ECT Are all our righteousnesses filthy rags or not?

[genuineoriginal]

Are all our righteousnesses filthy rags or not?

When we look at the verse that phrase comes from in context, we see that there are two different groups of people being compared to each other, not a single group that represents all of humanity.
I highlighted the two different groups in different colors, the righteous in YELLOW and the wicked in GREEN:

Isaiah 64:4-7 4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him. 5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved. 6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. 7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.​

So, how did the righteousnesses of the second group become like filthy rags?
The righteous turned away from their righteousness and sinned (Isaiah 64:5), which means that all the righteousness they did when they were righteous will no longer count as righteousness.
By sinning, the righteous became the wicked and lost all claim to their righteousnesses, meaning those righteousnesses are now as useful as "filthy rags" in God's sight.

Ezekiel 18:24 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.​

The wicked group was part of the righteous group before they sinned.
The wicked can change groups and be in the righteous group again by repenting.
By repenting, the wicked can have their righteousnesses counted and they will no longer be as useless as "filthy rags" in God's sight.

Ezekiel 18:21-22 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.​

 

[Cntrysner]

Are all our righteousnesses filthy rags or not?

When we look at the verse that phrase comes from in context, we see that there are two different groups of people being compared to each other, not a single group that represents all of humanity.
I highlighted the two different groups in different colors, the righteous in YELLOW and the wicked in GREEN:

Isaiah 64:4-7 4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him. 5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved. 6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. 7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.​

So, how did the righteousnesses of the second group become like filthy rags?
The righteous turned away from their righteousness and sinned (Isaiah 64:5), which means that all the righteousness they did when they were righteous will no longer count as righteousness.
By sinning, the righteous became the wicked and lost all claim to their righteousnesses, meaning those righteousnesses are now as useful as "filthy rags" in God's sight.

Ezekiel 18:24 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.​

The wicked group was part of the righteous group before they sinned.
The wicked can change groups and be in the righteous group again by repenting.
By repenting, the wicked can have their righteousnesses counted and they will no longer be as useless as "filthy rags" in God's sight.

Ezekiel 18:21-22 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.​

What you should learn from the scripture is there is none righteous but Christ, even now your righteousness is still filthy rags. So, tell me what it is that you have done to claim righteousness. Your righteousness does appear yellow.

 

[Bradley D]

I cannot work my way into heaven. However, I believe in living a Chrisitan Life. I give all glory to my Lord Jesus and God the Father. I take no credit whatsoever.

 

[Clete]

What you should learn from the scripture is there is none righteous but Christ, even now your righteousness is still filthy rags. So, tell me what it is that you have done to claim righteousness. Your righteousness does appear yellow.

So then refute his argument!

 

[Clete]

I cannot work my way into heaven. However, I believe in living a Chrisitan Life. I give all glory to my Lord Jesus and God the Father. I take no credit whatsoever.

Why?

I'm not trying to say you're wrong. It's just that those four sentences, rather than being the whole thing, seem more like they should be the introduction to something more substantive than just a quick statement of your personal opinion.

For example...

We are told that we will be given rewards in Heaven based on what we've done during our physical lives. Do you intend to refuse these rewards? If not, then isn't, "I take no credit whatseover.", overstating your case?

 

[Cntrysner]

So then refute his argument!

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

 

[Cntrysner]

Why?

I'm not trying to say you're wrong. It's just that those four sentences, rather than being the whole thing, seem more like they should be the introduction to something more substantive than just a quick statement of your personal opinion.

For example...

We are told that we will be given rewards in Heaven based on what we've done during our physical lives. Do you intend to refuse these rewards? If not, then isn't, "I take no credit whatseover.", overstating your case?

The rewards we collect belong to Christ. All righteousness is Christ working in us.

I believe the day this sinner meets Christ I will fall on my knees and give Him all the credit.

 

[Poly]

The rewards we collect belong to Christ. All righteousness is Christ working in us.

I believe the day this sinner meets Christ I will fall on my knees and give Him all the credit.

If I give my son a baseball for his birthday, is it my baseball or his? He might say "thank you" and appreciate that he would not have it if it weren't for me. I can accept his thanks and appreciation and tell him "you're welcome" but the baseball is his, not mine. Otherwise it wouldn't be a gift.

 

[Clete]

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Are you incapable of making an actual argument or are you just lazy or simply not interested in do so or what?

The point wasn't for you to find three verses to quote out of their context. The point was for you to stop being a waste of bandwidth, apply yourself and produce something that is actually interested and worthwhile both for you to produce and for us to read.

 

[Cntrysner]

Are you incapable of making an actual argument or are you just lazy or simply not interested in do so or what?

The point wasn't for you to find three verses to quote out of their context. The point was for you to stop being a waste of bandwidth, apply yourself and produce something that is actually interested and worthwhile both for you to produce and for us to read.

You need to address the scripture I provided since you challenged me first when I did not address you at the beginning, meanwhile I will stand on your righteousness is filthy rags. So, educate me and I will give you the honor that you deserve.

 

[Cntrysner]

If I give my son a baseball for his birthday, is it my baseball or his? He might say "thank you" and appreciate that he would not have it if it weren't for me. I can accept his thanks and appreciation and tell him "you're welcome" but the baseball is his, not mine. Otherwise it wouldn't be a gift.

