ECT Are all our righteousnesses filthy rags or not?

Clete

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Saying it doesn't make it so.
Scripture does not support your idea that God's standard for us is sinless perfection.

The very fact that God instituted animal sacrifices for failure to follow His Law proves that God's standard is not sinless perfection.

On the contrary, I went to some trouble and spent quite a lot of time to not only make an argument but prpvided no less than twelve seperate citations of scripture to support that argument.

You chose to effectively ignore it all and simply repeat your position.

It's too bad that you aren't interested in doing anything but stating your person opinions. You're not as stupid as most around here. Equally lazy though and thus equally a waste of time.

Believe what you want. You clearly are going to no matter what anyone says to you.

Good bye.
 

God's Truth

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Saying it doesn't make it so.
Scripture does not support your idea that God's standard for us is sinless perfection.

The very fact that God instituted animal sacrifices for failure to follow His Law proves that God's standard is not sinless perfection.

Well, God does want us to have sinless perfection.

The old law had people put to death for some sins that are now for us to find mercy in the new covenant through Jesus, if we are sorry and repent.
 

God's Truth

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Matthew 5:43-48

Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


We are perfect like God says to be if we love our enemies.
Paul shows here that there are perfect people. Let us walk in perfection that is Jesus; that is done by obeying him.

Philippians 3:15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

15All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16Only let us live up to what we have already attained.


We are made perfect by repenting and having Jesus' blood wash us clean, and now we are to live up to that perfection we are given in Christ.
We are to obey what the scriptures say how to live in order to please God, to be imitators of God, to aim for perfection, to purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit.



1 Thessalonians 4:1 Finally, brothers, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more.

Ephesians 5:1 Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children


2 Corinthians 13:11 Finally, brothers, good-by. Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.

2 Corinthians 13:9 We are glad whenever we are weak but you are strong; and our prayer is for your perfection.

Matthew 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

Colossians 1:28 We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ.
 

Clete

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Matthew 5:43-48

Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


We are perfect like God says to be if we love our enemies.
Paul shows here that there are perfect people. Let us walk in perfection that is Jesus; that is done by obeying him.

Philippians 3:15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

15All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16Only let us live up to what we have already attained.


We are made perfect by repenting and having Jesus' blood wash us clean, and now we are to live up to that perfection we are given in Christ.
We are to obey what the scriptures say how to live in order to please God, to be imitators of God, to aim for perfection, to purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit.



1 Thessalonians 4:1 Finally, brothers, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more.

Ephesians 5:1 Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children


2 Corinthians 13:11 Finally, brothers, good-by. Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.

2 Corinthians 13:9 We are glad whenever we are weak but you are strong; and our prayer is for your perfection.

Matthew 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

Colossians 1:28 We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ.

Terrific try GT! But in case you hadn't noticed, quoting scripture in this thread is about as effective as shooting spit balls at a battleship.
 

God's Truth

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Which crimes would those be?

If a person murdered another, or committed adultery they were put to death and separated from God there were no animal sacrifices for those things.

If a person does those things as a believer in Christ they might still be put to death by their Government, but they still can have a relationship with God.
 

Clete

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I'm not sure what you mean. I hope you don't feel that way about me.

No, not you.

I was just saying that you've made a terrific argument that will have exactly no effect whatsoever in persuading anyone on this thread who disgagrees with the point that you have biblical proven.

It was just me putting voice to my frustration at the lack of intellectual honesty on this website.
 

Clete

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If a person murdered another, or committed adultery they were put to death and separated from God there were no animal sacrifices for those things.

If a person does those things as a believer in Christ they might still be put to death by their Government, but they still can have a relationship with God.

Well, this is mostly correct but the criminal (muderer) on the cross next to Christ was forgiven because he repented and so even before the Dispensation of Grace, while the law of Moses was still fully in effect, there was hope for even the worst of sinners. (Psalms 86:5)

Clete
 

God's Truth

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No, not you.

I was just saying that you've made a terrific argument that will have exactly no effect whatsoever in persuading anyone on this thread who disgagrees with the point that you have biblical proven.

It was just me putting voice to my frustration at the lack of intellectual honesty on this website.

You have been debating for more years than I have and when I started years ago, I never would have thought it would be like that, but it is. I believe though that I cause some to really wonder.
 

