ECT Are all our righteousnesses filthy rags or not?

God's Truth

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The gospel is sent to those who do right, it is them that Jesus accepts and lives with.

James 4:6 But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."

John 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Jesus says there are people on the side of the truth and they listen to him: John 18:37 Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

The gospel is given to those who do right: Acts 13:26 "Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.

Jesus accepts those who do right: Acts 10:35 but that in every nation those who fear Him and live good lives are acceptable to Him.


So then, if you are proud, do right and humble yourself, then you can be saved.
 

Bradley D

Well-known member
Well, don't confuse yourself with an apostle who helped lay the foundation.

What exactly do you think you are suffering?

A world that does not believe. Family members. Jesus told us we would face these tribulations.

"…Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on, five in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law”…(Luke 12:51-53).
 

God's Truth

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A world that does not believe. Family members. Jesus told us we would face these tribulations.

"…Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on, five in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law”…(Luke 12:51-53).

Well that isn't exactly suffering as those who laid the foundation suffered for being an apostle.

The apostles faced beatings and jail and death daily.
 

God's Truth

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You are not suffering to the point of death.

Why are you trying to mock Jesus who says his works are light and easy?

How hard is it for you to repent of your sins and to forgive others?

Matthew 11:30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome,
 

God's Truth

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1 Peter 3:14
But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
 

Bradley D

Well-known member
You are not suffering to the point of death.

Why are you trying to mock Jesus who says his works are light and easy?

How hard is it for you to repent of your sins and to forgive others?

Matthew 11:30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome,

I did not say I was suffering unto the point of death. I am blessed by God who saved me from an alcoholic death over twenty-eight years ago. If you read the web site I sent you would know there are many Christians in this world who are suffering for their Faith. Now tell about how the light burden works for them. I believe in the Word of God. So I am asking how that works for them. I am still thinking on it.

No one can go through what our Lord Jesus went through. The Son of God innocent being crucified on the Cross for us. Therefore whatever Christians go through may never have such a burden.

I have repented of my sins and continue to amend my life. I ask for God's mercy and love everyday. I am blessed to have such a loving Father. I have forgiven and work at loving those who I am not to happy with over the death of my wife. But I must forgive and love. I also believe in not judging others for I know not what they go through. God is the Judge.
 

God's Truth

New member
I did not say I was suffering unto the point of death. I am blessed by God who saved me from an alcoholic death over twenty-eight years ago. If you read the web site I sent you would know there are many Christians in this world who are suffering for their Faith. Now tell about how the light burden works for them. I believe in the Word of God. So I am asking how that works for them. I am still thinking on it.

No one can go through what our Lord Jesus went through. The Son of God innocent being crucified on the Cross for us. Therefore whatever Christians go through may never have such a burden.

I have repented of my sins and continue to amend my life. I ask for God's mercy and love everyday. I am blessed to have such a loving Father. I have forgiven and work at loving those who I am not to happy with over the death of my wife. But I must forgive and love. I also believe in not judging others for I know not what they go through. God is the Judge.

I am so sad to hear that about your wife.

So are you just questioning how Jesus can say his works are light and easy and not burdensome, yet people have hard times in life?
 

genuineoriginal

New member
God established the sin offering because He never required sinless perfection.
Saying it doesn't make it so.

If you think I'm wrong then that's all well and good but don't simply make the claim, make the argument.
You believe God requires sinless perfection, but that requirement is not found in the Bible.

The closest you came here was to imply that there is a such thing as impure (i.e. imperfect) righteousness.
Who is to judge a person's righteousness?
It is not you, with your standard of sinless perfection.
It is God, Himself, who will judge according to His own standards for each of us.

2 Samuel 22:25
Therefore the Lord hath recompensed me according to my righteousness; according to my cleanness in his eye sight.



There are individual righteous actions that unrighteous people (i.e. unbelievers) can perform but that doesn't make them righteous in the sense of being blameless before God on Judgment Day.
According to God's own words (see the OP), He will not remember a person's wicked acts if the person has turned from wickedness to righteousness, and He will not remember a person's righteous acts if the person has turned from righteousness to wickedness.
That is the opposite of God requiring sinless perfection.

God has to grace you out for that level of righteousness to be attained
That doesn't make any sense.
I have no idea what you think "grace" has to be for you to make such a statement.

Grace is God finding you pleasing in His eyes.
God will not "grace you out" if He does not find you pleasing in His eyes.

Here are the things that will make you abhorrent in God's eyes:
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


If you are opposed to the law of God, you are "in the flesh" and cannot please God.

Romans 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

genuineoriginal

New member
True believers have been perfected forever and that perfection is not a result of anyone's own works.

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Heb.10:10,14).​
Is God's purpose for us to make us all a bunch of perfect clones, all alike?
That is what you are implying.


