed "logic" with nothing under you to support your supposed "logic".



        That was premise....C, i believe? We'll get to that after this particular line of thought is argued through.
        Like I said...good luck with that.



        Ok.
        Ok what?



        Do you have any idea just how open the Jewish faith is as concerning the afterlife? The Jewish faith doesn't say that much about it.

        From Jewfaq.org
        Indeed not. Thank you for conceeding the point.



        Frankly, i had no idea of that particular heresy and it's relation to what i just said. That particular concept is just one that makes sense. If the soul proceeds from God from the substance of God, and the substance of God is indestructable, then so too must the soul be indestructable.

        Do you deny the validity of that reasoning?
        Absolutely, I deny it! You have given me every reason to do so.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by logos_x
          I'm not arguing against a monotheistic divine being , you wingnut!
          Stay on topic!
          You know that isn't what i meant. I am not debating the existence of a monotheistic being. What i am saying is that scripture is only necessary after a certain point.

          And in your view...God is no different than Satan that seeks to destroy man.
          Not really. Satan seeks to destroy man. Man allows Satan to destroy him. God calls to man again and again and again, and never denies him grace when man asks for it. Unfortunately, man, upon death, becomes static in his hardness of heart, presuming he is in a state of aversion, and therefore God leaves him to his own devices. I would hardly call that "God seeking to destroy man"

          Hell exists, only not as the dualistic continuation of evil for all eternity as Catholics and her offspring have conceived of it.
          I would hardly call eternal damnation and eternal "continuation of evil." Rather, i would call it an eternal continuation of punishment.

          Not proven in the least
          Because you view scripture in a very different light; you said so yourself. Therefore scripture altogether must be thrown out.

          Absolutely, I deny it! You have given me every reason to do so.
          You deny it, yet you've really only offered nothing but definitions as opposed to a real proof otherwise.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Apologist
            You know that isn't what i meant. I am not debating the existence of a monotheistic being. What i am saying is that scripture is only necessary after a certain point.
            And what point might that be?



            Not really. Satan seeks to destroy man. Man allows Satan to destroy him. God calls to man again and again and again, and never denies him grace when man asks for it. Unfortunately, man, upon death, becomes static in his hardness of heart, presuming he is in a state of aversion, and therefore God leaves him to his own devices. I would hardly call that "God seeking to destroy man"
            Here we go again.
            Man becomes static upon death...

            That is just plain Horse Hockey!
            Might as well say the moon is made of man in the moon marigolds.



            I would hardly call eternal damnation and eternal "continuation of evil." Rather, i would call it an eternal continuation of punishment.
            You are backpeddling.
            Man does not change after physical death is your premise...therefor their static state continues as it was forever under conditions of burning torture.
            So...you need to be prepared when someone calls you on the implications of your presumed constructs, rather than denying them.



            Because you view scripture in a very different light; you said so yourself. Therefore scripture altogether must be thrown out.
            You're an idiot.



            You deny it, yet you've really only offered nothing but definitions as opposed to a real proof otherwise.
            I have seen absolutely no reason to affirm it. On the contrary, I see every reason to deny it. And every reason to affirm the universalism of the Bible rather than your pagan one.
            Last edited by logos_x; March 27th, 2006, 01:53 PM.

            Comment


            • #66
              Here we go again.
              Man becomes static upon death...

              That is just plain Horse Hockey!
              Might as well say the moon is made of man in the moon marigolds.
              But you have yet to prove otherwise. Frankly, that just makes sense.

              You are backpeddling.
              Man does not change after physical death is your premise...therefor their static state continues as it was forever under conditions of burning torture.
              So...you need to be prepared when someone calls you on the implications of your presumed constructs, rather than denying them.
              Even then, however, the soul is there because he was in a state of aversion. So what is really continuing is the aversion as opposed to the sin itself.

              I have seen absolutely no reason to affirm it. On the contrary, I see every reason to deny it. And every reason to affirm the universalism of the Bible rather than your pagan one.
              You keep saying that, but you have yet to prove otherwise.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Apologist
                But you have yet to prove otherwise. Frankly, that just makes sense.
                It makes no sense whatsoever. It is your veiw that needs the most proving.



                Even then, however, the soul is there because he was in a state of aversion. So what is really continuing is the aversion as opposed to the sin itself.
                Is not the aversion the sin that produces all others? Is it not evil? Does it, in your view, continue forever? Is it not the work of the Devil? Did Jesus not come to destroy all the works of the Devil? Does Jesus not succeed in doing so in your view?

                In fact, in your view, Jesus ceases from being the Savior when one dies, as if death has the victory upon physical death. That is saying just the opposite of what scripture has testified.



