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What is the Firmament in Genesis 1?

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  • #31
    When the Bible speaks of God "stretching out the heavens," does that mean space, the Earth's crust, or both?
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

    Comment


    • #32
      From gotquestions.org

      The “firmament” (from the Latin firmamentum, meaning “sky” or “expanse”) is mentioned 17 times in the King James Version of the Bible and refers to the expanse of the heavens above the earth.

      Nine of the occurrences of firmament are in the first chapter of the Bible as part of the creation account. Genesis 1:6-8 says, “And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.” The “firmament” is called “heaven”; i.e., it is what people see when they stand outside and look up. It is the space which includes the earth’s atmosphere and the celestial realm. In the firmament, we see the sun, moon, and stars; in modern translations the firmament is often called the “expanse” or the “sky.”

      Genesis says that the firmament “separated the water under the expanse from the water above it” (Genesis 1:7). Originally, God created the earth with water “under” the sky (terrestrial and subterranean water) and water “above” the sky—possibly a “water canopy” which enwrapped the earth in a protective layer. Or, the waters above the firmament could simply be a reference to clouds.

      We find firmament used again in Psalms: “The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork” (Psalm 19:1). Also, in Psalm 150:1, “Praise ye the LORD. . . . Praise him in the firmament of his power.”

      Firmament is used in only two other books of the Bible: Ezekiel (five times) and Daniel (once). In Ezekiel, each occurrence takes place within a vision. For example, “Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne” (Ezekiel 10:1).

      Daniel 12:3 says, “And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.”

      In short, the “firmament” is a vast expanse, specifically the atmosphere or sky. The word is found only in the King James Version and other older translations of the Bible.
      He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

      Jim Elliot

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
        From gotquestions.org

        The “firmament” (from the Latin firmamentum, meaning “sky” or “expanse”) is mentioned 17 times in the King James Version of the Bible and refers to the expanse of the heavens above the earth.

        Nine of the occurrences of firmament are in the first chapter of the Bible as part of the creation account. Genesis 1:6-8 says, “And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.” The “firmament” is called “heaven”; i.e., it is what people see when they stand outside and look up. It is the space which includes the earth’s atmosphere and the celestial realm. In the firmament, we see the sun, moon, and stars; in modern translations the firmament is often called the “expanse” or the “sky.”

        Genesis says that the firmament “separated the water under the expanse from the water above it” (Genesis 1:7). Originally, God created the earth with water “under” the sky (terrestrial and subterranean water) and water “above” the sky—possibly a “water canopy” which enwrapped the earth in a protective layer. Or, the waters above the firmament could simply be a reference to clouds.

        We find firmament used again in Psalms: “The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork” (Psalm 19:1). Also, in Psalm 150:1, “Praise ye the LORD. . . . Praise him in the firmament of his power.”

        Firmament is used in only two other books of the Bible: Ezekiel (five times) and Daniel (once). In Ezekiel, each occurrence takes place within a vision. For example, “Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne” (Ezekiel 10:1).

        Daniel 12:3 says, “And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.”

        In short, the “firmament” is a vast expanse, specifically the atmosphere or sky. The word is found only in the King James Version and other older translations of the Bible.
        If "firmament" ONLY meant the sky/space/heavens, then why did Moses, the first 5 times that he used the word in Genesis 1, NOT clarify it, then the remaining 4 times, use the clarifying phrase "of the heavens"?

        There's no reason other than he's trying to distinguish the two grammatically.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
          Yes, God created the sky (heaven)
          Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
          Question begging.
          Using the correct synonyms for a word is not question begging.

          Synonyms for sky
          azure
          empyrean
          firmament
          heavens
          lid
          vault
          welkin
          celestial sphere
          the blue
          upper atmosphere
          vault of heaven
          wild blue yonder


          Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
          he created a firmament in the midst of the waters, dividing the waters above from the waters below.

          It does not say "expanse of air."
          It does say that the birds fly above the earth in the firmament, which is the air above the earth.

          Genesis 1:20
          20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.



