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One on One: Eternal Damnation VS Universal Salvation (Logos_X VS Apologist)

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Apologist
    What does a political viewpoint have to do with religious doctrine? That is a really poor attempt at an Ad Hominem "He is a Nazi, therefore his religioius doctrine is false." ??? Explain the thought process behind that?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_mysticism

    Read that and see if you see anything that just might be wrong anywhere on the page and in the links provided.

    Here is a snip...
    Prayer to Hitler

    In Nazism, Adolf Hitler was occasionally compared with Jesus, or revered as a savior sent by God.

    A prayer recited by orphans at orphanages runs as follows:
    Führer, mein Führer, von Gott mir gegeben, beschütz und erhalte noch lange mein Leben
    Du hast Deutschland errettet aus tiefster Not, Dir verdank ich mein täglich Brot
    Führer, mein Führer, mein Glaube, mein Licht
    Führer mein Führer, verlasse mich nicht

    This translates roughly as:
    Leader, my Leader, given to me by God, protect me and sustain my life for a long time
    you have rescued Germany out of deepest misery, to you I owe my daily bread
    Leader, my Leader, my belief, my light
    Leader my Leader, do not abandon me

    When you figure this out, we can continue the discussion...until then, frankly, I see you as just a very mixed up kid that really has no idea what he really believes but is just spouting things to impress or shock people. Beyond that, I think you are hiding behind Catholic dogma to make yourself appear as something you aren't.

    When you can say you are wrong in supporting nazi veiws, and mean it...we can continue. Hopefully it's because you really don't know what it is you are supporting and just think it's cool to be a nazi for some reason. Educate yourself and you'll see how anti-christian and christian views don't mix. Hopefully you'll do this in short order.

    Comment


    • #32
      I am not a supporter of Nazi Mysticism. Honestly, i say i am a Nazi, and you all presume i am an extremist.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Apologist
        I am not a supporter of Nazi Mysticism. Honestly, i say i am a Nazi, and you all presume i am an extremist.
        Nazi's were extremists. I don't think it's presumptuous to assume that you meant what you said when saying you are a Nazi.

        Perhaps you agree with certain Nazi goals or ideas. That does not make one a Nazi.

        Maybe you should clarify what it is you support without identifying those ideas as exclusively Nazi ideas and goals.

        Comment


        • #34
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazi

          http://www.adl.org/PresRele/NeoSk_82/4148_12.htm

          Is this what you are supporting and defending on TOL?

          Comment


          • #35
            None of that is relevent, let us get back to the topic at hand.

            Concerning the topic at hand: I shall concede that Modern Revelation is probably poor evidence for persuasion either way. Therefore, i shall throw that out as positive evidence. I'll skip to E, which is probably my strongest argument.

            F) As according to Sheer Logic as touching the nature of Sin and the nature of Eternity

            First, let us define sin. “St. Thomas (II-II, Q. x, a. 3) arrives at the same conclusion thus: ‘All sin is an aversion from God A sin, therefore, is the greater the more it separates man from God.’”
            http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm
            That being said, sin is properly divided into mortal and venial sin. (Or, for those of you who prefer Pauline terminology… ‘sin that is deadly’ and ‘sin that is not deadly’) Mortal sin is a sin which completely cuts off the sinner from God. Catholic teaching states that those who die in a state of unrepentant mortal sin shall burn forever in the fiery of hell. The logic is simple: When a person dies, he passes from time into eternity. (Evidence is found in one of the Pauline letters…”This mortal must put in immortal…etc.) Eternity is by necessity static.


            Originally posted by The blessed Saint Thomas Aquinas, Angelic Church Doctor, from the Summa Theologica[/quote

            “ I answer that, As we attain to the knowledge of simple things by way of compound things, so must we reach to the knowledge of eternity by means of time, which is nothing but the numbering of movement by "before" and "after." For since succession occurs in every movement, and one part comes after another, the fact that we reckon before and after in movement, makes us apprehend time, which is nothing else but the measure of before and after in movement. Now in a thing bereft of movement, which is always the same, there is no before or after. As therefore the idea of time consists in the numbering of before and after in movement; so likewise in the apprehension of the uniformity of what is outside of movement, consists the idea of eternity.

