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[Freedm]

It would be impossible for you to prove that the seventh trumpet is blown after the thousand years

Don't you believe what your Bible tells you?

Look:

Revelation 11:15-18

15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

It's all right there. How can you not see that the time for the judging of the dead happens when the 7th trumpet is blown? How can you say that there's no proof when it says it right there? If this is not proof then what would you consider proof? Is it only proof if it matches what you already believe? Is that it?

 

[Freedm]

I stopped reading that post right after "NIV translation". As I mentioned, that "translation" is an abomination.


The NIV is complete and utter CRAP.

1. It's NOT "a son of man", it's THE son of man!
2. It's NOT not THEM, it's HIM!

It you're going to force your doctrine to rely on garbage (NIV), you'll end up with garbage for doctrine.

If you want to go translation hopping, look around. Other translations, like the NASB (which is based on the same manuscripts as the NIV) has this:

[FONT=&]5 For He did not subject to angels [g]the world to come, concerning which we are speaking. 6 But one has testified somewhere, saying,[/FONT]
[FONT=&]“What is man, that You remember him?
Or the son of man, that You are concerned about him?

7 [FONT=&]“You have made him for a little while lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,
And have appointed him over the works of Your hands;
[/FONT]
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”
[/FONT]
For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.[FONT=&]
[/FONT]
​

Your contempt for the NIV reveals your lack of objectivity on the KJV. All translations have problems but you seem to be willing to accept 100% of one, while throwing out 100% of another. That's not very objective. That's just childish.

Try opening your mind to the possibility that you don't know everything.

 

[Freedm]

The Hebrew word for throne is כִּסֵּא kicce' which comes from כָּסָה kacah which means something covered.
The "throne" of David is everything covered by the authority and power of David as king, and includes the entire land of Israel and all the children of Israel.

Good. So knowing that Jesus currently has all authority and power, you must then also believe that he's currently sitting on the throne of David. Correct?

 

[Right Divider]

Your contempt for the NIV reveals your lack of objectivity on the KJV.

Pure nonsense. The NIV ADDS words that are NOT there as if they were.

All translations have problems but you seem to be willing to accept 100% of one, while throwing out 100% of another. That's not very objective. That's just childish.

Try opening your mind to the possibility that you don't know everything.

Your continued insults are unnecessary.

The NIV is the ONLY translation that uses THEM in Psalm 8 and Hebrews 2. IT is the WRONG translation.

 

[Freedm]

The NIV ADDS words that are NOT there as if they were.

That may very well be, but don't ignore similar problems with the KJV.

Like for example how the KJV added the words "blessed art thou among women" in Luke 1:28.

Or how in Romans 11:4 the KJV added the words "image of"?

Or my personal favourite; how the KJV includes the Johanneum Comma (1 John 5:7-8), the single most compelling scripture for Trinitarian doctrine, which was not found in any Greek manuscripts until the 15th century.

Are those the kinds of errors you're talking about? Is so, then perhaps you should be more careful and thorough with all translations, and not cling to the lazy notion that you can fully trust your chosen translation over all others.

The fact is both the KJV and NIV have errors, and they both also have enlightenment, but when in doubt you should always reference a Hebrew or Greek lexicon.

 

[Right Divider]

That may very well be, but don't ignore similar problems with the KJV.

Like for example how the KJV added the words "blessed art thou among women" in Luke 1:28.

Or how in Romans 11:4 the KJV added the words "image of"?

Or my personal favourite; how the KJV includes the Johanneum Comma (1 John 5:7-8), the single most compelling scripture for Trinitarian doctrine, which was not found in any Greek manuscripts until the 15th century.

Are those the kinds of errors you're talking about? Is so, then perhaps you should be more careful and thorough with all translations, and not cling to the lazy notion that you can fully trust your chosen translation over all others.

The fact is both the KJV and NIV have errors, and they both also have enlightenment, but when in doubt you should always reference a Hebrew or Greek lexicon.