          Genesis 1:20 EXB
          20 Then God said, “Let the water ·be filled with living things [L swarm with living creatures], and let birds fly in the ·air [L firmament/dome/expanse] above the earth.”


          Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
          It says raqia, which means, in addition to the arch of the sky, "something pounded out," or, "an expanse."
          You seem to be taking a side comment (as if beaten out) from Brown-Driver-Briggs and using it for the primary definition.
          You might as well concentrate on the other side comment (as if of ice) and start claiming that the firmament is made of ice.

          רָקִיעַ noun masculine
          Genesis 1:6 extended surface, (solid) expanse (as if beaten out; compare Job 37:18); — absolute ׳ר Ezekiel 1:22 +, construct ׳רְ Genesis 1:14 +; — ᵐ5 στερέωμα, ᵑ9 firmamentum, compare Syriac below √above; —
          1 (flat) expanse (as if of ice, compare כְּעֵין הַקֶּרַח), as base, support (WklAltor. Forsch. iv. 347) Ezekiel 1:22,23,25(gloss ? compare Co Toy), Ezekiel 1:26 (supporting ׳י's throne). Hence (CoEzekiel 1:22)
          2 the vault of heaven, or 'firmament,' regarded by Hebrews as solid, and supporting 'waters' above it, Genesis 1:6,7 (3 t. in verse); Genesis 1:8 (called שָׁמַיַם; all P), Psalm 19:2 ("" הַשָּׁמַיַם), ׳זֹהַר הָר Daniel 12:3; also ׳ר הַשָּׁמִיִם Genesis 1:14,15,17, ׳הַשּׁ ׳עַלמְּֿנֵי ר Genesis 1:20 (all P). **רְקִיעַ עֻזּוֺ Psalm 150:1 (suffix reference to ׳י).

          Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
          God then called that firmament Heaven.
          Yes, God called the firmament "Sky", therefore the firmament is the sky.
          Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
          In fact, it's not until verse 14, on DAY 4, that God turns His attention towards, yup, "the firmament of the heavens."
          You seem to be skipping some important verses.

          Genesis 1:8-10
          8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
          9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
          10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.


          God said that the name of the firmament was "Sky" (שָׁמַיִם shamayim).
          God said that the name of the dry land that was under that same firmament (sky) was "Earth" (אֶרֶץ 'erets).
          God said that the name of the waters that were under that same firmament (sky) was "Seas" (יָם yam).

          Therefore: any attempt to change "Earth" to mean "firmament" (or vise versa) is fraudulent.
          Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
          The word "heaven" only acquired the meaning "God's abode" after mankind started believing that God lived in the sky.
          Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
          And when did God start living in the sky? Before or after He lived on Earth with Adam and Eve?
          God never lived in the sky, but mankind started believing that God lived in the sky fairly soon after Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden.
          Learn to read what is written.

          _____
          The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
          ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Stripe View Post
            When the Bible speaks of God "stretching out the heavens," does that mean space, the Earth's crust, or both?
            It is only referring to what we see above the earth.
            Learn to read what is written.

            _____
            The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
            ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
              If "firmament" ONLY meant the sky/space/heavens, then why did Moses, the first 5 times that he used the word in Genesis 1, NOT clarify it, then the remaining 4 times, use the clarifying phrase "of the heavens"?

              There's no reason other than he's trying to distinguish the two grammatically.
              The word "firmament" (dome, expanse, air) is explicitly stated to be equal to "heaven" (sky).

              Genesis 1:8 EXB
              8 God ·named [called] the ·air [L firmament/dome/expanse] “·sky [heaven].” Evening passed, and morning came [1:5]. This was the second day.


              There is no reason to assume it means anything else in the Genesis account.
              Learn to read what is written.

              _____
              The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
              ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                Using the correct synonyms for a word is not question begging.
                You're right.

                It's not question begging. I was wrong on that.

                It's special pleading.


                Special pleading: argument in which the speaker deliberately ignores aspects that are unfavorable to their point of view



                Synonyms for sky
                azure
                empyrean
                firmament
                heavens
                lid
                vault
                welkin
                celestial sphere
                the blue
                upper atmosphere
                vault of heaven
                wild blue yonder
                Using modern words to support your position on what a word meant in ancient times doesn't help your position in the slightest. I am well aware that today, and traditionally, the word "heaven" means the sky.

