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  • #61
    Originally posted by Dialogos View Post
    Oh, no it isn't. Your persistence in either making hasty generalizations or misrepresenting Calvinists for years shouldn't really impress anyone. The reason they don't "put it in those terms" is because they don't agree to the straw man you have been accustomed to pushing down. Calvinist doctrine, clearly teaches that all men merit condemnation and that God's predestination is to save some from the just consequences of their sins. Sproul addresses this in "Chosen by God." page 119 says this..



    Speaking of the differences between, infralapsarian, sublapsarian and supralapsarian forms of Calvinism, you said:

    You said:

    I assure you the differences are just as valid as the distinctions. Yes, we all believe that God chose specific individuals (as do Arminians). There are those who argue that God predestined a “plan” but not individuals, but that silly idea is quickly dispelled by the scriptures. Second, Calvinists do not believe there is a “why” that is any of your or my business. God did not choose who He would predestine based on any merit or value in the objects of His predestination. Nor did God do based on His foreknowledge of how we would respond when we heard the gospel. Thus, God did so for his own glory, by His own secret counsel of His will, which all of the quotes you happened to lift from the institutes are conveying.

    Nevertheless, I see where you are erring here. You fundamentally misunderstand the gospel.


    The entire gospel is predicated upon the fact that, were God to execute justice, all would perish. The gospel is necessary because all men deserve hell. Get this wrong and you telegraph that you either haven’t read the book of Romans or you still don’t get it.
    The gospel is necessary because the cross satisfied the just condemnation for all who Jesus said the Father would give to Him, and all who the Father has given to Jesus will come to Jesus. (John 6:37). All of them, every single one. The rest die in their sins (John 8:24).
    Yes, the reason there is no reasoning or communication to be realized amongst free willers and/or dispensationalists, is their ignorance of the doctrine of Total Depravity.

    Adam, as federal head of the human race, corrupted the human nature of all mankind by his unbelief and sinful act. Corruption is the result of human failure and continues to be so until the end of time.

    What is also greatly missing in the questions put forth by others, is any mention of Godly pardon.

    Being absolutely sovereign over His creatures, and King of heaven and earth, God has the power to pardon guilty persons, condemned to a death sentence. The doctrine of Election when presented and taught, does not condemn souls already condemned. John 3:18-19

    The doctrine of Unconditional Election reveals that God has chosen to save many through the means of forgiveness & legal pardon, based upon the righteous obedience and vicarious death of Jesus Christ.

    Attempts to discuss the pardoning worked through Solus Christus is almost always interrupted and opposed by proponents of free will choices.

    The natural man wants to save himself and mistakenly thinks his witness can overcome the condemnation already issued against others . . he wants to be Savior through the power of his will . . rather than believing, resting, trusting, and glorifying the power of the will of Sovereign God.

    Sigh.
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Clete View Post
      Which question?
      Your question about the fire rescue.

      And what in the world made universalism come to mind?
      Your continual attitude of showing ire over the fact that Calvinists honestly witness to the fact that salvation is not universal.
      "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

      " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
      Gordon H. Clark

      "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
      Charles Spurgeon

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Nang View Post
        Your question about the fire rescue.
        How does that question not answer itself?!

        Listen Nang, seriously. If you think that the answer to that question is anything but completely obvious then you really really really need to do some serious soul searching concerning just what this poisonous doctrine you believe in has done to your ability to discern right from wrong!

        I wouldn't allow someone to watch my kids who didn't have any more ability to tell right from wrong than that!

        A person who sets your house on fire and then runs to your rescue is worthy of death, not your thanks and certainly not praise as a saving hero!
        We're talking sociopath level stuff here, Nang! What sort of perverted sick-minded fool would think otherwise and yet that is precisely what you think God has done to you!

        Your continual attitude of showing ire over the fact that Calvinists honestly witness to the fact that salvation is not universal.
        Well that's just stupidity! Good grief Nang are you actually stupid, as in, do you have brain damage or a congenital mental impairment?

