I quoted it right out of the horses mouth.
Your persistence in either making hasty generalizations or misrepresenting Calvinists for years shouldn't really impress anyone.
I know that you do not impress me in the slightest.
I have a thread with hundreds of posts in it where I couldn't get a Calvinist to part ways with Calvin's direct statement that God is arbitrary. No matter what I said, they would not step one inch away from a word of it.
Will you?
The reason they don't "put it in those terms" is because they don't agree to the straw man you have been accustomed to pushing down.
No it isn't. The reason they won't put in those terms is because a 3rd grade mental retard would know that it was false if they did!
It doesn't change the meaning of the words, it doesn't change what they actually believe! They absolutely do and would not ever deny that God is in meticulous control of every single event that occures, that those who are saved are saved because of God's choice which has no reason or cause other than God's will itself. People are not saved, according to the Calvinist, because they believe, in fact they only believe because they won the biggest comic lottery in all of existence, God's sovereign uncaused choice. They believe that if you are going to Hell it isn't because you were evil but rather because you're evil because God created you to be so and for NO OTHER REASON!
Now, that's what they believe whether you want to acknowledge it or not!
Calvinist doctrine, clearly teaches that all men merit condemnation and that God's predestination is to save some from the just consequences of their sins. Sproul addresses this in "Chosen by God." page 119 says this..
This is how we must understand double predestination. God gives mercy to the elect by working faith in their hearts. He gives justice to the reprobate by leaving them in their own sins. There is no symmetry here. One group receives mercy, The other group receives justice. No one is a victim of injustice. None can complain that there is unrighteousness in God. (R.C. Sproul, "Chosen by God" page 119
I just want to vomit! :vomit:
GOD IS NOT UNJUST!
Mercy is NOT the opposite of justice!
How can anyone worship such a twisted sick perverted disgusting god as Sproul espouses!
OMG! I want to punch him in his face!
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Calming down.....
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Sproul is a typical Calvinist heretic who speaks out of both sides of his mouth.
Remember what I said about how the Calvinist brain is compartmentalized to the point that they do not notice when they contradict themselves. This is a terrific example of that except you can't see it because you didn't bother to quote anything he said about why God predestines some to Heaven and others to Hell or what he has to say about whether those who do evil do so because they choose to or whether God predestined that they would.
I'd quote them myself but it wouldn't move you an inch if I did and I'm short on time. Suffice it to say that Sproul believes that your will is both free and determined. That you always choose according to your strongest desire and that human beings always desire evil and are incapable of doing rightly unless and until God regenerates you which is done by His choice and not your own. He (Sproul) effectively preaches the same as Augustine (Calvinism is nothing really other than Reformed Augustinian doctrine) that “We still have free will, but not liberty,” which is to say that man makes choices but has no moral liberty. Thus God's sends people to an eternal torment for actions that they could not have avoided performing. In other words, moral liberty, when discussing whether God's punishment of sin is just, is the only sort of liberty that counts! People aren't sent to Hell because they chose to eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich instead of cheese and crackers. They're sent to Hell because they chose to rebel against the living God, which is a moral choice! The reason that's just is because they could have chosen otherwise, an ability which Sproul rejects entirely.
So, again, a rose by any other name is still a rose. They can dress their doctrine up in all kinds of fancy words and sermons that tickle the ears and sound reasonable but at the end of the day, they believe that every single thing that happens does so because God planned it, predestined it, ordained it and ordered it to happen and for no other reason - period. If your house is on fire its because God wanted it to be. If you soul is damned - same reason.
Speaking of the differences between, infralapsarian, sublapsarian and supralapsarian forms of Calvinism, you said:
I assure you the differences are just as valid as the distinctions.
Saying it doesn't make it so and that wasn't what I was saying anyway. It was your point that made a distinction without a difference, which I explained quite clearly and won't do so again.
Yes, we all believe that God chose specific individuals (as do Arminians).
You are delusional.
There are those who argue that God predestined a “plan” but not individuals, but that silly idea is quickly dispelled by the scriptures.
He predestined neither.
Second, Calvinists do not believe there is a “why” that is any of your or my business.
Repeating your doctrine does not count as a rebuttal to the argument I've already made against it.
God did not choose who He would predestine based on any merit or value in the objects of His predestination. Nor did God do based on His foreknowledge of how we would respond when we heard the gospel. Thus, God did so for his own glory, by His own secret counsel of His will, which all of the quotes you happened to lift from the institutes are conveying.
The quotes convey what they say and they mean precisely what the seem to mean, as you have just conceded.
You are a Christian in name only. No man can be saved by believing blasphemy.
Nevertheless, I see where you are erring here. You fundamentally misunderstand the gospel.
The entire gospel is predicated upon the fact that, were God to execute justice, all would perish.
No it isn't!
That's your hideous doctrine, not the gospel!
God had His Son die as a propitiation. Do you know what that word means? It's basically synonymous with the word "atonement". It's a reparation or restitution; a payment of a debt owed.
Christ, by his own choice, was penalized in the place of sinners, thus satisfying the demands of justice so God can justly forgive sin and save people from Hell by applying Christ's payment to their account.
Otherwise, there was no need for Christ to die.
The gospel is necessary because all men deserve hell. Get this wrong and you telegraph that you either haven’t read the book of Romans or you still don’t get it.
The gospel is necessary because the cross satisfied the just condemnation for all who Jesus said the Father would give to Him, and all who the Father has given to Jesus will come to Jesus. (John 6:37). All of them, every single one. The rest die in their sins (John 8:24).
You Calvinists disgust me!
You want to limit the value of God's life!
God's life is of inestimable, infinite, inexhaustible value! He died for the entire world (John 3:16). Those who believe, God is able to justly forgive because the store house of payment for sin is filled to overflowing with the blood of Christ.
Now, let me quickly address your attempt at interpreting Ezekiel in order to try and contradict Paul in Romans.
I have not interpreted anything. I simply told you to read it. It means precisely what it seems to mean. Literally any third grade child could read that chapter and understand what it means. It's takes a Calvinist fool to get it wrong.
Lets start with a few observations.
[*] Ezekiel 18 is not in contrast or contradiction to Romans 5:12.
You wouldn't know Romans 5 from indigestion caused by week old pizza.
[*]Paul’s statements concerning the guiltiness we all have before God still stands despite your attempts to brush them aside (Romans 2:1, 3:9. 3:23, Galatians 3:22).
When did I ever make any such attempt? You flatly have no idea at all what you're talking about.
Ezekiel 18 blows Calvinism to pieces not the Apostle Paul! It's the totally unbiblical notions of original sin and total depravity that God directly contradicts by His own words in Ezekiel 18, not the notion that all of have chosen to rebel against God and it is that rebellion and not Adam's which condemns us (Romans 5:12-21).
[*]Nobody gets to heaven apart from the forgiveness of their sins through the shed blood of Jesus.
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This single point is generally true and in an important sense it is universally true but not everyone who makes it to Heaven will have ever heard of Jesus Christ prior to their natural death (Romans 2:12-15).
Which of these points do you disagree with?
I don't think you have any idea what one tenth of the book of Romans is talking about. You couldn't possibly. Practically every concept in the English language that has any religious connotation to it has been twisted and perverted into what it very often it's opposite by the Calvinist delusion that pervades and poisons your mind.
