ECT Are all our righteousnesses filthy rags or not?

[Gary K]

"Gold" is a metaphor for what? Of course you can keep 'gold' in your discussion, just as one does when discussing the streets of heaven, but such is a metaphor for "that which is treasured and precious." I'm simply saying drop the metaphor, not at length, but in discussion where that which Gold is compared to, is the focus of the brief scope and intent of short posts on forum. :e4e:

There's a massive difference between the concept of making a man more precious than fine gold and the pavement on the streets of the New Jerusalem. The first speaks to what God wants to do in and for us, and the second just describes pavement in heaven. The way I look at it is if Jesus thought it was important enough to use the metaphor then the metaphor Itself has to be pretty important. The minute we humans start to discard something, i.e. leave it behind, as no big deal is the very moment we should be really digging into the entire concept because we're missing something. We are puny little finite beings with finite minds darkened by sin trying to understand the depths of the words of a truly righteous infinite God. Meaning that we are going to really struggle to see exactly what God has in mind as His thoughts are much higher and greater than our ability to understand all that he means. That makes the metaphor itself important and worthy of study.

 

[Cntrysner]

I wonder why Clete holds to his own personal goodness/righteousness when the bile clears teaches there is none good. It appears he robs God as the source of all goodness in us by the power of His Spirit working in us. If it is true God is the source of all goodness and God works in us then we must give the credit to God not ourselves.

Psa_14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Mat_19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Rom_3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Paul clearly explains that he personally can do no good thing.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Any good that we do is God working in us to do His will and anything that is pleasing in His sight. We do good works but we can not take the credit because it is God's good work in us through Christ. Christ gets the credit and all the glory!

Heb_13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

 

[genuineoriginal]

What is your interpretation of this scripture concerning righteousness?...

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

The chapter begins with a brief mention of what every believer should already know so well that it shouldn't need to be mentioned again.
Your posts show that you have never been taught the foundation of belief that comes from repentance of sin and of an active living faith towards God.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

There is a difference between what happens when a righteous person sins and what happens when a wicked person sins.
The righteous person will repent and then continue his walk of faith after sinning, but the wicked will not repent and will not resume his walk of faith.

Proverbs 24:16 16 For a just [righteous] man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.​

There are some people who believe in the twin heresies of Original Sin (aka Total Depravity) and Once Saved Always Saved (aka Preservation of the Saints).
Those people think that the only way a person can be made righteous is by an act of Jesus and that once the person is made righteous then that person can never become wicked again.

When a person is truly righteous by their own faith, the act of Jesus that ensures a person's salvation is writing that person's name with the righteous in the book of the living.
A person is not blotted out from the book of the living because that person sins once, but a righteous person who chooses to become a wicked person's name will be blotted out because of habitual faithlessness and lawlessness.

[MENTION=4345]genuineoriginal[/MENTION], you believe that after you are regenerated in water and then commit a sin you must repent of that sin, am I correct?

No, you are not correct.
You assume that I believe that there is a particular act that a person can do that will automatically wash away any sin they commit.
There is not.
The only way to ensure that you your sins will be forgiven is to maintain a close relationship with the Father and the Son who can forgive your sins.
You are not able to maintain a close relationship with the Father and the Son by treating baptism as if it is a magic spell you can cast at will.
Baptism is symbolic of you your renouncing of your previous sinfulness in an effort to ensure that your thoughts are on how your sin caused a rift in your relationship with the Father and the Son.

If I am correct

We already established that you are not correct.

how to you receive forgiveness? Do you need to be baptized in water again? Do you repent and then excuse yourself?

1 John 1:9 9 If we confess our sins, he [God] is faithful and just [righteous] to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​

Why would God forgive your sins when you confess?
Because God is seeking for righteous people who love Him and whose primary desire is to be with Him, both in the here and now and also in the world to come.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The OP believes in his works of righteousness, one is water baptismal regeneration does he not?

You seem to have missed the mark on that one.

His argument is based on self righteousness and I responded to his premise.

You responded to the echos of the false doctrines you were taught, not to my premise.

All that a man can work or do is nothing more than filthy rags.

False.
The "filthy rags" verse is about a group of people who turned from being righteous into sin.
When they were righteous people, God saw their righteousnesses as good.
When they turned from righteousness and became wicked, all the righteousness they had before became as worthless as filthy rags.
God has chosen to only see the righteousnesses of the righteous and to only see the wickedness of the wicked.