God's Truth

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Well, this is mostly correct but the criminal (muderer) on the cross next to Christ was forgiven because he repented and so even before the Dispensation of Grace, while the law of Moses was still fully in effect, there was hope for even the worst of sinners. (Psalms 86:5)

Clete

Jesus taught the new law, he is the grace. There was someone greater than Moses there.

Matthew 12:6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here.

Matthew 12:41
The men of Nineveh will stand at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now One greater than Jonah is here.

Matthew 12:42
The queen of the south will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and now One greater than Solomon is here.

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Jesus taught the new law, he is the grace. There was someone greater than Moses there.

Matthew 12:6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here.

Matthew 12:41
The men of Nineveh will stand at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now One greater than Jonah is here.

Matthew 12:42
The queen of the south will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and now One greater than Solomon is here.

​​​​​​​

Grace is very much in the Old Testament.

Gen_6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Gen 19:18 And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my Lord:
Gen 19:19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:

Exo 33:12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.
Exo 33:13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.

Exo 33:16 For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.


AND MANY MORE.
 

God's Truth

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Grace is very much in the Old Testament.

Gen_6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Gen 19:18 And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my Lord:
Gen 19:19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:

Exo 33:12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.
Exo 33:13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.

Exo 33:16 For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.


AND MANY MORE.

Sounds like you don't know what grace Jesus brought.
 

Clete

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Jesus taught the new law, he is the grace.
No He didn't and no He isn't.

In other words, things are not so because you say them, GT.

For one thing, the gospels never once records Jesus having ever uttered the word "grace" during His Earthly ministry and in addition to that, we are told explicitly that Jesus was born under the law (Gal. 4:4) and that He taught the law...

Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.


Matthew 19:16Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him,“Why do you call Me good? [f]No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”


Notice in that Matthew 19 passage, Jesus tells this person that he is to follow the Ten Commandments in order to be saved!

There was someone greater than Moses there.
True but not relevant to the point.

The point is that murders were saved under the law just like anyone else was. The murderer on the cross is just one example. David and Moses are probably the most obvious two examples in the Old Testament of men who were guilty of murder and who were obviously forgiven and saved believers, one of which was called God's friend, no less.

Clete
 

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No He didn't and no He isn't.
You don't think Jesus is the one who is the grace?

God's Son came and that is not grace?


John 1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

No Paul yet only Jesus.


In other words, things are not so because you say them, GT.
I prove my beliefs from the Bible and I am not repeating what a choice pastor has told me to think and say.

So if you say something it is true because you say so?

For one thing, the gospels never once records Jesus having ever uttered the word "grace" during His Earthly ministry and in addition to that, we are told explicitly that Jesus was born under the law (Gal. 4:4) and that He taught the law...
Sounds like something you are repeating from a false teacher., because Jesus is grace and his coming to earth is grace.
Jesus was born under the law the LAW WAS ABOUT JESUS.
The law was a shadow of Jesus.
Do you know that scripture?


Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
Well do you think Jesus should have taught that they should not have obeyed the commands of God as given to Moses?
Matthew 19:16Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him,“Why do you call Me good? [f]No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”


Notice in that Matthew 19 passage, Jesus tells this person that he is to follow the Ten Commandments in order to be saved!
Everyone still has to obey the ten commandments; except I will say that obeying the Sabbath is just to believe and obey Jesus because special days are now nothing.

True but not relevant to the point.
Of course it is relevant. You preach that Jesus was in submission to Moses and wasn't there to do anything but preach what Moses taught.
Jesus is greater than Moses and IS WHAT MOSES TAUGHT. Moses taught a shadow, but Jesus IS the PERSON WHO MADE THAT SHADOW.
What is your shadow doing? You tell people to look at your shadow and not at you? Your shadow does what you do, not the other way around.
Jesus came to make a new covenant.

The point is that murders were saved under the law just like anyone else was.
No such thing as a murderer being saved under the law.

The murderer on the cross is just one example.
No such thing as an unrepentant murderer being saved.
No such thing.
Repent or perish that is what the Lord says.

David and Moses are probably the most obvious two examples in the Old Testament of men who were guilty of murder and who were obviously forgiven and saved believers, one of which was called God's friend, no less.

Clete

Moses did not kill someone the same circumstance as David. AND, David would not have been saved if he did not beg to be forgiven. David being forgiven for murder by repenting of it is a glimpse of the new covenant God would make one day when Jesus came and died. Jesus is light and there are no shadows in light.
 

Clete

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You don't think Jesus is the one who is the grace?
There is no such thing as "one who is the grace".

