ECT Are all our righteousnesses filthy rags or not?

Cntrysner

Active member
No they didn't.
Israel rebelled against God and did works of iniquity.

Daniel 9:5-6
5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:
6 Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.​


Give me a list of known biblical names that rebelled, are you saying all did or was there a remnant?
 

Cntrysner

Active member
You are ignorant and confused.


If you believed that, you would not reject the doctrine, you would not refuse the reproof, you would not deny the correction, and you would not rebel against the instruction in righteousness.


Ask God whether you can be saved when you refuse to humble yourself before Him and you refuse to obey Him.

You are the artful dodger. You believe in your works of righteousness (legalism) when they are fifthly rags. I say this to you so that you can come the knowledge of this truth....

Tit_3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Now twist it so you can keep your works of righteousness.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
You are the artful dodger. You believe in your works of righteousness (legalism) when they are fifthly rags.
You have not been paying any attention.
The only righteousnesses that are as filthy rags are the ones that are done by a righteous person that turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity.
They are "as" filthy rags because God refuses to remember them.

Ezekiel 18:24
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.​

 

God's Truth

New member
We do not love purely, sincerely, deeply from the heart until after we obey Jesus’ teachings. We do not know how to really love, until we love like Jesus loved us, and that comes from obeying and believing in him. We love better after the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit which comes through our obeying.

See 1 Peter 1:22; John 13:34; Romans 12:10; James 4:8; Hebrews 13:1; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 3:8; 1 Peter 4:8;


2 John 1:6 The love of which I am speaking consists in our living in obedience to God's commands. God's command is that you should live in obedience to what you all heard from the very beginning.

1 John 5:3 Love for God means obedience to His commands; and His commands are not irksome.
 

God's Truth

New member
The Bible says there are righteous people, but there are no righteous people who have not sinned at least once.

It is never ever a filthy rag to obey God.

To say such a thing comes from a misunderstanding of the scriptures.

It is love to obey God.

We receive the Spirit and life when you obey Jesus.

It is how we eat and drink Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit.
 

God's Truth

New member
There are righteous people, but no righteous people who have not sinned at least once.

Psalm 14:1-3; 53:1-3; and Ecclesiastes 7:20 teach us just that. Ecclesiastes SAYS there is not a RIGHTEOUS man who does what is right and NEVER SINS. In Ecclesiastes 7, Solomon tells us about wise men, righteous men, and about a man who pleases God. Solomon also tells us that he found one upright man among a thousand. The Bible tells us that there are people who want to do right.


We have life if we obey.

Jeremiah 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.


God loves us if we love Him by obeying Him.


Proverbs 8:17 I love those who love me,

John 14:21 The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him."

John 14:23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

John 16:27 For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came from God.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Yep. :thumb:


Not quite, absolute perfection is the leaven of the Pharisees that Jesus warned His followers about.

Here is God's standard:

Micah 6:8
8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?​

The commandments of the sin offering prove that God does not demand absolute perfection.


Yep. :thumb:


Because we sin, we need a redeemer, but God does not have a standard of perfection that He demands that we meet.


Yep. :thumb:
On this standard of perfection point, I think we are both right.

You are correct that God required simply that people "trust and obey" Him and He graced people out who did so but that was only ever possible because God was looking forward to Christ and His sacrifice. The sin offering is a picture of Christ, who not only died as an offering for sin but, prior to that, lived a perfectly sinless life which was what qualified Him to be that offering. Now we, who call upon Him and believe that God raised Him from the dead, are saved from our sin precisely because it is Christ's perfection that has been imputed to us. Thus, while God knows that we cannot meet it, His standard is indeed sinless perfection. The fact that He's the One Who had to meet that standard for us is proof enough of that. Otherwise, there would have been no need for God the Son to die.

Clete
 

Gary K

New member
Banned
I disagree. The metaphor is so 'you don't miss' the pertinent. While I'm not advocating erasing anything from our Lord where no jot or tiddle will disappear, I'm yet for being clear and concise in forums.

The entire passage of Revelation 3:15-20 is metaphorical. It's a larger metaphor with other metaphors inside it. To understand the meaning of the individual metaphors we must tease apart the entire metaphor. However, you seem very disinclined to actually understand the metaphor of gold inside the larger metaphor. In fact, you insist that teasing apart the metaphor is the opposite of clearness and conciseness. I view this from the exact opposite position. We cannot understand the meaning of the metaphor of gold clearly and concisely without teasing apart the entire metaphor. To me your objections are saying you really don't want to understand the passage.

As to your insistence on clearness and conciseness, I have to sort of chuckle at that. You insist upon it yet to explain your theology you must redefine the English language so that all means some, that sovereignty must mean micromanagement, that love means creating with the intent to kill, and righteousness is hedonism. I find that anything but clear and concise. I find it very tortured logic that requires jumping through a whole lot of self-contradictory hoops.... To me it makes your insistence on defining clearness and conciseness to mean not teasing apart the metaphor very strange indeed.
 