                However, the argument I am making is that there is a specific reason that moses used "firmament" without a clarifying phrase, and then suddenly starts using "of the heavens" after "firmament."

                There is no reason to do this unless you are specifying that the word you are using is referring to something other than what you were initially referring to.

                It does say that the birds fly above the earth in the firmament, which is the air above the earth.
                What it says is that the birds fly across the firmament of the heavens. Not just the firmament.

                Genesis 1:20
                20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
                Even though it says it plainly, you still miss it.

                "Firmament of heaven."

                Not just "firmament."

                Why did Moses include a clarifying phrase in only the last four of his uses of firmament, GO?

                Genesis 1:20 EXB
                20 Then God said, “Let the water ·be filled with living things [L swarm with living creatures], and let birds fly in the ·air [L firmament/dome/expanse] above the earth.”
                Well, no. This is, again, special pleading.

                You seem to be taking a side comment (as if beaten out) from Brown-Driver-Briggs and using it for the primary definition.
                You might as well concentrate on the other side comment (as if of ice) and start claiming that the firmament is made of ice.
                I'm not. And the fact that it even mentions "as if beaten out" lends credibility to my position, no matter how much you want to ignore it.

                רָקִיעַ noun masculine
                Genesis 1:6 extended surface, (solid) expanse (as if beaten out; compare Job 37:18); — absolute ׳ר Ezekiel 1:22 +, construct ׳רְ Genesis 1:14 +; — ᵐ5 στερέωμα, ᵑ9 firmamentum, compare Syriac below √above; —
                1 (flat) expanse (as if of ice, compare כְּעֵין הַקֶּרַח), as base, support (WklAltor. Forsch. iv. 347) Ezekiel 1:22,23,25(gloss ? compare Co Toy), Ezekiel 1:26 (supporting ׳י's throne). Hence (CoEzekiel 1:22)
                2 the vault of heaven, or 'firmament,' regarded by Hebrews as solid, and supporting 'waters' above it, Genesis 1:6,7 (3 t. in verse); Genesis 1:8 (called שָׁמַיַם; all P), Psalm 19:2 ("" הַשָּׁמַיַם), ׳זֹהַר הָר Daniel 12:3; also ׳ר הַשָּׁמִיִם Genesis 1:14,15,17, ׳הַשּׁ ׳עַלמְּֿנֵי ר Genesis 1:20 (all P). **רְקִיעַ עֻזּוֺ Psalm 150:1 (suffix reference to ׳י).
                You missed it:


                Raqia is the noun from the verb raqa meaning being hammered or spread out, as in working metal into a thin sheet or plate. "They beat (raqa) the gold into thin sheets" (Exodus 39:3). "The goldsmith overspreads (raqa) it with gold" (Isaiah 40:19; i.e., gold-plated).


                kgov.com/firmament

                Yes, God called the firmament "Sky", therefore the firmament is the sky.
                This is special pleading, again.

                You're ignoring the fact that the word used also means "heaven," and not just "sky."

                You seem to be skipping some important verses.

                Genesis 1:8-10
                8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
                9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
                10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.


                God said that the name of the firmament was "Sky" (שָׁמַיִם shamayim).
                Special pleading.

                The word also means "heaven."

                God said that the name of the dry land that was under
                "Under the heavens" is referring to the sky, just like "firmament of the heavens" is referring to the sky.

                However, to then say that EVERY use of "heaven/heavens" refers to the sky is fallacious.

                that same firmament (sky) was "Earth" (אֶרֶץ 'erets).
                This part I agree with.

                God said that the name of the waters that were under that same firmament (sky) was "Seas" (יָם yam).
                No argument here, see clarification above.

                Therefore: any attempt to change "Earth" to mean "firmament" (or vise versa) is fraudulent.
                I'm not trying to change what "firmament" means.