That is not a Christian concept. In fact, it is very likely meaningless.

Whether that is the case or not, it certainly is not a biblical phrase or anything that the bible calls Jesus.

God's Son came and that is not grace?
I didn't say that but then neither did you.

The point being that I am responding to what you say, not whatever it is that you think you mean. I can't read you mind.

John 1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

No Paul yet only Jesus.
Funny how Jesus and His followers went around preaching the gospel without ever having uttered the word grace then, wouldn't you say?

Look, anything God has to do with human being is ultimately based on grace. Even the law was undergirded by grace because no one can follow the law perfectly and so it's no surprise to find the concept of grace throughout the law but that isn't at all the same thing as the Dispensation of Grace where salvation comes by grace through faith alone apart from the works of the law. (Romans 3)

I prove my beliefs from the Bible and I am not repeating what a choice pastor has told me to think and say.

So if you say something it is true because you say so?
What, are you new around here?

The point was that you showing up and declaring something as fact doesn't make it so. The passages you quoted didn't say anything like what you declared. In fact the phrase "Jesus is the grace" isn't found anywhere in the bible nor is there any phrase similar to it.

If you want to make an argument then make it, is the point. Don't just show up and declare something as though everyone is going to agree because you said it.

Sounds like something you are repeating from a false teacher., because Jesus is grace and his coming to earth is grace.
Jesus is not grace!

Jesus came because of grace and His coming facilitates grace and makes it possible and Paul's Gospel of Grace is based on what Jesus did at the cross and on His resurrection and so if you're making some sort of figure of speech that attempts to say all of that in one phrase then okay fine but don't blame me for rejecting a phrase that not ten Christians in the whole history of Christianity have ever uttered.

The point being, say what you mean not what you think everyone ought to be able to figure out. I cannot read your mind.

Jesus was born under the law the LAW WAS ABOUT JESUS.
The law was a shadow of Jesus.
Do you know that scripture?
I can just about guarantee you that I know it better than you do.

Well do you think Jesus should have taught that they should not have obeyed the commands of God as given to Moses?
Of course He should have! The law was still fully in effect and remained in effect until God cut Israel off. And that's not an accidental use of words there, by the way. Israel, the Circumcision was cut off. The symmetry of God's word is astounding.

Everyone still has to obey the ten commandments; except I will say that obeying the Sabbath is just to believe and obey Jesus because special days are now nothing.
If you allow yourself to be placed under the law, Christ will profit you nothing.

Do you know that scripture?

Of course it is relevant. You preach that Jesus was in submission to Moses and wasn't there to do anything but preach what Moses taught.
Jesus is greater than Moses and IS WHAT MOSES TAUGHT. Moses taught a shadow, but Jesus IS the PERSON WHO MADE THAT SHADOW.
What is your shadow doing? You tell people to look at your shadow and not at you? Your shadow does what you do, not the other way around.
Jesus came to make a new covenant.
There's clearly a lot packed into what you've said here and probably 99% of it is right but that just isn't the point and it is not relevant to the point of whether murderers and other such criminals could be saved under the law. Flat out not relevant to that point - period.

No such thing as a murderer being saved under the law.
See? Now why do you do this sort of stupid stuff!

Didn't you just get through telling me that you prove your beliefs from the Bible?

I give you no less than three separate examples of murderers who were saved and this is your response...

No such thing as an unrepentant murderer being saved.
No such thing.
Repent or perish that is what the Lord says.
There's no such thing as unrepentant sinner being saved, murderer or otherwise.

Move the goal posts much?

Moses did not kill someone the same circumstance as David.
What does that have to do with it?

Moses murdered that Egyptian - period. There was no trial, no witnesses testimony to convict the Egyptian of any crime and whether he was guilty or not, Moses did not have authority to take the man's life. Moses murdered him by any definition of murder you want to conjure up!

AND, David would not have been saved if he did not beg to be forgiven.
So what?

First of all, you don't know that and even if it were so, David was not only guilty of murder but of adultery and not only was he forgiven because he repented but God called him friend!

Moreover, Moses and David aren't the only capital criminals saved under the law. Rahab was a harlot and was not only forgiven but was placed in the lineage of Christ! (Matthew 1:5)

David being forgiven for murder by repenting of it is a glimpse of the new covenant God would make one day when Jesus came and died. Jesus is light and there are no shadows in light.
Look, you need to keep your eye on the ball here. The whole reason this issue came up is because you implied that murders (and presumably other capital criminals) could not be saved under the law and that is flatly false as I have now proven.