                You keep saying that, but you have yet to prove otherwise.
                On the contrary, I have provided substatial proof, the problem is that you deny it.
                What proof have you provided? Your entire agument has been reduced to "sheer logic" that isn't logical at all unless you already believe that eternal torment must be true...and therefore only could possibly be true if eternal torment were true and totally illogical until proven it is true, and you cannot prove as true unless you resort to "sheer logic"

                Your argument is completely circular and keeps on spinning.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Stop me when i reach a premise you disagree with:

                  1)The soul procedes from God

                  2)The soul is of the same substance of God

                  3)God is of indestructable substance

                  4) The soul, therefore, is indestructable.

                  5)Because the soul is of the same substance of God, it shares in the staticity of God
                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  6) The body is temporal.

                  7) The soul resides in the body

                  8) Therefore when the temporal body ceases to restrain the soul, the soul reverts back its own nature: Staticity and indestructability.

                  9) Therefore, because the soul reverts to Staticity, and the Soul, being in a state of Aversion, must therefore remain as such.

                  10) Because the soul is indestructable and static, the punishment it must recieve in its aversion must be everlasting.

                  Any anti proof must come from logic as opposed to scripture.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Apologist
                    Stop me when i reach a premise you disagree with:
                    1)The soul procedes from God (God is the Creator of all that is)

                    2)The soul is of the same substance of God (False)

                    3)God is of indestructable substance (True)

                    4) The soul, therefore, is indestructable. (False)

                    5)Because the soul is of the same substance of God, it shares in the staticity of God (False)
                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    6) The body is temporal. (True, unill it is raised and made immortal)

                    7) The soul resides in the body (True)

                    8) Therefore when the temporal body ceases to restrain the soul, the soul reverts back its own nature: Staticity and indestructability. (False)

                    9) Therefore, because the soul reverts to Staticity, and the Soul, being in a state of Aversion, must therefore remain as such. (False)

                    10) Because the soul is indestructable and static, the punishment it must recieve in its aversion must be everlasting. (False)

                    Any anti proof must come from logic as opposed to scripture. (False)


                    In this entire argument of "sheer logic" there are muliple falsehoods...and you have made no mention..in fact denied:

                    1.) God's immutibility as Savior
                    2.) The resurrection from the dead
                    3.) the destruction of the last enemy...death.
                    4.) the final restitution of all things.
                    5.) God ever getting to His stated will...that all things will be in Christ, all enemies in subjection, and subsequently God being all in all.
                    6.) an end to sin.
                    7.) the destruction of Hades
                    8.) A New Creation in which God fills all things.
                    9.) Evil completely put away.
                    10.) Every knee bowing and every tongue confessing Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God the Father.
                    11.) The importance of scripture as the primary witness to truth to verify that we are in fact in The Faith.
                    12.) the purpose of "punishment" and "judgement".

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      The All-Inclusive "In"

                      There is no phrase or expression that occurs with greater frequency in the New Testament than this: "in Christ". It sometimes varies in translations when "by" and "through" and "with" are used, and sometimes in the original text it changes in form, e.g. "in Christ Jesus," "in Him," etc., but in all the two hundred times of its occurrence the principle is the same. In the whole range of Christian arrangement there is nothing more expansive, and yet nothing less understood and appreciated.

                      In one consummate declaration we are told that God has purposed to sum up all things in Christ (Eph. 1:10) and that outside of Him there is nothing which has any place in the eternal purpose and intention of God. The plan, the method, the resources, the times, the eternities, are Christospheric.

                      The Creation is IN Christ.
                      The Life is IN Christ.
                      The Acceptance is IN Christ.
                      The Redemption is IN Christ.
                      The Righteousness is IN Christ.
                      The Sanctification is IN Christ.
                      The Hope is IN Christ.
                      The Spiritual Blessings are IN Christ.
                      The Consolation is IN Christ.
                      The Peace is IN Christ.
                      The Effectual Prayer is only IN Christ.
                      The Strength and Riches are IN Christ.
                      The Eternal Purpose is IN Christ.
                      The New Creation is IN Christ.
                      The Promises are IN Christ.
                      The Escape from Condemnation is IN Christ.
                      The One Body is IN Christ.
                      The Perseverance is IN Christ.
                      The Gathering into One is IN Christ.
                      The Bonds of Suffering Believers are IN Christ.
                      The "No Separation" is IN Christ.
                      The Perfect Man is IN Christ.
                      The Helpers Together are IN Christ.
                      There are the Churches IN Christ.
                      There are the Dead IN Christ.
                      There is the One New Man and the Perfect Man IN Christ.
                      We are Complete IN Christ.

                      The context of this expression ranges from eternity, through the ages, to eternity. In eternity past we were ALL chosen and predestined together IN Christ. Eph. 1:4; 1 Pet. 5:13.