                I'm trying to get you to see the difference between the two firmaments that are present in Genesis 1, because there are two of them:

                There is the [firmament called "Heaven"]. This is used the first 5 times
                There is the [firmament of the heavens]. This is used the last 4 times.

                The first "firmament" is used without a qualifier phrase, and it refers to the crust of the earth.
                The second "firmament" is used with the qualifier phrase "of the heavens," and refers to the sky.

                God never lived in the sky, but mankind started believing that God lived in the sky fairly soon after Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden.
                Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                The word "firmament" (dome, expanse, air) is explicitly stated to be equal to "heaven" (sky).

                Genesis 1:8 EXB
                8 God ·named [called] the ·air [L firmament/dome/expanse] “·sky [heaven].” Evening passed, and morning came [1:5]. This was the second day.


                There is no reason to assume it means anything else in the Genesis account.
                You didn't answer the question that I asked.

                Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                If "firmament" ONLY meant the sky/space/heavens, then why did Moses, the first 5 times that he used the word in Genesis 1, NOT clarify it, then the remaining 4 times, use the clarifying phrase "of the heavens"?

                There's no reason other than he's trying to distinguish the two grammatically.
                Why did Moses use simply "firmament" 5 times in a row, then suddenly switch to using "firmament" with a qualifier phrase, "of the heavens"?

                "The trunk is five feet wide."
                "The trunk holds lots of groceries."
                "The trunk has emergency supplies in it."
                "The trunk also holds the spare tire."
                "The trunk is at the back of the vehicle."
                "The trunk of the elephant is 4 feet long."
                "The trunk of the elephant is grey."
                "The trunk of the elephant . . ."
                etc.

                See what I'm getting at?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                  Special pleading: argument in which the speaker deliberately ignores aspects that are unfavorable to their point of view



                  I am well aware that today, and traditionally, the word "heaven" means the sky.
                  So, you are admitting that you are using special pleading to ignore the traditional meaning and impose a meaning that is in opposition to the plainly understood meaning of the verses?


                  Learn to read what is written.

                  _____
                  The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                  ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                    So, you are admitting that you are using special pleading to ignore the traditional meaning and impose a meaning that is in opposition to the plainly understood meaning of the verses?

                    Posts like this will get you an infraction.

                    Don't be a troll, GO. We're having good discussion here. Don't ruin it.

                    The accusation of special pleading is against you, for ignoring the other meanings of "heaven" and "firmament" (raqia).

                    I have not and do not and will not deny that heaven and firmament both have multiple meanings.

                    What I WILL deny is that it ONLY has the traditional meanings that you are bringing forth as a defense of your argument, when there are MORE meaning in addition to what you bring forth.

                    In other words, the only one who could POSSIBLY be special pleading here is you.

                    Address the points made, GO, and don't be making snarky comments like the one you just made.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                      However, the argument I am making is that there is a specific reason that moses used "firmament" without a clarifying phrase, and then suddenly starts using "of the heavens" after "firmament."

                      There is no reason to do this unless you are specifying that the word you are using is referring to something other than what you were initially referring to.
                      The meaning of the words do not change because you don't understand the reason why Moses used them.

                      Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                      What it says is that the birds fly across the firmament of the heavens. Not just the firmament.

                      Genesis 1:20 CJB
                      20 God said, “Let the water swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open dome of the sky.”


                      You are claiming that there is no reason for Moses to have stated, "birds fly above the earth in the open dome of the sky," instead of merely saying, "birds fly above the earth in the open dome."
                      To me, there seems to be a very valid reason to say, "birds fly in the open dome of the sky," instead of saying, "birds fly in the open dome."
                      What open dome?
                      The open dome of the sky, that open dome.

                      Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                      Even though it says it plainly, you still miss it.
                      Right back at you.
                      Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                      Yes, God called the firmament "Sky", therefore the firmament is the sky.
                      Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                      This is, again, special pleading.
                      Not at all.
                      Accepting the vast majority of opinion of the translators and commentators throughout history is not "special" pleading.
                      Twisting the word רָקִיעַ to mean something new and contrary to the context it is found in because of an unprovable scientific theory is "special" pleading.