Would you agree that any righteous work belongs to Christ and only Christ should get the credit?

Of course I would not agree, since that is not what the Bible teaches.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I was trying to get you to understand that if you are a sinner your righteous works are stained with sin and unacceptable to God.

That is a small part of what the Bible teaches, but where you seem to go off the rails is when you fail to recognize the difference between the righteous and the wicked.

Ezekiel 18:21-24 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.​

When the righteous person becomes one of the wicked, God will not even look at all the righteousness that person had done.
When the wicked person becomes one of the righteous, God will not even look at all the sins that person had done.

 

[genuineoriginal]

If all our righteousness is not filthy rags, why do we need a Savior? We ought to be able to justify ourselves through our own goodness if our personal righteousness is good enough.

Not quite.
You are missing some key points.

There are righteous people and there are wicked people.
We can choose whether we will be righteous or whether we will be wicked.

There are only two destinations for people at the final judgment.
People will either be permanently destroyed in the lake of fire or people will enter into eternal life in the kingdom of God.
There is no everlasting torment for people who are permanently destroyed in the lake of fire, they just die and will never be raised up again.

Salvation is entering into eternal life in the kingdom of God.
None of us has the power to give ourselves eternal life, so we need a savior who can give us eternal life.
None of us has the ability to enter into the kingdom of God, so we need a savior who can grant us entrance into the kingdom of God.

The wicked will not enter into the kingdom of God, they will not be given eternal life, they will be permanently destroyed in the lake of fire.

The righteous whose names are written in the book of the living will be given eternal life and enter into the kingdom of God, but the righteous whose names are not written in the book of the living will be permanently destroyed in the lake of fire along with the wicked.

The entire purpose of the book of the living is to list the people who would be given eternal life and would be granted entrance into the kingdom of God in the world to come.

Before Jesus sacrificed Himself, God was the only being to determine who would have their names written in the book of the living and who would have their names blotted out.
God had specific requirements for whose names were to be written in the book of the living.

Malachi 3:16-18 16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name. 17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. 18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.​

After Jesus humbled Himself unto death on the cross, Jesus was found worthy and was given all authority over the book of the living.
Jesus also has specific requirements for whose names are to be written in the book of the living.

Matthew 7:21 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

Paul tried to make it clear that the standards for wickedness has never changed and that the wicked would never enter into the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.​

Galatians 5:19-21 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.​

Ephesians 5:3-6 3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.​

Paul had difficulty explaining the difference between true righteousness based on faithfully serving God and the false righteousness of the Pharisees that is based on keeping the letter of the Law.

Philippians 3:9-11 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

The words say "OUR righteousness are as filthy rags," which is speaking of a person's personal righteousness.

Not quite, look at the verse in context.

The people who speaking are the twelve tribes of Israel, God's chosen people, who had erred from God's ways that God had commanded them to follow.

Isaiah 63:17-19;Isaiah 64:5-7 17 O Lord, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance. 18 The people of thy holiness have possessed it but a little while: our adversaries have trodden down thy sanctuary. 19 We are thine: thou never barest rule over them; they were not called by thy name. 5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved. 6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. 7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.​

The statement of "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" is being made by the children of Israel about the consequences of them turning away from the commandments God gave them.
It is not a general statement about all people everywhere.
It is not a statement of any person's personal righteousness.
It is a statement about the national guilt of the children of Israel.

 

[genuineoriginal]

It's a denial of the fall in Eden. Adam and Eve committed only one sin according to the Bible. And that one sin changed the course of human history.

Original Sin is a heretical doctrine that makes God a liar by saying we all bear the iniquity of Adam.

Here is what God said:

Ezekiel 18:20 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

Your entire post, the way it was worded, pointed to works as the basis for an Isrealite/Jew to be seen as righteous. To offer a sacrifice was an act of faith, not of working to attain salvation.

The salvation of the children of Israel from Egypt included them being required to perform an act of faith.

Exodus 12:22-23 22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning. 23 For the Lord will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

in reality there is only One issue we need to address, that God before the foundation of the world choose all who believe in Christ for reward.

That is a false doctrine.

 

[genuineoriginal]

It wasn't to you in particular, however context IS Isaiah.

The context: You dirty a rag, it needs to be washed.

No, the context is not Isaiah. It is Revelation 3.