        If so, you might have an excuse for the hideous things you say about God on this forum.

        Those who believe that God became a man, lived a perfect (sinless) life, died the death that they deserve and rose from the dead will be saved.

        Those who do not believe that will not be saved.
        John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
        sigpic
        "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Clete View Post
          How does that question not answer itself?!

          Listen Nang, seriously. If you think that the answer to that question is anything but completely obvious then you really really really need to do some serious soul searching concerning just what this poisonous doctrine you believe in has done to your ability to descern anything?

          I wouldn't allow someone to watch my kids who didn't have any more ability to tell right from wrong than that and they're teenagers!


          A person who sets your house on fire and then runs to your rescue is worthy of death, not your thanks and certainly not praise as a saving hero!

          What sort of perverted sick-minded fool would think otherwise and yet that is precisely what you think God has done to you!


          Well that's just stupidity! Good greif Nang are you actually stupid, as in, do you have brain damaged or a congenital mental imparement?

          If so, you might have an excuse for the hidious things you say about God on this forum.

          Those who believe that God became a man, lived a perfect (sinless) life, died the death that they deserve and rose from the dead will be saved.

          Those who do not believe that will not be saved.
          John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
          Why do you blame God for Adam's sin?
          "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

          " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
          Gordon H. Clark

          "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
          Charles Spurgeon

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Nang View Post
            Why do you blame God for Adam's sin?
            John Calvin is the person blaming God for Adam's sin.


            “The first man fell because the Lord deemed it meet that he should.”
            ~John Calvin


            “I freely acknowledge my doctrine to be this: that Adam fell, not only by the permission of God, but by His very secret, the counsil and decree …”
            ~John Calvin


            “God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it.”
            ~John Calvin


            “I again ask how it is that the fall of Adam involves so many nations with their infant children in eternal death without remedy unless that it so seemed meet to God? Here the most loquacious tongues must be dumb. The decree, I admit, is, dreadful; and yet it is impossible to deny that God foreknew what the end of man was to be before he made him, and foreknew, because he had so ordained by his decree.”
            ~John Calvin

            Learn to read what is written.

            _____
            The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
            ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Dialogos View Post
              Oh, no it isn't.
              I quoted it right out of the horses mouth.

              Your persistence in either making hasty generalizations or misrepresenting Calvinists for years shouldn't really impress anyone.
              I know that you do not impress me in the slightest.

              I have a thread with hundreds of posts in it where I couldn't get a Calvinist to part ways with Calvin's direct statement that God is arbitrary. No matter what I said, they would not step one inch away from a word of it.

              Will you?

              The reason they don't "put it in those terms" is because they don't agree to the straw man you have been accustomed to pushing down.
              No it isn't. The reason they won't put in those terms is because a 3rd grade mental retard would know that it was false if they did!

              It doesn't change the meaning of the words, it doesn't change what they actually believe! They absolutely do and would not ever deny that God is in meticulous control of every single event that occures, that those who are saved are saved because of God's choice which has no reason or cause other than God's will itself. People are not saved, according to the Calvinist, because they believe, in fact they only believe because they won the biggest comic lottery in all of existence, God's sovereign uncaused choice. They believe that if you are going to Hell it isn't because you were evil but rather because you're evil because God created you to be so and for NO OTHER REASON!

              Now, that's what they believe whether you want to acknowledge it or not!

              Calvinist doctrine, clearly teaches that all men merit condemnation and that God's predestination is to save some from the just consequences of their sins. Sproul addresses this in "Chosen by God." page 119 says this..
              This is how we must understand double predestination. God gives mercy to the elect by working faith in their hearts. He gives justice to the reprobate by leaving them in their own sins. There is no symmetry here. One group receives mercy, The other group receives justice. No one is a victim of injustice. None can complain that there is unrighteousness in God. (R.C. Sproul, "Chosen by God" page 119
              I just want to vomit!

              GOD IS NOT UNJUST!

              Mercy is NOT the opposite of justice!