Gary K

New member
Banned
Not quite.
You are missing some key points.

There are righteous people and there are wicked people.
We can choose whether we will be righteous or whether we will be wicked.

There are only two destinations for people at the final judgment.
People will either be permanently destroyed in the lake of fire or people will enter into eternal life in the kingdom of God.
There is no everlasting torment for people who are permanently destroyed in the lake of fire, they just die and will never be raised up again.

Salvation is entering into eternal life in the kingdom of God.
None of us has the power to give ourselves eternal life, so we need a savior who can give us eternal life.
None of us has the ability to enter into the kingdom of God, so we need a savior who can grant us entrance into the kingdom of God.

The wicked will not enter into the kingdom of God, they will not be given eternal life, they will be permanently destroyed in the lake of fire.

The righteous whose names are written in the book of the living will be given eternal life and enter into the kingdom of God, but the righteous whose names are not written in the book of the living will be permanently destroyed in the lake of fire along with the wicked.

The entire purpose of the book of the living is to list the people who would be given eternal life and would be granted entrance into the kingdom of God in the world to come.

Before Jesus sacrificed Himself, God was the only being to determine who would have their names written in the book of the living and who would have their names blotted out.
God had specific requirements for whose names were to be written in the book of the living.

Malachi 3:16-18
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.​


After Jesus humbled Himself unto death on the cross, Jesus was found worthy and was given all authority over the book of the living.
Jesus also has specific requirements for whose names are to be written in the book of the living.

Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​



Paul tried to make it clear that the standards for wickedness has never changed and that the wicked would never enter into the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.​



Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.​



Ephesians 5:3-6
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.​



Paul had difficulty explaining the difference between true righteousness based on faithfully serving God and the false righteousness of the Pharisees that is based on keeping the letter of the Law.

Philippians 3:9-11
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.​


I don't think you and I have any real basis for a discussion. Our underlying assumptions are so radically different that it makes real communication on any issue arising from those basic assumptions impossible for we both completely reject the other person's basic assumptions. For instance, your assumption that humanity does not have a fallen sinful nature is something I can never accept. That you think you are able to decide what is true and what is false in the Bible is another major sticking point. I don't believe any human being has that ability. Why? Because it is saying two things that I find extremely arrogant. One, you consider yourself smarter than God. Two, you consider God to be so small that He is incapable of protecting/preserving His own messages to mankind. I reject those assertions out of hand. I serve a much larger God than that. Thus, we have no real points of understanding for all differences in understand between us arise from these points.
 

Lon

Well-known member
The entire passage of Revelation 3:15-20 is metaphorical. It's a larger metaphor with other metaphors inside it. To understand the meaning of the individual metaphors we must tease apart the entire metaphor. However, you seem very disinclined to actually understand the metaphor of gold inside the larger metaphor. In fact, you insist that teasing apart the metaphor is the opposite of clearness and conciseness. I view this from the exact opposite position. We cannot understand the meaning of the metaphor of gold clearly and concisely without teasing apart the entire metaphor. To me your objections are saying you really don't want to understand the passage.

As to your insistence on clearness and conciseness, I have to sort of chuckle at that. You insist upon it yet to explain your theology you must redefine the English language so that all means some, that sovereignty must mean micromanagement, that love means creating with the intent to kill, and righteousness is hedonism. I find that anything but clear and concise. I find it very tortured logic that requires jumping through a whole lot of self-contradictory hoops.... To me it makes your insistence on defining clearness and conciseness to mean not teasing apart the metaphor very strange indeed.

No, not that insistent, just telling you my issue. Most will read you here, see 'gold' and think 'precious metal' without digging further in or understanding what you are really saying and thus lose/become disinterested. At that point, the audience is lost. While the Lord Jesus Christ specifically used metaphor only 'for those who have ears to hear' I'm not my Savior. I try to avoid what is vague, though the man without the Spirit cannot perceive even that. Is it a problem? :nono: It was just a suggestion and you are free to ignore it. In Him -Lon :carryon:
 

genuineoriginal

New member
You are correct that God required simply that people "trust and obey" Him and He graced people out who did so
You are doing well so far.
but that was only ever possible because God was looking forward to Christ and His sacrifice. The sin offering is a picture of Christ, who not only died as an offering for sin but, prior to that, lived a perfectly sinless life which was what qualified Him to be that offering.
Then you blew it by trying to rewrite Biblical history to meet your own ideas.
Now we, who call upon Him and believe that God raised Him from the dead, are saved from our sin precisely because it is Christ's perfection that has been imputed to us.
Paul says that it is Abraham's faith that was responsible for God imputing righteousness to him.
Not one word about perfection being imputed.
Thus, while God knows that we cannot meet it, His standard is indeed sinless perfection.
No, sinless perfection is the leaven of the Pharisees that Jesus warned against.