                      Through time, by the Cross, this eternal heavenly fact is wrought in literal and empirical form - expressed by different terms implying specific, progressive, spiritual truths, but always the same principle.

                      "Planted together in the likeness of his death. Rom. 6:5. "Quickened... together with Christ." Eph. 2:6. "Raised... up together... in Christ." Eph. 2:6. "Made... to sit together... in Christ." Eph. 2:6. "All things to be gathered together... in Christ." Eph. 1:10 "Perfected together." 1 Cor. 1:10. "Fitly framed together" in Christ. Eph. 2:21. "Knit together," Col. 2:2. "Builded together" in Christ. Eph. 2:20. "Live together with him." 1 Thess. 5:10. "Working together with him." 2. Cor. 6:1. "Striving together." Phil. 1:27.

                      Then comes a climax, at the end of this time, when all the foregoing is accomplished and we are "together... caught up." 1 Thess. 4:17.

                      Finally the eternity to come looms into view and we see that we are to be "glorified together" with Him. Rom. 8:17.

                      Then we call to mind the Pauline couplet - which is strictly not Pauline but of the Divine Spirit of truth - namely "in Adam" and "in Christ." On the one side - our relation to Adam, the old creation, by nature - we see one set of conditions; and on the other - by our incorporation in Christ - we see a new and different set.

                      "IN ADAM"

                      "The Lord God... breathed into his nostrils the breath of life." Gen. 2:7. "The first man Adam became a living soul." 1 Cor. 15:45. "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen. 2:17. "As in Adam all die." 1 Cor. 15:22. "The law of sin and of death." Rom. 8:2. "He also is flesh." Gen. 6:3. "The flesh profiteth nothing." John 6:63. "I" - Failure. Rom. 7. "The old man that waxeth corrupt." Eph. 4:22. "The mind of the flesh." Rom. 8:6. "In my flesh... no good thing." Rom. 7:18. "Of the flesh... corruption." Gal. 6:8. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh." John 3:6. "The end... death." Rom. 6:21.

                      "IN CHRIST"

                      "He breathed on them, and saith unto them Receive ye the Holy Spirit." John 20:22. "The last Adam... a life-giving spirit." 1 Cor. 15:45. "Newness of life." Rom. 6:4. "In Christ shall all be made alive." 1 Cor. 15:22. "The law of the Spirit of life." Rom. 8:2. "Spirit" - Victory. Rom. 8. "The new man... created in righteousness and holiness of truth." Eph. 4:24. "The new man." Col. 3:10. "Newness of the spirit." Rom. 7:6. "In the likeness of his resurrection." Rom. 6:5. "Have crucified the flesh." Gal. 5:24. "Our old man was crucified." Rom. 6:6.

                      All this, which is nothing more than quoting Scripture, will serve to emphasize the Divine inclusiveness and exclusiveness, and will facilitate recognition of the great fact that NO MAN CAN LIVE THE CHRISTIAN LIFE; THERE IS ONLY ONE WHO CAN LIVE THAT LIFE, AND THAT IS CHRIST HIMSELF. We must have such an experimental incorporation into Him that He lives His life through us as members of His one Body, so that "to me to live is Christ" and "it is no longer I... but Christ." As the blacksmith's iron is in the fire and also the fire is in the iron, so first we must realize our position in Christ through the Cross where Christ can manifest Himself through us.

                      And then...the whole of creation is included in our victory:

                      Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
                      Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
                      Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
                      Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
                      Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
                      Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature ( all creation) waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
                      Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
                      Rom 8:21 Because the creature (all creation) itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
                      Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
                      Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
                      Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
                      Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Aside from your misunderstanding of the Scriptures, do you have any real logical disagreements here?

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Apologist
                          Aside from your understanding of the Scriptures, do you have any real logical disagreements here?
                          I can logically come to the conclusion that you are not in the least interested in truth. You are only interested in insisting that Catholic doctrine is infallible.

                          I logically conclude that all the evidence thus far says otherwise.
                          Last edited by logos_x; March 26th, 2006, 11:24 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by logos_x
                            I can logically come to the conclusion that you are not in the least interested in truth. You are only interested in insisting that Catholic doctrine is infallible.

                            I logically conclude that all the evidence thus far says otherwise.
                            Aside from your misapplication of scripture, do you have any reasons to say that my conjectures are impossible?

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Apologist
                              Aside from your application of scripture, do you have any reasons to say that my conjectures are impossible?
                              I think that was the idea I was trying to convey...yes.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by logos_x
                                I think that was the idea I was trying to convey...yes.
                                Well, you gave nothing but your own misapplication of scripture, and you didn't really give a yes or no answer as to the very first premise: "The soul procedes from the Father." If you say yes, then you must concede all that comes after. If you say no, then you are denying that God "breathed into us the breath of life." Your pick.

                                Comment

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