Clete
 

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There is no such thing as "one who is the grace".

That is not a Christian concept. In fact, it is very likely meaningless.
It is demeaning to lessen Christ's coming to Paul and say he taught something else.

Whether that is the case or not, it certainly is not a biblical phrase or anything that the bible calls Jesus.


I didn't say that but then neither did you.

The point being that I am responding to what you say, not whatever it is that you think you mean. I can't read you mind.


Funny how Jesus and His followers went around preaching the gospel without ever having uttered the word grace then, wouldn't you say?
I gave you scripture in the gospel.

Look, anything God has to do with human being is ultimately based on grace. Even the law was undergirded by grace because no one can follow the law perfectly and so it's no surprise to find the concept of grace throughout the law but that isn't at all the same thing as the Dispensation of Grace where salvation comes by grace through faith alone apart from the works of the law. (Romans 3)


What, are you new around here?

The point was that you showing up and declaring something as fact doesn't make it so. The passages you quoted didn't say anything like what you declared. In fact the phrase "Jesus is the grace" isn't found anywhere in the bible nor is there any phrase similar to it.

If you want to make an argument then make it, is the point. Don't just show up and declare something as though everyone is going to agree because you said it.


Jesus is not grace!
Jesus is the grace, and he is the love and the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.


Jesus came because of grace and His coming facilitates grace and makes it possible and Paul's Gospel of Grace is based on what Jesus did at the cross and on His resurrection and so if you're making some sort of figure of speech that attempts to say all of that in one phrase then okay fine but don't blame me for rejecting a phrase that not ten Christians in the whole history of Christianity have ever uttered.

The point being, say what you mean not what you think everyone ought to be able to figure out. I cannot read your mind.


I can just about guarantee you that I know it better than you do.


Of course He should have! The law was still fully in effect and remained in effect until God cut Israel off. And that's not an accidental use of words there, by the way. Israel, the Circumcision was cut off. The symmetry of God's word is astounding.


If you allow yourself to be placed under the law, Christ will profit you nothing.

Do you know that scripture?


There's clearly a lot packed into what you've said here and probably 99% of it is right but that just isn't the point and it is not relevant to the point of whether murderers and other such criminals could be saved under the law. Flat out not relevant to that point - period.
It is relevant because we are talking about the law and it doesn't say anything but death for murderers.


See? Now why do you do this sort of stupid stuff!

Didn't you just get through telling me that you prove your beliefs from the Bible?

I give you no less than three separate examples of murderers who were saved and this is your response...
Moses accidentally killed someone.
David was the only one who murdered.
Who is the third person?
There's no such thing as unrepentant sinner being saved, murder or otherwise.

Move the goal posts much?


What does that have to do with it?

Moses murdered that Egyptian - period. There was no trial, no witnesses testimony to convict the Egyptian of any crime and whether he was guilty or not, Moses did not have authority to take the man's life. Moses murdered him by any definition of murder you want to conjure up!
It is not the same as murder.

So what?

First of all, you don't know that and even if it were so, David was not only guilty of murder but of adultery and not only was he forgiven because he repented but God called him friend!
David was guilty of murder.

14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.


Moreover, Moses and David aren't the only capital criminals saved under the law. Rahab was a harlot and was not only forgiven but was placed in the lineage of Christ! (Matthew 1:5)
Rahab couldn't continue to be a prostitute.


Look, you need to keep your eye on the ball here. The whole reason this issue came up is because you implied that murders (and presumably other capital criminals) could not be saved under the law and that is flatly false as I have now proven.

Clete

A person under the law who murders was put to death.


Leviticus 24:17 "'Anyone who takes the life of a human being is to be put to death.
 
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Clete

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It is demeaning to lessen Christ's coming to Paul and say he taught something else.
No it isn't!

Christ did entirely teach something complete correct, totally right and entirely different than what Paul taught which was also completely correct, totally right and entirely new (kept secret since the world began.)
`
Romans 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began


I gave you scripture in the gospel.
Which ignores the point!

Jesus is the grace, and he is the love and the Spirit.
That's it!

You've been cornered so now's the time for you to stop debating and start closing your mind, closing your eyes and just start repeating whatever it is you want to believe over and over again until I leave and then you can tell yourself you won the debate.