God established the sin offering because He never required sinless perfection.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
I don't think you and I have any real basis for a discussion. Our underlying assumptions are so radically different that it makes real communication on any issue arising from those basic assumptions impossible for we both completely reject the other person's basic assumptions.
I agree.

For instance, your assumption that humanity does not have a fallen sinful nature is something I can never accept.
There are a lot of people like you that are completely unwilling to accept the truth.

That you think you are able to decide what is true and what is false in the Bible is another major sticking point. I don't believe any human being has that ability.
Why do you try to deny me the ability to read and understand the Bible?

Why? Because it is saying two things that I find extremely arrogant. One, you consider yourself smarter than God.
I consider myself to have the ability to reason that God gave me.

Two, you consider God to be so small that He is incapable of protecting/preserving His own messages to mankind.
Throughout the scriptures it is shown that God's message to humanity has always ben perverted by people like you who consider themselves to be religiously superior to others.

I reject those assertions out of hand. I serve a much larger God than that.
I serve the God that is found in the Bible, who is not the "much larger god" that you mistakenly think exists.

Thus, we have no real points of understanding for all differences in understand between us arise from these points.
:idunno:
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
You are doing well so far.

Then you blew it by trying to rewrite Biblical history to meet your own ideas.

Paul says that it is Abraham's faith that was responsible for God imputing righteousness to him.
Not one word about perfection being imputed.

No, sinless perfection is the leaven of the Pharisees that Jesus warned against.

God established the sin offering because He never required sinless perfection.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

If you think I'm wrong then that's all well and good but don't simply make the claim, make the argument.

The closest you came here was to imply that there is a such thing as impure (i.e. imperfect) righteousness.

There are individual righteous actions that unrighteous people (i.e. unbelievers) can perform but that doesn't make them righteous in the sense of being blameless before God on Judgment Day. God has to grace you out for that level of righteousness to be attained, as you conceded at the first of your post.

If perfection wasn't required then where's the need for grace?

Further, Jesus is morally perfect. Indeed, He is righteousness incarnate! And it is His righteousness that been imputed to us. Why would God impute some sort of imperfect righteousness to us in the first place?

Now, that's not to imply that we, as saved believers in Christ, don't do things that are wrong, that hurt ourselves and those around us. We absolutely do and will continue to do so until our flesh has been redeemed but where there is no law, sin is not imputed. Our sin, past, present and future is covered by the cleansing blood of Christ and we are washed white as snow and made totally pure (i.e. perfectly sinless) before God.

Clete

P.S. I didn't cite the scripture references because I'm short on time and because I think you're aware of them anyway.
 
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God's Truth

New member
What you should learn from the scripture is there is none righteous but Christ, even now your righteousness is still filthy rags. So, tell me what it is that you have done to claim righteousness. Your righteousness does appear yellow.

Their righteous works were the purification works of the law.

Those righteous works which included BLOOD offerings became as filthy bloody rag offerings because the people who gave the blood offering were not really sorry for their sins.
 

God's Truth

New member
I cannot work my way into heaven. However, I believe in living a Chrisitan Life. I give all glory to my Lord Jesus and God the Father. I take no credit whatsoever.

The only works that will not do anything are the purification works.

The purification works of the law used to justify.

Jesus has a lot of easy and light spiritual works that give life for us to do.

We have to stay humble, and have a forgiving heart.

We have to abstain from evil things and train ourselves to distinguish what is good and what is bad.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Not one word about perfection being imputed.

True believers have been perfected forever and that perfection is not a result of anyone's own works.

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Heb.10:10,14).​
 

God's Truth

New member
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

There is not one who is righteous WHO HAS NOT EVER SINNED EVEN ONCE, like JESUS who NEVER SINNED.

Paul is quoting the old scriptures that PLAINLY SAY there ARE RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE---BUT NONE who have not sinned at least once.

You must know there are many righteous people the BIBLE tells us about.

So then, study more deeply so that you can see the truth that there ARE RIGHTEOUS people, but none who have not sinned at least once.

Mark 4:24 “Consider carefully what you hear,” he continued. “With the measure you use, it will be measured to you—and even more.
 

Bradley D

Well-known member
The only works that will not do anything are the purification works.

The purification works of the law used to justify.

Jesus has a lot of easy and light spiritual works that give life for us to do.

We have to stay humble, and have a forgiving heart.

We have to abstain from evil things and train ourselves to distinguish what is good and what is bad.

Easy and light?
 

God's Truth

New member
True believers have been perfected forever and that perfection is not a result of anyone's own works.

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Heb.10:10,14).​

Right, we are made perfect by obeying Jesus' teachings.


Hebrews 10:10 and by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy

Hebrews 11:40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Hebrews 12:13 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

Hebrews 2:11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.

John 17:19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified


Jesus makes righteous people perfect.
Righteous people are those who do what God says to do.


Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Ephesians 5:26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,



After we are made perfect and holy by his blood, we are to live up to that.



Philippians 3:16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.


1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Titus 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;

1 Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holyin all manner of conversation;

1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

1 Peter 1:2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
 
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