            Further, those things are said to be measured by time which have a beginning and an end in time, because in everything which is moved there is a beginning, and there is an end. But as whatever is wholly immutable can have no succession, so it has no beginning, and no end.

            Thus eternity is known from two sources: first, because what is eternal is interminable---that is, has no beginning nor end (that is, no term either way); secondly, because eternity has no succession, being simultaneously whole.”



            http://www.ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa...ml#FPQ10A1THEP1

            That being said, if a person passes from death to eternity in a state of aversion from God, then, by necessity of the Staticity of Eternity, he must remain as such.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by logos_x
              Nazi's were extremists. I don't think it's presumptuous to assume that you meant what you said when saying you are a Nazi.
              Absolutely, i am a Nazi. However, i am a Nazi that is intrinsically bound from radicalism by the Church's teachings.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Apologist
                None of that is relevent, let us get back to the topic at hand.

                Concerning the topic at hand: I shall concede that Modern Revelation is probably poor evidence for persuasion either way. Therefore, i shall throw that out as positive evidence. I'll skip to E, which is probably my strongest argument.

                F) As according to Sheer Logic as touching the nature of Sin and the nature of Eternity

                First, let us define sin. “St. Thomas (II-II, Q. x, a. 3) arrives at the same conclusion thus: ‘All sin is an aversion from God A sin, therefore, is the greater the more it separates man from God.’”
                http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm
                That being said, sin is properly divided into mortal and venial sin. (Or, for those of you who prefer Pauline terminology… ‘sin that is deadly’ and ‘sin that is not deadly’) Mortal sin is a sin which completely cuts off the sinner from God. Catholic teaching states that those who die in a state of unrepentant mortal sin shall burn forever in the fiery of hell. The logic is simple: When a person dies, he passes from time into eternity. (Evidence is found in one of the Pauline letters…”This mortal must put in immortal…etc.) Eternity is by necessity static.




                Originally posted by Thomas Aquinas
                “ I answer that, As we attain to the knowledge of simple things by way of compound things, so must we reach to the knowledge of eternity by means of time, which is nothing but the numbering of movement by "before" and "after." For since succession occurs in every movement, and one part comes after another, the fact that we reckon before and after in movement, makes us apprehend time, which is nothing else but the measure of before and after in movement. Now in a thing bereft of movement, which is always the same, there is no before or after. As therefore the idea of time consists in the numbering of before and after in movement; so likewise in the apprehension of the uniformity of what is outside of movement, consists the idea of eternity.

                Further, those things are said to be measured by time which have a beginning and an end in time, because in everything which is moved there is a beginning, and there is an end. But as whatever is wholly immutable can have no succession, so it has no beginning, and no end.

                Thus eternity is known from two sources: first, because what is eternal is interminable---that is, has no beginning nor end (that is, no term either way); secondly, because eternity has no succession, being simultaneously whole.”



                http://www.ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa...ml#FPQ10A1THEP1

                That being said, if a person passes from death to eternity in a state of aversion from God, then, by necessity of the Staticity of Eternity, he must remain as such.
                God, in relation to time is what the Bible presents in the Bible. A point I addressed briefly earlier.
                Also...the "staticity of eternity" is not something the Bible presents, but is presumed out of speculations of immutibility of God and the realm in which He resides.

                I put forward that man does not enter into the reality of eternity until he is made able to do so. This does NOT happen at physical death. It happens when we "put on immortality"...in our glorified state after we are RAISED from death...and after death is defeated. After death, Hell, evil, and all sin have been put away, and after all the works of the devil are destroyed...and when God is all in all.

                This is, in fact, Biblically, EONS from now...AGES from now.

                Originally posted by J. Preston Eby
                A concept we must immediately grasp in order to understand God's plan of the ages is that time is a created phenomena consisting of past, present, and future just as man is created phenomena having youth, middle age, and old age. No, you cannot smell, touch, or feel time, but it is there, ever-present, always marching into the future. Time was created; it had a beginning, it shall have an end. It is only one thing among countless other things that are part of the entire created universe. It is as much a "species" of creation as, for example, rocks, elephants, trees, and water are species of creation. Before the creation of the universe, there was no time; at the end of the ages when the present material universe is dissolved and replaced by a new, spiritual universe, time shall cease to be. It will be swallowed up into eternity just as all death will be swallowed up into victory, and there shall be no more death. Time - composed of milliseconds, seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries, milleniums, ages was created in the beginning, and will be dissolved at the end of the ages.