BORING!!!

It is relevant because we are talking about the law and it doesn't say anything but death for murderers.
Are you reading my posts?

Remember Moses who murdered the Egyptian and then wrote every book in the bible that contains the Law of Moses!

Remember David who committed the capital crime of adultery and then had the woman's husband murdered to cover it up and then, after he repented, became a man after God's own heart and was called God's friend.

Sounds to me like the bible has quite a lot more to say about murderers that just death.

Moses accidentally killed someone.
No, he did not!

He attacked the man and he died as a result. Whether he started the attack with the intent to kill him or not (which he totally did), the result was murder and the law that we are talking about would have put him to death for it.

David was the only one who murdered.
You understand that this single sentence destroys your entire doctrine on this point. Why do you persist?

Who is the third person?
The criminal on the cross next to Christ was a murderer, or at least he was very likely so.

The word used to describe the criminals crucified with Christ is λῃστής. The literal translation is "robber" which is why some English translations use the word "thief" but the normal word for thief is κλέπτης and it doesn't mean the same thing. The latter is a simple thief, like a pick pocket or other petty thief which would not have warranted a death sentence of any sort and certainly not a crucifixion. The word λῃστής which is used in Matthew and Mark, denotes a violent form of robbery. It is used by Jesus in Luke 10:30...
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Luke 10:30 Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.​


Further, Barabbas was called called a κλέπτης in John 18:40...
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John 18:40 Then they all cried again, saying, “Not this Man, but Barabbas!” Now Barabbas was a robber.​


And we know for a fact that Barabbas was more than a mere thief because Mark tells us...
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Mark 15:7 And there was one named Barabbas, who was chained with his fellow rebels; they had committed murder in the rebellion.​


And since Jesus took Barabbas' place on the cross, it seems likely that the three were connected with eachother and that the criminals on the cross were those "fellow rebels" which were chained with Barabbas.

Lastly, the biblical account itself tells us that even if it wasn't murder per se, whatever their offense was, it was worthy of death by the criminal's own confession...
`
Luke 23:39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.”​

Note the Jesus did not rebuke the criminal and state the he was being punished unjustly which He could have easily done. What He did say, however, was that this man who just confessed himself guilty of a capital crime was to be with Him in Paradise that very day.

It is not the same as murder.
Is this an example of how you argue your doctrine from scripture?

Let's just read the passage, shall we?...
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Exodus 2:11 Now it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out to his brethren and looked at their burdens. And he saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his brethren. 12 So he looked this way and that way, and when he saw no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand. 13 And when he went out the second day, behold, two Hebrew men were fighting, and he said to the one who did the wrong, “Why are you striking your companion?”

14 Then he said, “Who made you a prince and a judge over us? Do you intend to kill me as you killed the Egyptian?”

So Moses feared and said, “Surely this thing is known!” 15 When Pharaoh heard of this matter, he sought to kill Moses. But Moses fled from [b]the face of Pharaoh and dwelt in the land of Midian; and he sat down by a well.

So we have Moses checking to see if anyone is looking and then kill someone and then hiding the body and then freaking out when he figures out that someone knows and then the authorities want to put him to death for it.​


Sounds a whole lot like first degree, premeditated murder to me, GT!

By what line of reasoning are you calling it anything else?



David was guilty of murder.

14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
Exactly and so I ask again, why do you persist with this doctrine?

Rahab couldn't continue to be a prostitute.
That isn't the point! The point is that she was guilty of a crime with the exact same punishment as murder! The law puts harlots to death upon the testimony of two or three witnesses just as it does murderers.

A person under the law who murders was put to death.
Yeah, so what?

While there is life there is hope! If a man repents before he is put to death, then God saves him. He is still put to death by the law but we aren't talking about what happens to his body but about what happens to his soul. That's not too hard to understand, right?

Leviticus 24:17 "'Anyone who takes the life of a human being is to be put to death.
Amen!

And that wasn't only true then, it ought to be true today! If it were, there'd be far fewer murderers, far fewer dead people and likely far fewer unbelievers to boot!

God's criminal justice system isn't about where someone's soul ends up. A human judge does not send anyone to Hell, only God does that. Criminal justice is about having a civil society in which it is the criminal that live in fear and not the law abiding citizen.
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Romans 13:3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.​



Clete
 

God's Truth

New member
No it isn't!

