Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

One on One: beanieboy's questions get answered.

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Knight
    Let me give you a more simple answer....

    Calvinism makes the claim that God predestined all events for all of time even down to the smallest detail. Every movement of every molecule, every thought and every action for all of history was predetermined in advance by God.

    Yet the Bible is filled with stories describing mans rejection of God and God's will.
    Do a lot of people hold a Calvinistic view? And if so, why did people come to that conclusion?
    "If you will think of ourselves as coming out of the earth,
    rather than having been thrown in here from somewhere else,
    you see that we are the earth,
    we are the consciousness of the earth.
    These are the eyes of the Earth.
    And this is the voice of the earth."

    Joseph Campbell

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by beanieboy
      I might as well give you a question to ponder, while I'm pondering your answer:

      Q: do you ever find some problems with what the bible says, and what you believe or understand?
      Yes . . I do, yet less now than when I was a new Christian.

      However, I have far more problems with the alternative.
      Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
      TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by beanieboy
        Do a lot of people hold a Calvinistic view? And if so, why did people come to that conclusion?
        Calvinism is rooted in Greek philosphy.

        It can be traced and documented but I think the answer may be out of the scope of this thread. If you are really interested I can point you to some detailed information.
        Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
        TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

        Comment


        • #19
          I would. I agree with your problems with it, and would like to figure out the origins, and how one could come to that conclusion.

          Again, thanks for the help.
          "If you will think of ourselves as coming out of the earth,
          rather than having been thrown in here from somewhere else,
          you see that we are the earth,
          we are the consciousness of the earth.
          These are the eyes of the Earth.
          And this is the voice of the earth."

          Joseph Campbell

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Knight
            Yes . . I do, yet less now than when I was a new Christian.

            However, I have far more problems with the alternative.
            Can I ask what they are?

            I was reading a book called Stealing Jesus, and the author talked about things it was hard to admit he had a problem with, like the virgin birth.

            Because of the personal nature of the question, you have a "I'd rather not answer" option here.
            "If you will think of ourselves as coming out of the earth,
            rather than having been thrown in here from somewhere else,
            you see that we are the earth,
            we are the consciousness of the earth.
            These are the eyes of the Earth.
            And this is the voice of the earth."

            Joseph Campbell

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by beanieboy
              I would. I agree with your problems with it, and would like to figure out the origins, and how one could come to that conclusion.

              Again, thanks for the help.
              Start here.
              Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
              TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by beanieboy
                Can I ask what they are?

                I was reading a book called Stealing Jesus, and the author talked about things it was hard to admit he had a problem with, like the virgin birth.

                Because of the personal nature of the question, you have a "I'd rather not answer" option here.
                Let me answer by listing some things that I previously HAD a problem understanding, but now I know better.

                - I can remember not understanding the concept of OSAS (once saved always saved).

                - I can remember not understanding how the earth could be relatively young instead of amazingly old.

                - I can remember being confused that I could be confident in God's forgiveness about some serious past sins in my life.

                - I can remember not understanding why there where some really bizarre sounding laws in the Old Testement.

                Etc.
                Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
                TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Knight
                  Let me answer by listing some things that I previously HAD a problem understanding, but now I know better.

                  - I can remember not understanding the concept of OSAS (once saved always saved).

                  - I can remember not understanding how the earth could be relatively young instead of amazingly old.

                  - I can remember being confused that I could be confident in God's forgiveness about some serious past sins in my life.

                  - I can remember not understanding why there where some really bizarre sounding laws in the Old Testement.

                  Etc.
                  Those are pretty understanding things to have issues with.

                  Do you ever have, or had, problems with some of the stories, ie, the talking donkey, the flood, God talking (in voice) etc.?

                  Or what about now - are there things that you question in other denoms, like speaking in tongues, praying to Mary, etc. ?

                  And when you have these questions, how do you seek answers? How do you know you have come to God's answer, and not the one you want to believe?

                  (btw, thanks again, today. This is very generous of your time.)
                  "If you will think of ourselves as coming out of the earth,
                  rather than having been thrown in here from somewhere else,
                  you see that we are the earth,
                  we are the consciousness of the earth.
                  These are the eyes of the Earth.
                  And this is the voice of the earth."

                  Joseph Campbell

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by beanieboy
                    Those are pretty understanding things to have issues with.