Regardless of your problems with the KJV, the NIV is the ONLY translation that uses THEM instead of HIM in Psalm 8 and Hebrews 2.

So you think that the NIV is the ONLY one that is right?

You force the use of the NIV to support the preconceived doctrines.

 

[Freedm]

Regardless of your problems with the KJV

They are not "my" problems with the KJV, they are simply problems.

You force the use of the NIV to support the preconceived doctrines.

No. I'm using the NIV to clarify what can also be discerned from the KJV.

 

[Right Divider]

No. I'm using the NIV to clarify what can also be discerned from the KJV.

No, you used the ONLY translation that botches Psalm 8 and Hebrews 2 to try to support your doctrine.

 

[Freedm]

No, you used the ONLY translation that botches Psalm 8 and Hebrews 2 to try to support your doctrine.

I'm not here to get into a shouting match with you. I'm here to discuss and debate with mature people who are earnestly looking for better understanding. If that's not you, feel free to respectfully disengage, and if you want to throw out the NIV, and the benefits it brings, then that's your loss, but don't try to paint me as some spreader of false doctrine because I see value in it. That's incredibly lazy and childish.

 

[Right Divider]

I'm not here to get into a shouting match with you. I'm here to discuss and debate with mature people who are earnestly looking for better understanding. If that's not you, feel free to respectfully disengage, and if you want to throw out the NIV, and the benefits it brings, then that's your loss, but don't try to paint me as some spreader of false doctrine because I see value in it. That's incredibly lazy and childish.

You came here stating false doctrine. Don't expect it to be ignored.

The gospel of the kingdom is about an earthly kingdom with Christ as king, plain and simple.

 

[Freedm]

No, you used the ONLY translation that botches Psalm 8 and Hebrews 2 to try to support your doctrine.

Assuming you meant "the NIV is the ONLY translation that uses them instead of he",you are wrong again. The following translations all use "them" instead of "he".

New International Version
You made them a little lower than the angels; you crowned them with glory and honor

New International Readers Version
You made them a little lower than the angels. You placed on them a crown of glory and honor.

Good News Translation
You made them for a little while lower than the angels; you crowned them with glory and honor,

Common English Bible
For a while you made them lower than angels. You crowned the human beings with glory and honor.

Expanded Bible
You made ·them [or him] ·a little [or for a little while] lower than the angels and crowned ·them [or him] with glory and honor.

New Century Version
You made them a little lower than the angels and crowned them with glory and honor.

New Living Translation
Yet for a little while you made them a little lower than the angels and crowned them with glory and honor.

Good News Translation
You made them for a little while lower than the angels; you crowned them with glory and honor,

New Revised Standard Version (all editions)
You have made them for a little while lower[a] than the angels; you have crowned them with glory and honour

New Living Translation
Yet for a little while you made them a little lower than the angels crowned them with glory and honor

And The CEV uses the word "us"

Contemporary English Version
You made us lower than the angels for a while. Yet you have crowned us with glory and honor.

 

[Freedm]

You came here stating false doctrine. Don't expect it to be ignored.

What I expect is the courtesy of a scriptural rebuttal in the case of disagreement. Simply shouting "YOU'RE WRONG!" adds nothing to the conversation. If I'm wrong, prove it, as I have done with you.

The gospel of the kingdom is about an earthly kingdom with Christ as king, plain and simple.

Too bad you have shown no interest whatsoever in understanding my position.

 

[Right Divider]

Assuming you meant "the NIV is the ONLY translation that uses them instead of he",you are wrong again. The following translations all use "them" instead of "he".

New International Version
You made them a little lower than the angels; you crowned them with glory and honor

New International Readers Version
You made them a little lower than the angels. You placed on them a crown of glory and honor.

Good News Translation
You made them for a little while lower than the angels; you crowned them with glory and honor,

Common English Bible
For a while you made them lower than angels. You crowned the human beings with glory and honor.