There is no gift that a true receiver can claim ownership even if he possesses it for a time because the receiver should know he did not earn the gift, and if the receiver accepts the gift he must pass it on or give it back to the will of a giver, it's called heritage. If the revived doesn't abide by this rule of gifting then all will be lost.

Edit: We should not be children.

 

[Cntrysner]

If you receive the gift of eternity that is in Christ and someone sees the gift in you then you should immediately educate the seer that it is not truly yours, proclaim that the gift is Christ's alone and you will do well for the learning of the potential seer lest he stubble in self righteousness.

Edit: Christ considered the Father in such a way. The gift is God's alone and only He deserves the glory as the author and finisher.

 

[Cntrysner]

My father in law left a sizable amount and I am incharge of his willed. I know why he willed it to my wife and me being the head of part of his family must pass it on and to honor him for it I intend to leave more and if I don't, I did not honor my father in law's original intent. Even though what he willed is mine now by law as head, I truly can never claim it and will by all my power honor the intent of his will to his lineage and if I don't what kind of man am I if I don't add to it? I took ownership and gave some gifts from it to my adult children but with this stipulation.... use it and enjoy it but you should pass it on. Honor the original giver with all as men should do.

 

[Clete]

You need to address the scripture I provided since you challenged me first when I did not address you at the beginning, meanwhile I will stand on your righteousness is filthy rags. So, educate me and I will give you the honor that you deserve.

So you want to start by ignoring Genuine Original's argument and now you want me to sanction your having done so by engaging your non-argument?

That isn't going to happen.

Genuine Original has made an argument. A good one at that. I'm not saying he's right or wrong but if you want an argument to respond to, then read the opening post and refute the arguments that he made.

 

[Poly]

There is no gift that a true receiver can claim ownership even if he possesses it for a time because the receiver should know he did not earn the gift, and if the receiver accepts the gift he must pass it on or give it back to the will of a giver, it's called heritage. If the revived doesn't abide by this rule of gifting then all will be lost.

So when Jesus gives the gift of salvation, we should give it back to Him? I think he'd say, "That's silly. You keep it. I don't need it. I'm perfect and don't need my own salvation to save myself."

We should not be children.

"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God." Romans 8:16

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." John 1:12

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:26

"Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God." Matthew 5:9

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Romans 8:14

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Are all our righteousnesses filthy rags or not?

When we look at the verse that phrase comes from in context, we see that there are two different groups of people being compared to each other, not a single group that represents all of humanity.
I highlighted the two different groups in different colors, the righteous in YELLOW and the wicked in GREEN:

Isaiah 64:4-7
5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.

So the "we" spoken of in the first part of verse five is an entirely different group of people who are also referred to as "we" later in the same verse?

Verse 5 is better understood with the following translation:

"You come to the help of those who gladly do right, who remember your ways. But when we continued to sin against them, you were angry. How then can we be saved?" (Isa.64:5; NIV).​

Even though the first part of this verse speaks of them who "do right" their personal righteousness is as filthy rags because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

 

[Cntrysner]

So when Jesus gives the gift of salvation, we should give it back to Him? I think he'd say, "That's silly. You keep it. I don't need it. I'm perfect and don't need my own salvation to save myself."

Yes, Christ was the only perfect man but a man of the flesh no more and in that respect Christ needs nothing for righteousness, we of flesh are not righteous unto death.. Christ has no need for Himself now concerning salvation as he did when he was flesh, Christ by His death fulfilled the will of the Father as sacrifice for sin. It is finished concerning salvation. Christ of the flesh gave all possession of righteousness to the glory of the Father and did not claim Himself as righteous.

Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

Did Jesus ever say, my righteousness, even unto His death. Did not He count Himself as lowly even in His end? Christ did not glorify Himself concerning righteousness, Christ Jesus fulfilled the will of the Father and always pointed to the Father as righteous.

"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God." Romans 8:16

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." John 1:12

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:26

"Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God." Matthew 5:9

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Romans 8:14

Yes we are His children and sons and daughters indeed but we have received an inheritance that by death is passed to us as the mediator concerning any type family. No longer children that drink milk but possessors that need meat.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Paul included himself in this statement.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Give me a scripture where Paul spoke of his righteous.

 

[Cntrysner]

So you want to start by ignoring Genuine Original's argument and now you want me to sanction your having done so by engaging your non-argument?

That isn't going to happen.

Genuine Original has made an argument. A good one at that. I'm not saying he's right or wrong but if you want an argument to respond to, then read the opening post and refute the arguments that he made.

The OP can respond to me if he wants.



I want you to respond on his behalf and yours.

To you...there's none righteous, no not one and that includes you.

You seem to have no response worth listening to so far. I'm a old curmudgeon and so are you, I can relate and look forward to it when you give me all you got. It's a good thing from my perspective and I'm sure as always I will learn something from you.

 

[genuineoriginal]

What you should learn from the scripture is there is none righteous but Christ, even now your righteousness is still filthy rags.

We either learn to understand scripture for what it says, or we rely on the doctrines of man to teach you how to misunderstand scripture.
I have made my choice and you have made yours.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I cannot work my way into heaven.

People can always work their way into the lake of fire, but no one can work their way into the kingdom.