It is demeaning because you make Jesus coming as the Savior of the world teaching the new covenant and saying but Paul came and taught something better.

Christ did entirely teach something complete correct, totally right and entirely different than what Paul taught which was also completely correct, totally right and entirely new (kept secret since the world began.)

What Jesus taught when he walked the earth was FOR ALL, WHOMEVER, EVERYONE, and his words are forever. THAT is what God says in John.

That is what is said about Jesus when he walked the earth.

Romans 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
You saying it is PAUL'S gospel is embarrassing.
So according to you, Paul calls it his gospel and not Jesus' gospel?

Paul calls it Christ's gospel and God's gospel and our gospel!

Which ignores the point!
Nothing I am telling you ignores the point, unless you are the one ignoring it.


That's it!

You've been cornered so now's the time for you to stop debating and start closing your mind, closing your eyes and just start repeating whatever it is you want to believe over and over again until I leave and then you can tell yourself you won the debate.

BORING!!!

I proved with scripture that Jesus IS GRACE, LOVE, and SPIRIT.


2 Corinthians 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.


There is nothing comparable to the ONCE AND FOR ALL, not even Paul.

Are you reading my posts?
You made a mistake about the third murderer; and, Moses was NOT a murderer as David was.
Remember Moses who murdered the Egyptian and then wrote every book in the bible that contains the Law of Moses!
The law spoke of God as given to Moses.

Remember David who committed the capital crime of adultery and then had the woman's husband murdered to cover it up and then, after he repented, became a man after God's own heart and was called God's friend.

Sounds to me like the bible has quite a lot more to say about murderers that just death.
David begged for forgiveness and was an example of what the new covenant would be like for others.

No, he did not!

He attacked the man and he died as a result. Whether he started the attack with the intent to kill him or not (which he totally did), the result was murder and the law that we are talking about would have put him to death for it.
Moses saw a man beating people and wanted to stop him for it. How do you not see the difference between that and what David did?


You understand that this single sentence destroys your entire doctrine on this point. Why do you persist?


The criminal on the cross next to Christ was a murderer, or at least he was very likely so.

The word used to describe the criminals crucified with Christ is λῃστής. The literal translation is "robber" which is why some English translations use the word "thief" but the normal word for thief is κλέπτης and it doesn't mean the same thing. The latter is a simple thief, like a pick pocket or other petty thief which would not have warranted a death sentence of any sort and certainly not a crucifixion. The word λῃστής which is used in Matthew and Mark, denotes a violent form of robbery. It is used by Jesus in Luke 10:30...
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Luke 10:30 Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.​






Further, Barabbas was called called a κλέπτης in John 18:40...
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John 18:40 Then they all cried again, saying, “Not this Man, but Barabbas!” Now Barabbas was a robber.​






And we know for a fact that Barabbas was more than a mere thief because Mark tells us...
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Mark 15:7 And there was one named Barabbas, who was chained with his fellow rebels; they had committed murder in the rebellion.​






And since Jesus took Barabbas' place on the cross, it seems likely that the three were connected with eachother and that the criminals on the cross were those "fellow rebels" which were chained with Barabbas.

Lastly, the biblical account itself tells us that even if it wasn't murder per se, whatever their offense was, it was worthy of death by the criminal's own confession...
`
Luke 23:39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.”​





Note the Jesus did not rebuke the criminal and state the he was being punished unjustly which He could have easily done. What He did say, however, was that this man who just confessed himself guilty of a capital crime was to be with Him in Paradise that very day.

God says there is sin when there is a lot of words.

Look at all that you said instead of just admitting you were wrong.

You gave a lot of words, and words in another language too.

Is this an example of how you argue your doctrine from scripture?

Let's just read the passage, shall we?...
`
Exodus 2:11 Now it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out to his brethren and looked at their burdens. And he saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his brethren. 12 So he looked this way and that way, and when he saw no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand. 13 And when he went out the second day, behold, two Hebrew men were fighting, and he said to the one who did the wrong, “Why are you striking your companion?”

14 Then he said, “Who made you a prince and a judge over us? Do you intend to kill me as you killed the Egyptian?”

So Moses feared and said, “Surely this thing is known!” 15 When Pharaoh heard of this matter, he sought to kill Moses. But Moses fled from [b]the face of Pharaoh and dwelt in the land of Midian; and he sat down by a well.