              How can anyone worship such a twisted sick perverted disgusting god as Sproul espouses!

              OMG! I want to punch him in his face!


              -------------


              Calming down.....


              -------------

              Sproul is a typical Calvinist heretic who speaks out of both sides of his mouth.

              Remember what I said about how the Calvinist brain is compartmentalized to the point that they do not notice when they contradict themselves. This is a terrific example of that except you can't see it because you didn't bother to quote anything he said about why God predestines some to Heaven and others to Hell or what he has to say about whether those who do evil do so because they choose to or whether God predestined that they would.

              I'd quote them myself but it wouldn't move you an inch if I did and I'm short on time. Suffice it to say that Sproul believes that your will is both free and determined. That you always choose according to your strongest desire and that human beings always desire evil and are incapable of doing rightly unless and until God regenerates you which is done by His choice and not your own. He (Sproul) effectively preaches the same as Augustine (Calvinism is nothing really other than Reformed Augustinian doctrine) that “We still have free will, but not liberty,” which is to say that man makes choices but has no moral liberty. Thus God's sends people to an eternal torment for actions that they could not have avoided performing. In other words, moral liberty, when discussing whether God's punishment of sin is just, is the only sort of liberty that counts! People aren't sent to Hell because they chose to eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich instead of cheese and crackers. They're sent to Hell because they chose to rebel against the living God, which is a moral choice! The reason that's just is because they could have chosen otherwise, an ability which Sproul rejects entirely.

              So, again, a rose by any other name is still a rose. They can dress their doctrine up in all kinds of fancy words and sermons that tickle the ears and sound reasonable but at the end of the day, they believe that every single thing that happens does so because God planned it, predestined it, ordained it and ordered it to happen and for no other reason - period. If your house is on fire its because God wanted it to be. If you soul is damned - same reason.

              Speaking of the differences between, infralapsarian, sublapsarian and supralapsarian forms of Calvinism, you said:

              I assure you the differences are just as valid as the distinctions.
              Saying it doesn't make it so and that wasn't what I was saying anyway. It was your point that made a distinction without a difference, which I explained quite clearly and won't do so again.

              Yes, we all believe that God chose specific individuals (as do Arminians).
              You are delusional.

              There are those who argue that God predestined a “plan” but not individuals, but that silly idea is quickly dispelled by the scriptures.
              He predestined neither.

              Second, Calvinists do not believe there is a “why” that is any of your or my business.
              Repeating your doctrine does not count as a rebuttal to the argument I've already made against it.

              God did not choose who He would predestine based on any merit or value in the objects of His predestination. Nor did God do based on His foreknowledge of how we would respond when we heard the gospel. Thus, God did so for his own glory, by His own secret counsel of His will, which all of the quotes you happened to lift from the institutes are conveying.
              The quotes convey what they say and they mean precisely what the seem to mean, as you have just conceded.

              You are a Christian in name only. No man can be saved by believing blasphemy.

              Nevertheless, I see where you are erring here. You fundamentally misunderstand the gospel.

              The entire gospel is predicated upon the fact that, were God to execute justice, all would perish.
              No it isn't!

              That's your hideous doctrine, not the gospel!

              God had His Son die as a propitiation. Do you know what that word means? It's basically synonymous with the word "atonement". It's a reparation or restitution; a payment of a debt owed.

              Christ, by his own choice, was penalized in the place of sinners, thus satisfying the demands of justice so God can justly forgive sin and save people from Hell by applying Christ's payment to their account.

              Otherwise, there was no need for Christ to die.

              The gospel is necessary because all men deserve hell. Get this wrong and you telegraph that you either haven’t read the book of Romans or you still don’t get it.
              The gospel is necessary because the cross satisfied the just condemnation for all who Jesus said the Father would give to Him, and all who the Father has given to Jesus will come to Jesus. (John 6:37). All of them, every single one. The rest die in their sins (John 8:24).
              You Calvinists disgust me!

              You want to limit the value of God's life!