Expanded Bible
You made ·them [or him] ·a little [or for a little while] lower than the angels and crowned ·them [or him] with glory and honor.

New Century Version
You made them a little lower than the angels and crowned them with glory and honor.

New Living Translation
Yet for a little while you made them a little lower than the angels and crowned them with glory and honor.

Good News Translation
You made them for a little while lower than the angels; you crowned them with glory and honor,

New Revised Standard Version (all editions)
You have made them for a little while lower[a] than the angels; you have crowned them with glory and honour

New Living Translation
Yet for a little while you made them a little lower than the angels crowned them with glory and honor

And The CEV uses the word "us"

Contemporary English Version
You made us lower than the angels for a while. Yet you have crowned us with glory and honor.

Indeed, more bad "translations"... no doubt you find these to be highly credible.

 

[Right Divider]

What I expect is the courtesy of a scriptural rebuttal in the case of disagreement. Simply shouting "YOU'RE WRONG!" adds nothing to the conversation. If I'm wrong, prove it, as I have done with you.

I did NOT "simply shout YOU'RE WRONG". I showed you some scripture in its proper context.

Too bad you have shown no interest whatsoever in understanding my position.

I have no interest in false doctrine and the demeaning of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I'm not here to get into a shouting match with you. I'm here to discuss and debate with mature people who are earnestly looking for better understanding. If that's not you, feel free to respectfully disengage, and if you want to throw out the NIV, and the benefits it brings, then that's your loss, but don't try to paint me as some spreader of false doctrine because I see value in it. That's incredibly lazy and childish.

Maybe instead of trying compare English translations, you should consider what the Hebrew says, and then base your judgment on which English translation is more accurate.

The Hebrew uses singular nouns and verbs where the translations you cited above use plural words.

That makes them less accurate by default.

 

[Freedm]

Maybe instead of trying compare English translations, you should consider what the Hebrew says, and then base your judgment on which English translation is more accurate.

100%. The English translation is only a starting point. However, in this case the original text is Greek not Hebrew, but I'll assume that's what you meant.

The Hebrew uses singular nouns and verbs where the translations you cited above use plural words.

Again, assuming you meant Greek, can you link to a Lexicon you use where you find the singular pronouns in Hebrews 2:7.

 

[JudgeRightly]

100%. The English translation is only a starting point.

For basic learning, sure.

But if you're going to try to determine which form of a word (singular or plural) should be used, then the Hebrew/Greek should be your starting point.

However, in this case the original text is Greek not Hebrew, but I'll assume that's what you meant.

Psalm 8 was written in Hebrew originally, and is what I was referring to.

Then translated into Greek in the making of the Septuagint.

If anything, my post should have said Hebrew AND Greek, and not just Hebrew.

Again, assuming you meant Greek, can you link to a Lexicon you use where you find the singular pronouns in Hebrews 2:7.

Greek for the NT, yes.

But Hebrew for the OT.

Psalm 8:4

Singular, not plural.

Hebrews 2:7

Singular, not plural.

For comparison, Wescott-Hort:

7ηλαττωσας αυτον βραχυ τι παρ αγγελους δοξη και τιμη εστεφανωσας αυτον [και κατεστησας αυτον επι τα εργα των χειρων σου]

 

[Freedm]

Is that a mobile app? What's the name of the app?

 

[Tambora]

It doesn't change my question because that (yet) part is irrelevant to it. You said you believe Christ is King but not on David's throne (yet). So how do you distinguish between the two. How do you define "sitting on David's throne"?

David was anointed king long before he actually began to rule Israel.
The "throne" is about ruling as king, not just being a king.

Jeconiah (also called Jehoiachin and Coniah) was a king when he was taken away to Babylon, but he no longer ruled.

The risen Lord Jesus Christ has not yet ruled over Israel.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Is that a mobile app? What's the name of the app?

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.hagiostech.greekinterlinearbible