So we have Moses checking to see if anyone is looking and then kill someone and then hiding the body and then freaking out when he figures out that someone knows and then the authorities want to put him to death for it.​






Sounds a whole lot like first degree, premeditated murder to me, GT!

By what line of reasoning are you calling it anything else?

Uriah was a good man and the soldier was not.

David murdered to cover up sin.

Moses did it to stop a violent man.

Moses did it before the law as given to him from God.

David did it after having the Holy Spirit and knowing the law.

No matter what you try to say, look at what the law says about murderers.

That is what I'm talking about.


Exactly and so I ask again, why do you persist with this doctrine?


That isn't the point! The point is that she was guilty of a crime with the exact same punishment as murder! The law puts harlots to death upon the testimony of two or three witnesses just as it does murderers.
She wasn't under the law yet.

Yeah, so what?

While there is life there is hope! If a man repents before he is put to death, then God saves him. He is still put to death by the law but we aren't talking about what happens to his body but about what happens to his soul. That's not too hard to understand, right?

Before Jesus, a person went to hell or to the place where Abraham was.

It does matter.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
It is demeaning because you make Jesus coming as the Savior of the world teaching the new covenant and saying but Paul came and taught something better.
Different isn't necessarily better but I'd have to agree that it is, in fact, better because the law, which was in our way, has been taken out of the way. The Law, which had a ministry of death, has ended in so far as righteousness is concerned. How is that not better?

Jesus is still the One who accomplished that but that's beside the point. That point being that Jesus didn't preach it and neither did anyone else until Paul.

What Jesus taught when he walked the earth was FOR ALL, WHOMEVER, EVERYONE, and his words are forever. THAT is what God says in John.
Look, you can pound the pulpit all you want but it won't change the fact that there is no one in the bible other than Paul that says anything similar to "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Jesus didn't teach it, Peter, James and John didn't teach it and neither did anyone else other than the Apostle Paul who was given that gospel not by men but by direct divine revelation and was sent, again by revelation, to the Twelve in order to explain his gospel to them!

Now those are the biblical facts (part of them, anyway). You can choose to believe them and formulate your doctrine around them or you can choose to be emotionally motivated away from those fact because they for some reason make you think they somehow demean Jesus Christ, Who was the One who told Paul what to peach, where to preach it and who to preach it to in the first place.

That is what is said about Jesus when he walked the earth.
What Jesus said (taught) while on Earth was said to Israel.
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Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”​


You saying it is PAUL'S gospel is embarrassing.
So according to you, Paul calls it his gospel and not Jesus' gospel?
If it is embarassing to you then you really do need to stop claiming to have formed your doctrine based on what the bible says because Paul is the one who repeatedly calls it "my gospel" an inf fact states explicitly that men will be judged by his gospel...
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Romans 2:12For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.


Romans 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began


2 Timothy 2:8Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained.​

Paul calls it Christ's gospel and God's gospel and our gospel!
He referes to it in several ways but that doesn't change the fact that he repeatedly referred to it as "my gospel", as I have just proven.

Nothing I am telling you ignores the point, unless you are the one ignoring it.
Saying it doesn't make it so. It's as if you don't understand what the point even is.

I proved with scripture that Jesus IS GRACE, LOVE, and SPIRIT.
No, you didn't. What you did was change the subject and then proved the new topic.

2 Corinthians 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Amen! This passage says nothing that contradicts a word I've said nor a syllable withwhich I disagree.

I am not responsible for your misunderstanding nor am I responsible to read your mind. The entire discussion is still right here for you or anyone else to read. If you need to read it to follow the discussion then I invite you to do so but just repeating your claims don't count as rebuttal arguments and proving points that were never in dispute doesn't either.

There is nothing comparable to the ONCE AND FOR ALL, not even Paul.
This is mindlessness.

If this were the case, then there would have never been an Apostle Paul to begin with. Jesus already has twelve apostles. If Paul wasn't doing anything different then there would have been no need for a thirteenth apostle.

You made a mistake about the third murderer; and, Moses was NOT a murderer as David was.
You're a liar. You aught to be ashamed of yourself.

I just directly quoted the passage that proves this stupidity false!

In fact, I'm not going any further. We're done.

It turns out that what I said earlier does seem to apply to you after all. You aren't interested in anything the bible says unless it lines up with your doctrine. You're just as big a waste of time as anyone else on this website.

I repent of having spent all this time with you. I wish I hadn't done it. I won't be making the same mistake again.

Clete
 
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