                A proper understanding of time as a created phenomena having beginning and ending is an absolute prerequisite to a proper understanding of eternity. Time is relative only to the physical universe and the purposes of God therein. Let me ask - If there were no such thing as the planet earth, would there be days? No! If earth didn't have a satellite called the moon, would there be months? No! If both earth and moon didn't have a thing called the sun around which to orbit, would there be years? No! If there were no stars, no suns, no planets, would there be time? No! Time is "duration set forth by measures;" the ticking of a clock, the beating of a pulse, the burning of a candle, the falling of sand through a certain aperture, - these, and a thousand similar regular movements, may serve as measures, more or less exact, of time. Time, then, because it is a created phenomena, can be studied to some extent just as any other part of the creation of God can be studied. We know how it functions by its effects in passing: decay, corrosion, erosion, deterioration, or progression, growth, development, maturity.

                The late Dr. Einstein discovered, at least theoretically, that time and space are interdependent, inseparably related, and form a four-dimensional continuum (length, height, depth, and duration). That is to say, there is no space without time, and no time without space. Space cannot be traversed without the passage of time; without the passage of time, there is no traversing of space. That is why in His post-resurrection, spiritual body, Jesus was able immediately to transcend and traverse the space-time continuum with the speed of thought. By Christ's power, space and time cohere and consist. Without His binding power, space and time would become nonexistent. Also, since we know from the Scriptures that space is created, we can then know that time is created, too. We can also understand that both time and space (as we presently know them) will end together at the conclusion of the ages.

                I am compelled to state that the Bible says very little by way of a definition of eternity because the Bible is essentially a book of time and for time. It was written for man who lives in a temporal state and who is not yet a totally eternal being. Only as we enter that state of being called eternity... only as HE who is eternity becomes "All in All" in us... only as we are spiritually metamorphosized into our eternal condition... only as eternity becomes an absolute reality to us... only then will formerly temporal beings such as we now are truly comprehend and understand eternity and things of an eternal nature. This marvelous work has now begun within our spirit as our spirit has been quickened by His Spirit. I stated that the Bible is relatively silent about what eternity is; that is not to say that human teachings and theology haven't taught us a great deal about eternity, but, alas! much of it over the past centuries has come from the carnal minds of Babylonish theologians and not from the mind of the Eternal One via the Holy Spirit.

                Eternity is a state of absolute timelessness, not of unending time. Eternity is a state of being, resident in the very nature and person of God in which such concepts as past, present, future, before, after, change, transition, growth, decay, etc. do not exist. It is wrong to assert that, when time ends, eternity will begin, because eternity has no beginning. Neither did it end when time began, as so many charts indicate.

                Therefore it is very important that we make a clear distinction between ages, which belong to time, and eternity, which is timeless. It is more important still that we, in our study of the Bible, search out diligently those passages which refer to time and those which refer to eternity. Do you have it yet? Do you see? Time is not part of eternity; eternity is not composed of segments of time. Eternity is not time standing still; it is simply not time at all. Eternity doesn't go on and on and on, ad infinitum. Eternity doesn't go anywhere, nor does it do anything. Eternity simply is. Eternity is part of the very nature and person of God. Eternity transcends beyond our knowing anything having to do with time. It is not time at all. It is just a glorious experience of being! Eternity simply is, just as God simply is. Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM" (Jn. 8:58) - not "Before Abraham was, I WAS." There are not past or future tenses in eternity. There is only one eternal NOW.
                God is the source of eternal Life...man does not possess eternal life apart from Him.
                There is no life from death apart from resurrection. There is no "putting on immortality" apart from Him. There is no victory apart from Him.

                More in my next post
                Last edited by logos_x; March 24th, 2006, 11:48 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Apologist
                  Absolutely, i am a Nazi. However, i am a Nazi that is intrinsically bound from radicalism by the Church's teachings.
                  Ok, Apologist, I'll give you the benifit of the doubt. It still makes sound like nothing more than a mixed up kid just out for the next outrageuos idea that drives everyone around you nuts just to get your jollies.