 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
You believe God requires sinless perfection, but that requirement is not found in the Bible.
Perhaps you are misunderstanding me.

I do not believe that any regular person has any ability to be sinlessly perfect except in the sense that Jesus' sinless perfection has been imputed to them.

But even though it isn't our perfection doesn't change the fact that perfection is indeed God's standard. Otherwise, there would have been no need for Jesus to live a perfect life and then offer His life in exchange for the imperfect lives of mankind.

Who is to judge a person's righteousness?
It is not you, with your standard of sinless perfection.
It is God, Himself, who will judge according to His own standards for each of us.

2 Samuel 22:25
Therefore the Lord hath recompensed me according to my righteousness; according to my cleanness in his eye sight.

Any relationship that God had with anyone prior to the cross was only made possible by God looking forward to the cross. David had no concept of God offering His Son on a cross for his sins but God certainly did. And so even though David's faith wasn't in Jesus' death specifically, it was still His death, while yet furture, that made David salvation possible.
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Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.​


According to God's own words (see the OP), He will not remember a person's wicked acts if the person has turned from wickedness to righteousness, and He will not remember a person's righteous acts if the person has turned from righteousness to wickedness.
That is the opposite of God requiring sinless perfection.
Of course!

Again, I do not say that regular people (i.e. people who are not Jesus) need to, or even can, live perfect lives. It is Jesus' perfection that makes grace possible.

That doesn't make any sense.
I have no idea what you think "grace" has to be for you to make such a statement.

Grace is God finding you pleasing in His eyes.
God will not "grace you out" if He does not find you pleasing in His eyes.
What?

That isn't grace, that's law! Grace is about God giving you something you didn't earn and that you don't deserve.
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Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.​



Besides that, I am hidden in Christ! Can Christ be displeasing in God's eyes?
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Colossians 3:3 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.​



Paul goes on from there to explain that BECAUSE these things are true, therefore don't do evil things and instead do righteousness. The point being that you have it backward. It isn't that we are pleasing in God's eyes because we refrain from sin but we refrain from sin because we are pleasing in God's eyes. More than being pleasing in God's eyes, we are in God Himself. He is our very life! For we have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer we who live but Christ lives in us, and the life we now live in the flesh we live by faith in the Son of God who loved us and gave Himself for us. (Gal. 2:20 - just a few pages prior to the Galatians 5 passage you quoted.)

If you are opposed to the law of God, you are "in the flesh" and cannot please God.

Romans 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Again, you have the entire point of the passage, and Paul's entire ministry backward! The very chapter you cite directly contradicts your doctrine...

The law is of the flesh!
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Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Ephesians 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.​



Notice the distinction Paul makes in Romans 8:2. The law of sin and death is the Law of Moses, the Ten Commandments, Circumcision, et al. were you were approved by God if you did good works. Now its just the exact opposite! We do good works because we are approved not in order to win that approval. We are approved when we believe, works come as result of salvation and are not requisit to it.
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Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Galatians 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?​



Thus, it is perfection that God requires and which only God Himself can meet and which He has met on our behalf and imputed to us.


Resting in Him,
Clete
 

genuineoriginal

New member
But even though it isn't our perfection doesn't change the fact that perfection is indeed God's standard

Saying it doesn't make it so.
Scripture does not support your idea that God's standard for us is sinless perfection.

The very fact that God instituted animal sacrifices for failure to follow His Law proves that God's standard is not sinless perfection.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Grace is about God giving you something you didn't earn and that you don't deserve.
That is a lie that has been taught to too many gullible Christians.

Grace is God deciding that He is so pleased with you that He wants to reward you for whatever you did that pleased Him.
You deserve God's reward according to God's standards, and He alone is able to say whether you pleased Him or not.

The Bible states very clearly what displeases God, so never, ever, teach that someone can rely on God's Grace when they are doing what displeases Him.

1 Corinthians 10:1-12
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.​


The Bible states very clearly what pleases God, so never, ever, teach that pleasing God has nothing to do with God's Grace and His rewards.

Exodus 33:17
17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.​

 

genuineoriginal

New member
We do good works because we are approved not in order to win that approval.
You have put the two errors into a single sentence, but still you do not understand the truth.

We cannot do good works in order to win God's approval.
When you are so arrogant that you think you can win God's approval by doing good works, you have failed.

We do not do good works because we are already have God's approval before we do the good works.
When you are so arrogant that you think you already have God's approval without doing any good works, you have failed.

Bob Enyart has it right: " Do right. Risk the consequences."

Doing what is right is not done for any other reason than that it is the right thing to do.
That is what righteousness is all about.

Your arrogance turns both doing good works and thinking you have God's approval into unrighteousness.

You can only win God's approval when you truly humble yourself.

Luke 18:13-14
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.​

 
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