                    Do you ever have, or had, problems with some of the stories, ie, the talking donkey, the flood, God talking (in voice) etc.?
                    Not really. If God is powerful enough to create something as complicated as the molecule and as vast as the universe I don't find it all that odd that He would be able to grab man's attention in a creative way.

                    Or what about now - are there things that you question in other denoms, like speaking in tongues, praying to Mary, etc. ?
                    Of course. I question other denominations all the time and I also rebuke them as much as possible on areas that they are in obvious error.

                    My goal is not to win arguments yet my goal is to be a right as possible and as close to God as possible. For me... working toward my goal means engaging the folks who disagree with my views.

                    And when you have these questions, how do you seek answers? How do you know you have come to God's answer, and not the one you want to believe?
                    God's word!

                    That is why the Bible is so incredibly important. For if we didn't have it how would we know when we are right or wrong regarding God's will for us?

                    And believe it or not there really are right and wrong answers for things like....
                    - Should we be baptized with water.
                    - Should we still honor the sabbath
                    - Can we lose our salvation
                    - Should we pray to Mary or other saints
                    - Etc.

                    (btw, thanks again, today. This is very generous of your time.)
                    It is my pleasure.
                    Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
                    TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Knight

                      And believe it or not there really are right and wrong answers for things like....
                      - Should we be baptized with water.
                      - Should we still honor the sabbath
                      - Can we lose our salvation
                      - Should we pray to Mary or other saints
                      - Etc.

                      It is my pleasure.
                      You realize that you opened a whole can of worms, right
                      "If you will think of ourselves as coming out of the earth,
                      rather than having been thrown in here from somewhere else,
                      you see that we are the earth,
                      we are the consciousness of the earth.
                      These are the eyes of the Earth.
                      And this is the voice of the earth."

                      Joseph Campbell

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by beanieboy
                        You realize that you opened a whole can of worms, right
                        Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
                        TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I have a few questions that popped into my head today:
                          (answer in your own time)

                          1. If someone came on the board and said they were Jewish, or Muslim, would it be okay to call them derogatory names so as not to encourage the faith?

                          2. What is blasphemy against the HS?

                          3. Why can one not lose their salvation?
                          If you were christian, and now aren't, why are you still saved?
                          Or am I misunderstanding that?
                          "If you will think of ourselves as coming out of the earth,
                          rather than having been thrown in here from somewhere else,
                          you see that we are the earth,
                          we are the consciousness of the earth.
                          These are the eyes of the Earth.
                          And this is the voice of the earth."

                          Joseph Campbell

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by beanieboy
                            I have a few questions that popped into my head today:
                            (answer in your own time)

                            1. If someone came on the board and said they were Jewish, or Muslim, would it be okay to call them derogatory names so as not to encourage the faith?
                            If a new member came on TOL and said "Hi, I am Jewish." or "Hi I am Muslim." it would NOT be OK for another TOL member to call them derogatory names.

                            2. What is blasphemy against the HS?
                            The rejection of the Holy Spirit is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which explains why it would be unpardonable.

                            Think of it this way....

                            God forgives us in the same manner that He expects us to forgive others

                            Luke 17:3 “Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

                            Therefore, if a person sins against you and that person never repents or asks for forgiveness that sin is essentially unpardonable.

                            3. Why can one not lose their salvation?
                            If you were christian, and now aren't, why are you still saved?
                            Or am I misunderstanding that?
                            In the dispensation of grace God seals the believer into the Body of Christ when they repent and accept Christ's work on the cross (2Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30). This of course is very different from any other dispensation in the Bible which causes some confusion for those who do not realize that God's "house rules" have changed.

                            It's difficult for many folks to...
                            2Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

                            THEREFORE . . .
                            If walking away from Christ would be sinful (and it would be) it only makes sense that even the sin of rejection is covered the same as any sin in this dispensation.

                            If someone has been actually saved (with a pure heart) God will remain faithful and will consider them holy and blameless until the day of redemption.

                            2Timothy 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

                            If we had to work to maintain salvation through grace it wouldn't be grace at all would it?

                            Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
                            Last edited by Knight; May 10th, 2005, 11:21 AM.
                            Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
                            TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Knight
                              If a new member came on TOL and said "Hi, I am Jewish." or "Hi I am Muslim." it would NOT be OK for another TOL member to call them derogatory names.
                              I'm glad to hear that.
                              The rejection of the Holy Spirit is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which explains why it would be unpardonable.
                              Is this different than rejection of Jesus as you PL&S?
                              As a Lutheran, we rarely talked about the HS, so most of us were never sure what the blasphemy was. It's blasphemous to make a joke about what Jesus said on the cross. So, we were always worried that if we made a joke about the HS, we were going to hell.