                  I'll chalk it up to young stupidity and leave it there.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    From Time to Eternity

                    From J Preston Eby,

                    This phenomena called time was created by God for man. Why? Time is the womb from which God is birthing a people like unto Himself. We get the germ, the beginning and foretaste of eternity in time, but this is only the seed of eternal life. This womb of time is provided to aid man in his development, to assist him in preparation for a new, totally spiritual existence beyond time, beyond the last age, when the umbilical cord is cut, in a state of existence called eternity. Man, as he is dealt with by God, is passing from a gross, largely material consciousness, into a glorious spiritual existence. Time serves only as an instrument to help man, to give him time and experience to develop into that new state of being. In time there is change - in eternity there is no change. All change and development must take place in time.

                    Thank God! We are being changed! But that means that the life of God within is still in a limited, imperfect, underdeveloped state. That life as to our condition and state of being is limited, imperfect, and in some measure immature. God has dispensed that life into us in time, that through a process of time with its experiences the spiritual life may be perfected and matured, brought to the fullness of that which He Himself is. When the process is completed and we are like Him fully and see Him as He is, there will be no more change. We will then truly know what eternal life is! But as long as the life within is passing through the process of change, growth, and development, it is not viewed as eternal, unchangeable life, but as the life of the ages, life undergoing the dealings of God in time.

                    The eternal security of the believer is known only by the overcomers who have fully and forever conquered every vestige of the world, the flesh, and the devil, being conformed into the image of the Son. Of these triumphant ones it is written, "To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the Tree of Life," and again, "He that overcomes... I will NOT BLOT HIS NAME OUT of the Book of Life" (Rev. 2:7; 3:5).

                    The inference is clear ... until this "overcomer" state is attained, it is possible to have one's name blotted out of the Book of Life! That does not mean that the name cannot be written there again, any more than it could be said that it was impossible for it to be written there in the first instance. But it does indicate that the life possessed by a Christian who is not fully an overcomer is not by God's definition eternal life, for if it were absolutely eternal it could not be lost! Little wonder, then, that our Lord says to the Church at Smyrna, "Be faithful unto death, and I will give you a CROWN OF LIFE" (Rev. 2:10). It is my deep conviction that He speaks not of the death that takes this old body to the cemetery, but the death that comes by the inworking of the cross until all that pertains to the realm of carnality has been completely and forever dealt with. Then, and only then, are we crowned with life, His life reigning within without interference or possibility of defeat.

                    The life we now have is a progressing, growing, conquering life - the life of the ages. It is life that has come by the quickening of our spirit by His Spirit, giving a new beginning, and the potential to become, in due time, all He is. But I am sure my readers, with myself, must confess that there is a great deal of progress still to be made, considerable growth to be experienced, much transformation to be wrought before we stand in Him in the fullness of that life that needs no change, no further development, no additional experience, no more growth, no fuller stature, no added triumph, no increase of wisdom and knowledge - that state of being as unchangeable as He is unchangeable, as eternal as He is eternal!

                    Only faintly now do our eyes behold the splendor of that eternal realm which ties before us, but if we approach softly with reverence and godly fear, not disrespectfully and thoughtlessly as nosey children prying into some sacred thing, then the Lord of glory will meet us and will be a Father unto us and we shall be the Sons of God in whom the Father shall unfold the fullness of His life, mind, will and glory. Thus shall we come into that same image and be sharers with the Christ in the glory He had with the Father before time was--eternal glory!! GLORY!

                    I think I know why some become so enraged when we tell them that we do not now possess the absolutely eternal life. Is it not because they would rather ignore this life of the ages, somehow projecting themselves into that life which is eternal, claiming "by faith" the finished product, while by-passing the tedious processing? Ah, dear ones, it doesn't work that way! God has graciously given unto us life aionios - the life of the ages - and how I thank God that my present state of being is not eternal! There is more! I would follow on to know Him in all fullness. And it will take "the ages," my friend, to unfold it all. As long as there is need for growth, change, and advancement, there is need for time. But redemption as a completed plan has a unique relationship to time. Until redemption is complete its work will proceed in time, but the finished work of redemption stands at time's end. Thank God! There is an end - then eternity, God all in all!
                    I reiterate...universal salvation sees all of scripture...the very same scripture you have in your Bible...but through a paradigm that the Holy Spirit reveals...when it comes to the enduring question "where are we going"...the answer is always toward God and to an end where He is all in all.
                    Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