              God's life is of inestimable, infinite, inexhaustible value! He died for the entire world (John 3:16). Those who believe, God is able to justly forgive because the store house of payment for sin is filled to overflowing with the blood of Christ.

              Now, let me quickly address your attempt at interpreting Ezekiel in order to try and contradict Paul in Romans.
              I have not interpreted anything. I simply told you to read it. It means precisely what it seems to mean. Literally any third grade child could read that chapter and understand what it means. It's takes a Calvinist fool to get it wrong.

              Lets start with a few observations.

              [*] Ezekiel 18 is not in contrast or contradiction to Romans 5:12.
              You wouldn't know Romans 5 from indigestion caused by week old pizza.

              [*]Paul’s statements concerning the guiltiness we all have before God still stands despite your attempts to brush them aside (Romans 2:1, 3:9. 3:23, Galatians 3:22).
              When did I ever make any such attempt? You flatly have no idea at all what you're talking about.

              Ezekiel 18 blows Calvinism to pieces not the Apostle Paul! It's the totally unbiblical notions of original sin and total depravity that God directly contradicts by His own words in Ezekiel 18, not the notion that all of have chosen to rebel against God and it is that rebellion and not Adam's which condemns us (Romans 5:12-21).

              [*]Nobody gets to heaven apart from the forgiveness of their sins through the shed blood of Jesus.[/LIST]
              This single point is generally true and in an important sense it is universally true but not everyone who makes it to Heaven will have ever heard of Jesus Christ prior to their natural death (Romans 2:12-15).

              Which of these points do you disagree with?
              I don't think you have any idea what one tenth of the book of Romans is talking about. You couldn't possibly. Practically every concept in the English language that has any religious connotation to it has been twisted and perverted into what it very often it's opposite by the Calvinist delusion that pervades and poisons your mind.
              sigpic
              "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Nang View Post
                Why do you blame God for Adam's sin?
                Are you drunk?


                Explain to me how on God's Earth you came to the notion that I blaim anyone other than Adam for Adam's sin?

                Go ahead! Explain it to me!
                sigpic
                "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                  John Calvin is the person blaming God for Adam's sin.


                  “The first man fell because the Lord deemed it meet that he should.”
                  ~John Calvin


                  “I freely acknowledge my doctrine to be this: that Adam fell, not only by the permission of God, but by His very secret, the counsil and decree …”
                  ~John Calvin


                  “God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it.”
                  ~John Calvin


                  “I again ask how it is that the fall of Adam involves so many nations with their infant children in eternal death without remedy unless that it so seemed meet to God? Here the most loquacious tongues must be dumb. The decree, I admit, is, dreadful; and yet it is impossible to deny that God foreknew what the end of man was to be before he made him, and foreknew, because he had so ordained by his decree.”
                  ~John Calvin

                  Exactly!

                  Do you by chance have the references for those quotes? Which book, chapter, etc?

                  Are they all Institutes book three chapter 23?
                  sigpic
                  "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Clete View Post
                    Are you drunk?


                    Explain to me how on God's Earth you came to the notion that I blaim anyone other than Adam for Adam's sin?

                    Go ahead! Explain it to me!
                    You deny that Adam is to blame for all human corruption, so if Adam is not to blame, who is left?

                    And why the need for God to provide the 2nd Adam, Jesus Christ, if not to reverse the damage the first Adam caused.

                    IOW's failure to understand the fruits of the first Adam, cause you to fail to comprehend the benefits provided in the last Adam, Jesus Christ.

                    Your arguments are not studied or well thought out, but only emotional and superficial as usual.

                    And Sproul is no longer . . he passed on quite some time ago now.
                    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

                    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
                    Gordon H. Clark

                    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
                    Charles Spurgeon

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Clete View Post
                      Exactly!

                      Do you by chance have the references for those quotes? Which book, chapter, etc?
                      In order:
                      Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book III, Ch. 23, Sect. 8.
                      Calvin, On the Secret Providence of God, 267.
                      Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book III, Ch. 23, Sect. 7.
                      Ibid, Book II, Ch. 23, Sect. 7.
                      Learn to read what is written.