No, the context is Isaiah, since the verses under discussion were written hundreds of years before Revelation was written and were about a different group of people than the people in Revelation 3.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I wonder what percentage of the bible that Cntrysner is required to ignore to maintain his completely asinine doctrine that teaches "Man can do no good works"?

I am guessing it is more than 90%, but that is just a guess.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Psa_14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Here is the context of the verse you are using:

Psalm 14:2-5 2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord. 5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.​

The Psalm says that during one of the times God looked down, He did not find any that called upon the Lord.
This particular time was not like some other time when there were an entire generation of righteous people that did call upon the Lord.

There being no one found that does good at one particular time can not be extrapolated to mean that there are never any that do good.

 

[Lon]

There's a massive difference between the concept of making a man more precious than fine gold and the pavement on the streets of the New Jerusalem. The first speaks to what God wants to do in and for us, and the second just describes pavement in heaven. The way I look at it is if Jesus thought it was important enough to use the metaphor then the metaphor Itself has to be pretty important. The minute we humans start to discard something, i.e. leave it behind, as no big deal is the very moment we should be really digging into the entire concept because we're missing something. We are puny little finite beings with finite minds darkened by sin trying to understand the depths of the words of a truly righteous infinite God. Meaning that we are going to really struggle to see exactly what God has in mind as His thoughts are much higher and greater than our ability to understand all that he means. That makes the metaphor itself important and worthy of study.

I disagree. The metaphor is so 'you don't miss' the pertinent. While I'm not advocating erasing anything from our Lord where no jot or tiddle will disappear, I'm yet for being clear and concise in forums.

 

[Cntrysner]

Here is the context of the verse you are using:

Psalm 14:2-5 2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord. 5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.​

The Psalm says that during one of the times God looked down, He did not find any that called upon the Lord.
This particular time was not like some other time when there were an entire generation of righteous people that did call upon the Lord.

There being no one found that does good at one particular time can not be extrapolated to mean that there are never any that do good.

Who were alive during the time and who are the generation of God, was David alive at that time and did he include himself as none good?. Even Jesus said that he was not good is that not a standard for all before concerning good? Jesus said only God is good because he Jesus had not yet in His flesh done of the will of the Father which was to lay down His life and give all honor to God for any good. If Jesus declared he was not good then who before are after can declare any good.

Mar_10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Mat_19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

If you want to be good you must keep all the commandments and not miss even one. Do you do so?

 

[Cntrysner]

I said...in reality there is only One issue we need to address, that God before the foundation of the world choose all who believe in Christ for reward.

That is a false doctrine.

Tell me then about your works of righteousness if I hold a false doctrine.

Give me your interpretation of the following scripture.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[Cntrysner]

Not quite, look at the verse in context.

The people who speaking are the twelve tribes of Israel, God's chosen people, who had erred from God's ways that God had commanded them to follow.

Isaiah 63:17-19;Isaiah 64:5-7 17 O Lord, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance. 18 The people of thy holiness have possessed it but a little while: our adversaries have trodden down thy sanctuary. 19 We are thine: thou never barest rule over them; they were not called by thy name. 5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved. 6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. 7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.​

The statement of "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" is being made by the children of Israel about the consequences of them turning away from the commandments God gave them.
It is not a general statement about all people everywhere.
It is not a statement of any person's personal righteousness.
It is a statement about the national guilt of the children of Israel.

Your salvation is in commandments which is works of righteousness and even God's chosen people, Israel, could not do. You are in the same boat as they before the cross and will not avoid the flood when righteousness is revealed at His coming.

Act_13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
Rom_11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

If it is personal righteousness it is self righteousness you hold to for salvation.

 

[Cntrysner]

I am guessing it is more than 90%, but that is just a guess.

This is a unusual agreement concerning good works. Clete and you genuineoriginal need to have a in-depth conversation about good works. Ask Clete if he believes in the commandment of the good work of water baptism for remission of sins in Acts 2:38.

 

[JudgeRightly]

This is a unusual agreement concerning good works. Clete and you genuineoriginal need to have a in-depth conversation about good works. Ask Clete if he believes in the commandment of the good work of water baptism for remission of sins in Acts 2:38.

Cntry, is it a good thing to do to love God?

 

[Cntrysner]

Cntry, is it a good thing to do to love God?

Amen, it is the heart of men God desires.

1Jn_4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.