                    Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
                    Phi 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

                    Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
                    Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
                    Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
                    Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
                    Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
                    Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell;
                    Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

                    The only true and eternal God will perform just what this says.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Logos, before i say anything else, i am just curious as to what you think of the very last couple of lines from the book of Revelation:

                      Revelations 22:18

                      I warn everyone who hears the prophetic words in this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city described in this book.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Apologist
                        Logos, before i say anything else, i am just curious as to what you think of the very last couple of lines from the book of Revelation:

                        Revelations 22:18
                        I warn everyone who hears the prophetic words in this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city described in this book.
                        Jesus Christ warns all those who consider this book to beware of indulging their own conjectures concerning it. I confess that this warning has its own powerful influence upon my mind, and has prevented me from indulging my own conjectures concerning its meaning, or of adopting the conjectures of others.

                        There are many Bible teachers who much to do about the verse in the book of Revelation that warns about plagues coming upon anyone’s head who adds or takes away from the book. Many Bible teachers, theologians, church leaders, Biblical scholars have used this verse in such a manner as if John was referring to the entire Bible. However, he specifically mentions “this book,” one book, singular. At the time of his writings the writings which would commonly but falsely come under the heading of the New Testament were not yet canonized. The warning referred to the book of Revelation, not the entire Bible.

                        It is quite ironic that the very verse which warns about tampering with the Bible or parts thereof is a verse that has been, in fact, tampered with, and quite significantly. As we can see below, the King James Version of the Bible states that God will take away one’s part out of the “book of life” while the New International Version takes away one’s share in the “tree of life.”

                        Revelation 22:18-19 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (KJV, Rev. 22:18-19)

                        Revelation 22:19 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. (NIV, Rev. 22:19)

                        Which version is true? And which version has been tampered with? And have the plaques come upon those who made the error? Did the one who introduced the error have the plaques come upon him? And has his name been blotted out of the “book of life” or has his part been taken away in the tree of life? Who is this character?

                        In this particular case, the King James Version, the “Authorized Version” which many Fundamentalists and Evangelical dub an “Inerrant Bible” is the culprit, the translation with a plain old error right in the very text many use to warn people about adding or taking away from the Bible.

                        That said..I believe the verse means that the prophecy itself is to remain intact and untampered with. The words were to not be changed, and no other words were to be added to the book of Revelations.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          The Ludicrous Threat of Eternal Torment

                          As I reviewed what has been presented so far, I realized that my veiw still might not be very clear to those unfamiliar with it's truth. And, in trying to find a way to drive it home, I remembered that Martin Zender wrote a short and beautifly written peice, upon which I could never improve upon, that would drive the point home very nicely...


                          http://www.martinzender.com/ludicrou...al_torment.htm

                          This is, quite simply, the brilliance of God's plan of the ages summarized without any extraneous distraction or erroneous speculation, and written so simply that I think anyone can see it's truth and understand it...even mixed up kids.

                          The one above, and the next one I'm about to share below...should, I think, be enough to understand virtually everything else the early Christian veiw of the Savior really was before dogma hijacked the whole enterprise.

                          http://www.martinzender.com/eonion_l...ernal_life.htm

                          If you get these points...you will understand just what the Catholics messed up. This coupled with their militaristic perversion of the Gospel itself, created an apostate church that plunged the western world into the Dark Ages.

                          Now you know!
                          Last edited by logos_x; March 26th, 2006, 06:04 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Logos, i specifically brought up that verse because it says that the "Share in the book of life and the holy city" shall be taken away. That seems to infer that salvation shall be lost for that person. Do you deny that?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Apologist
                              Logos, i specifically brought up that verse because it says that the "Share in the book of life and the holy city" shall be taken away. That seems to infer that salvation shall be lost for that person. Do you deny that?
                              No. I do not deny that. ( Actually, as I brought up before, it is tree of life, not book of life)
                              That is the way it seems.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by logos_x
                                No. I do not deny that. ( Actually, as I brought up before, it is tree of life, not book of life)
                                That is the way it seems.
                                Groovy. Then you are forced to concede that..

                                A) Universalism is bull
                                B) That particular verse is not inspired.

                                Comment

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