                      _____
                      The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                      ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                        John Calvin is the person blaming God for Adam's sin.


                        “The first man fell because the Lord deemed it meet that he should.”
                        ~John Calvin


                        “I freely acknowledge my doctrine to be this: that Adam fell, not only by the permission of God, but by His very secret, the counsil and decree …”
                        ~John Calvin


                        “God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it.”
                        ~John Calvin


                        “I again ask how it is that the fall of Adam involves so many nations with their infant children in eternal death without remedy unless that it so seemed meet to God? Here the most loquacious tongues must be dumb. The decree, I admit, is, dreadful; and yet it is impossible to deny that God foreknew what the end of man was to be before he made him, and foreknew, because he had so ordained by his decree.”
                        ~John Calvin

                        Foreknowledge, and willful permission do not equate cause.

                        Calvin nor any Reformer declares God to be the author of Adam's sin.

                        God gave Adam choice. Isn't that what you believe?
                        "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

                        " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
                        Gordon H. Clark

                        "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
                        Charles Spurgeon

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Nang View Post
                          You deny that Adam is to blame for all human corruption, so if Adam is not to blame, who is left?
                          Death spead to all men BECAUSE ALL SINNED.

                          That's not my opinion, that a quote of Romans 5

                          And why the need for God to provide the 2nd Adam, Jesus Christ, if not to reverse the damage the first Adam caused.
                          Jesus was not the 2nd Adam, He was the Last Adam. There is a difference. You and you're sola scriptura!

                          And it was precisely the curse that Adam brought that Jesus did undo and much more than that! It is precisely Jesus' death that enables God to say "The soul who sins shall die. But if a man is just, he shall surely live!"

                          And, once again, that isn't my opinion nor did I make that quote up. It comes solely from scripture itself!

                          IOW's failure to understand the fruits of the first Adam, cause you to fail to comprehend the benefits provided in the last Adam, Jesus Christ.
                          Who is IOW?

                          And you talking to me about what I don't comprehend is an actaul laugh riot! I actually did laugh outloud!

                          Your arguments are not studied or well thought out, but only emotional and superficial as usual.
                          Then refute them!

                          I dare you to try!

                          And Sproul is no longer . . he passed on quite some time ago now.
                          He is no longer a Calvinist either.
                          sigpic
                          "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                            In order:
                            Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book III, Ch. 23, Sect. 8.
                            Calvin, On the Secret Providence of God, 267.
                            Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book III, Ch. 23, Sect. 7.
                            Ibid, Book II, Ch. 23, Sect. 7.
                            Anyone following this conversation, please avail yourself of the actual and complete text (it is online) of the Institutes in order to see that what has been quoted here are portions of arguments and stated opposition against Calvins' beliefs. His answers are exempted from GO's post.
                            "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

                            " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
                            Gordon H. Clark

                            "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
                            Charles Spurgeon

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Nang View Post
                              Foreknowledge, and willful permission do not equate cause.
                              "ordained by his decree" does equate cause.
                              Originally posted by Nang View Post
                              Calvin nor any Reformer declares God to be the author of Adam's sin.
                              It sounds like it to me.

                              “I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam’s children have fallen by God’s will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 4)

                              Originally posted by Nang View Post
                              God gave Adam choice. Isn't that what you believe?
                              I believe God gave Adam and all of mankind free-will: the ability to choose whether to obey God or disobey God.
                              Learn to read what is written.

                              _____
                              The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                              ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by nikolai_42 View Post
                                My point is that you are trying to force something on scripture that isn't there. You are saying that because someone is blind, that means they have eyes and so they should be able to see.
                                That is not what I am saying. Instead, I said that Satan blinded those who are perishing to the truth of the gospel. That can only mean that those who are perishing had the ability to see the light of the gospel because it is impossible to blind someone who is already blind.

                                This directly contradicts the Calvinist's teaching about their idea of a so called "effectual calling."

                                Comment

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