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Are all our righteousnesses filthy rags or not?

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  • Originally posted by Clete View Post
    You are correct that God required simply that people "trust and obey" Him and He graced people out who did so
    You are doing well so far.
    Originally posted by Clete View Post
    but that was only ever possible because God was looking forward to Christ and His sacrifice. The sin offering is a picture of Christ, who not only died as an offering for sin but, prior to that, lived a perfectly sinless life which was what qualified Him to be that offering.
    Then you blew it by trying to rewrite Biblical history to meet your own ideas.
    Originally posted by Clete View Post
    Now we, who call upon Him and believe that God raised Him from the dead, are saved from our sin precisely because it is Christ's perfection that has been imputed to us.
    Paul says that it is Abraham's faith that was responsible for God imputing righteousness to him.
    Not one word about perfection being imputed.
    Originally posted by Clete View Post
    Thus, while God knows that we cannot meet it, His standard is indeed sinless perfection.
    No, sinless perfection is the leaven of the Pharisees that Jesus warned against.

    God established the sin offering because He never required sinless perfection.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ffreeloader View Post
      I don't think you and I have any real basis for a discussion. Our underlying assumptions are so radically different that it makes real communication on any issue arising from those basic assumptions impossible for we both completely reject the other person's basic assumptions.
      I agree.

      Originally posted by ffreeloader View Post
      For instance, your assumption that humanity does not have a fallen sinful nature is something I can never accept.
      There are a lot of people like you that are completely unwilling to accept the truth.

      Originally posted by ffreeloader View Post
      That you think you are able to decide what is true and what is false in the Bible is another major sticking point. I don't believe any human being has that ability.
      Why do you try to deny me the ability to read and understand the Bible?

      Originally posted by ffreeloader View Post
      Why? Because it is saying two things that I find extremely arrogant. One, you consider yourself smarter than God.
      I consider myself to have the ability to reason that God gave me.

      Originally posted by ffreeloader View Post
      Two, you consider God to be so small that He is incapable of protecting/preserving His own messages to mankind.
      Throughout the scriptures it is shown that God's message to humanity has always ben perverted by people like you who consider themselves to be religiously superior to others.

      Originally posted by ffreeloader View Post
      I reject those assertions out of hand. I serve a much larger God than that.
      I serve the God that is found in the Bible, who is not the "much larger god" that you mistakenly think exists.

      Originally posted by ffreeloader View Post
      Thus, we have no real points of understanding for all differences in understand between us arise from these points.
      Learn to read what is written.

      _____
      The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
      ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

      Comment


      • Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
        You are doing well so far.

        Then you blew it by trying to rewrite Biblical history to meet your own ideas.

        Paul says that it is Abraham's faith that was responsible for God imputing righteousness to him.
        Not one word about perfection being imputed.

        No, sinless perfection is the leaven of the Pharisees that Jesus warned against.

        God established the sin offering because He never required sinless perfection.
        Saying it doesn't make it so.

        If you think I'm wrong then that's all well and good but don't simply make the claim, make the argument.

        The closest you came here was to imply that there is a such thing as impure (i.e. imperfect) righteousness.

        There are individual righteous actions that unrighteous people (i.e. unbelievers) can perform but that doesn't make them righteous in the sense of being blameless before God on Judgment Day. God has to grace you out for that level of righteousness to be attained, as you conceded at the first of your post.

        If perfection wasn't required then where's the need for grace?

        Further, Jesus is morally perfect. Indeed, He is righteousness incarnate! And it is His righteousness that been imputed to us. Why would God impute some sort of imperfect righteousness to us in the first place?

        Now, that's not to imply that we, as saved believers in Christ, don't do things that are wrong, that hurt ourselves and those around us. We absolutely do and will continue to do so until our flesh has been redeemed but where there is no law, sin is not imputed. Our sin, past, present and future is covered by the cleansing blood of Christ and we are washed white as snow and made totally pure (i.e. perfectly sinless) before God.

        Clete

        P.S. I didn't cite the scripture references because I'm short on time and because I think you're aware of them anyway.
        Last edited by Clete; November 9th, 2019, 06:24 AM.
        sigpic
        "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
          What you should learn from the scripture is there is none righteous but Christ, even now your righteousness is still filthy rags. So, tell me what it is that you have done to claim righteousness. Your righteousness does appear yellow.
          Their righteous works were the purification works of the law.

          Those righteous works which included BLOOD offerings became as filthy bloody rag offerings because the people who gave the blood offering were not really sorry for their sins.
          Oh how I love the Word of God!