                              When I was a kid, I used to sing in church. Unable to read, I would sing along, "cast me not awayyy from your presence, and take out the Holy Spirit from me..." When I was 7, I read the words: "take NOT the Holy Spirit from me". Then having learned about blasphemy of the HS, I lived in fear for months before I explained to my parents why I was acting so strangely in church.


                              Think of it this way....

                              God forgives us in the same manner that He expects us to forgive others

                              Luke 17:3 “Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

                              Therefore, if a person sins against you and that person never repents or asks for forgiveness that sin is essentially unpardonable.
                              But didn't Jesus say, "father, forgive them, for they know not what they do"?
                              He was pardoning sin before repentence, and dying for sin before repentence.
                              Do you not forgive people until they ask for forgiveness?
                              In the dispensation of grace God seals the believer into the Body of Christ when they repent and accept Christ's work on the cross (2Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30). This of course is very different from any other dispensation in the Bible which causes some confusion for those who do not realize that God's "house rules" have changed.

                              It's difficult for many folks to...
                              2Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

                              THEREFORE . . .
                              If walking away from Christ would be sinful (and it would be) it only makes sense that even the sin of rejection is covered the same as any sin in this dispensation.

                              If someone has been actually saved (with a pure heart) God will remain faithful and will consider them holy and blameless until the day of redemption.

                              2Timothy 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

                              If we had to work to maintain salvation through grace it wouldn't be grace at all would it?

                              Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
                              So, technically, I am saved???

                              I'll really have to think long and hard about that.
                              Last edited by beanieboy; May 10th, 2005, 01:40 PM.
                              "If you will think of ourselves as coming out of the earth,
                              rather than having been thrown in here from somewhere else,
                              you see that we are the earth,
                              we are the consciousness of the earth.
                              These are the eyes of the Earth.
                              And this is the voice of the earth."

                              Joseph Campbell

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by beanieboy
                                I'm glad to hear that.

                                Is this different than rejection of Jesus as you PL&S?
                                As a Lutheran, we rarely talked about the HS, so most of us were never sure what the blasphemy was. It's blasphemous to make a joke about what Jesus said on the cross. So, we were always worried that if we made a joke about the HS, we were going to hell.

                                When I was a kid, I used to sing in church. Unable to read, I would sing along, "cast me not awayyy from your presence, and take out the Holy Spirit from me..." When I was 7, I read the words: take OUT the Holy Spirit. Then having learned about blasphemy of the HS, I lived in fear for months before I explained to my parents why I was acting so strangely in church.
                                Many churches have a hard time shedding the tendency to be overly legalistic which causes confusion about God and His relationship with us.

                                But didn't Jesus say, "father, forgive them, for they know not what they do"?
                                Jesus said those words in regard to Him being crucified.

                                It wouldn't be a good idea to build an entire theology based on a single story that you may be taking out of context.

                                The key words in Jesus request were.... "for they know not what they do". Now lets review . . . they knew they were executing an innocent man so what was it that they were doing that they weren't aware of?

                                Jesus knew that those who were crucifying Him had no idea that He was actually God. Jesus mercifully didn't want those crucifying Him to have that massive burden placed on them for all of eternity. Unless all the folks responsible for nailing Jesus to the cross later repented it is very likely they are all in hell, yet it is also possible that the Father has forgiven them (or eased their burden) in regard to nailing the Son of God to the cross.

                                He was pardoning sin before repentence, and dying for sin before repentence.
                                That isn't what He was doing. He was ASKING that the Father to forgive them for what they were unaware of doing. Nothing more, nothing less.

                                Yet moreover beanie, you know what you are doing! You know you are an abomination to God so why would you choose this story in an attempt to justify your behavior?

                                Even if all that I already stated regarding this passage weren't accurate it still wouldn't apply to you.

                                Would it?

                                Do you not forgive people until they ask for forgiveness?
                                That would be sort of weird don't you think?

                                So, technically, I am saved???
                                How so?

                                Have you repented, asked God to forgive you of your sin, believed that God died for you and rose on the third day? And done all of this with a PURE heart?
                                Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
                                TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X