          Do not just read the word do it.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bradley D View Post
            I cannot work my way into heaven. However, I believe in living a Chrisitan Life. I give all glory to my Lord Jesus and God the Father. I take no credit whatsoever.
            The only works that will not do anything are the purification works.

            The purification works of the law used to justify.

            Jesus has a lot of easy and light spiritual works that give life for us to do.

            We have to stay humble, and have a forgiving heart.

            We have to abstain from evil things and train ourselves to distinguish what is good and what is bad.
            Oh how I love the Word of God!

            Do not just read the word do it.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
              Not one word about perfection being imputed.
              True believers have been perfected forever and that perfection is not a result of anyone's own works.
              "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Heb.10:10,14).

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
                Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

                Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
                Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
                There is not one who is righteous WHO HAS NOT EVER SINNED EVEN ONCE, like JESUS who NEVER SINNED.

                Paul is quoting the old scriptures that PLAINLY SAY there ARE RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE---BUT NONE who have not sinned at least once.

                You must know there are many righteous people the BIBLE tells us about.

                So then, study more deeply so that you can see the truth that there ARE RIGHTEOUS people, but none who have not sinned at least once.

                Mark 4:24 “Consider carefully what you hear,” he continued. “With the measure you use, it will be measured to you—and even more.
                Oh how I love the Word of God!

                Do not just read the word do it.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                  The only works that will not do anything are the purification works.

                  The purification works of the law used to justify.

                  Jesus has a lot of easy and light spiritual works that give life for us to do.

                  We have to stay humble, and have a forgiving heart.

                  We have to abstain from evil things and train ourselves to distinguish what is good and what is bad.
                  Easy and light?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Bradley D View Post
                    Easy and light?
                    That is what Jesus says. Don't you believe it?

                    Matthew 11:30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
                    Oh how I love the Word of God!

                    Do not just read the word do it.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                      True believers have been perfected forever and that perfection is not a result of anyone's own works.
                      "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Heb.10:10,14).
                      Right, we are made perfect by obeying Jesus' teachings.


                      Hebrews 10:10 and by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

                      Hebrews 10:14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy

                      Hebrews 11:40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

                      Hebrews 12:13 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

                      Hebrews 2:11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.

                      John 17:19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified


                      Jesus makes righteous people perfect.
                      Righteous people are those who do what God says to do.


                      Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

                      Ephesians 5:26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,



                      After we are made perfect and holy by his blood, we are to live up to that.



                      Philippians 3:16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

                      Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.


                      1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

                      Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

                      Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

                      Titus 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;

                      1 Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holyin all manner of conversation;

                      1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

                      1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

                      2 Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

                      Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

                      1 Peter 1:2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
                      Oh how I love the Word of God!

                      Do not just read the word do it.

                      Comment


                      • The gospel is sent to those who do right, it is them that Jesus accepts and lives with.

                        James 4:6 But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."

                        John 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

                        Jesus says there are people on the side of the truth and they listen to him: John 18:37 Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

                        The gospel is given to those who do right: Acts 13:26 "Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.

                        Jesus accepts those who do right: Acts 10:35 but that in every nation those who fear Him and live good lives are acceptable to Him.


                        So then, if you are proud, do right and humble yourself, then you can be saved.
                        Oh how I love the Word of God!

                        Do not just read the word do it.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                          That is what Jesus says. Don't you believe it?

                          Matthew 11:30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
                          Yes, I believe the word of Jesus Christ. Now how does that fit in with we must carry His cross and and suffer?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Bradley D View Post
                            Yes, I believe the word of Jesus Christ. Now how does that fit in with we must carry His cross and and suffer?
                            Well, don't confuse yourself with an apostle who helped lay the foundation.

                            What exactly do you think you are suffering?
                            Oh how I love the Word of God!

                            Do not just read the word do it.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                              Well, don't confuse yourself with an apostle who helped lay the foundation.

                              What exactly do you think you are suffering?
                              A world that does not believe. Family members. Jesus told us we would face these tribulations.

                              "…Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on, five in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law”…(Luke 12:51-53).

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bradley D View Post
                                A world that does not believe. Family members. Jesus told us we would face these tribulations.

                                "…Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on, five in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law”…(Luke 12:51-53).
                                Well that isn't exactly suffering as those who laid the foundation suffered for being an apostle.

                                The apostles faced beatings and jail and death daily.
                                Oh how I love the Word of God!

                                Do not just read the word do it.

                                Comment

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