                      Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                      I'm not. And the fact that it even mentions "as if beaten out" lends credibility to my position, no matter how much you want to ignore it.
                      Actually, it doesn't do a thing for lending credibility to your position, since your position is that the expanse is the earth and not the sky.

                      Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                      You missed it:


                      Raqia is the noun from the verb raqa meaning being hammered or spread out, as in working metal into a thin sheet or plate. "They beat (raqa) the gold into thin sheets" (Exodus 39:3). "The goldsmith overspreads (raqa) it with gold" (Isaiah 40:19; i.e., gold-plated).


                      kgov.com/firmament
                      It appears as if you believe that רָקִיעַ raqiya` (expanse) is formed from the word רָקַע raqa` (beaten).
                      In that logic people were spreading out gold into a thin sheet before any people saw the sky spread out overhead.

                      Maybe your source is completely illogical?


                      Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                      You're ignoring the fact that the word used also means "heaven," and not just "sky."
                      You are ignoring that "heaven" and "sky" mean the same thing.

                      Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                      I'm trying to get you to see the difference between the two firmaments that are present in Genesis 1, because there are two of them:
                      All uses of רָקִיעַ raqiya` "firmament" in the Bible are referring to the same thing: the sky overhead.

                      Ezekiel 1:22
                      22 And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.

                      Learn to read what is written.

                      _____
                      The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                      ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                        The meaning of the words do not change because you don't understand the reason why Moses used them.
                        I'M NOT SAYING THE MEANING SHOULD CHANGE!

                        I'm saying that there is MORE meaning that YOU ARE IGNORING in favor of your traditional view of the passage.

                        Genesis 1:20 CJB
                        20 God said, “Let the water swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open dome of the sky.”


                        You are claiming that there is no reason for Moses to have stated, "birds fly above the earth in the open dome of the sky," instead of merely saying, "birds fly above the earth in the open dome."
                        To me, there seems to be a very valid reason to say, "birds fly in the open dome of the sky," instead of saying, "birds fly in the open dome."
                        What open dome?
                        The open dome of the sky, that open dome.
                        Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.” - Genesis 1:20 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0&version=NKJV

                        The words used are the same as in the other three verses, "firmament of the heavens."

                        Which is completely consistent with my position that the last four uses of "firmament," paired with the qualifier "of the heavens," is referring to the sky.

                        Right back at you.

                        Not at all.
                        Accepting the vast majority of opinion of the translators and commentators throughout history is not "special" pleading.
                        This is both an argument from popularity AND an appeal to tradition.

                        BOTH are fallacies.

                        Twisting the word רָקִיעַ to mean something new
                        It's not a new meaning.

                        and contrary to the context
                        THIS is question begging.

                        I have shown that it is NOT contrary to the context.

                        it is found in because of an unprovable scientific theory is "special" pleading.
                        Rather, the theory comes from the meaning of the word, not the other way around, GO.

                        Actually, it doesn't do a thing for lending credibility to your position, since your position is that the expanse is the earth and not the sky.
                        WRONG. That is NOT my position.

                        My position is that there are TWO "firmament"s in Genesis 1.

                        The first is the "firmament called Heaven" (1:6-8), which refers to the crust of the earth.
                        The second is the "firmament of the heavens (1:14,15,17,20) which refers to the sky.

                        It appears as if you believe that רָקִיעַ raqiya` (expanse) is formed from the word רָקַע raqa` (beaten).
                        Because it is...

                        In that logic people were spreading out gold into a thin sheet before any people saw the sky spread out overhead.
                        Huh?


                        Maybe your source is completely illogical?
                        Or maybe you're the one who's misinformed?


                        Strong's h7549

                        - Lexical: רָקִיעַ
                        - Transliteration: raqia
                        - Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
                        - Phonetic Spelling: raw-kee'-ah
                        - Definition: an extended surface, expanse.
                        - Origin: From raqa'; properly, an expanse, i.e. The firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky.
                        - Usage: firmament.
                        - Translated as (count): the firmament (8), in the firmament (3), of the firmament (3), a firmament (1), from above the firmament (1), in firmament (1).






                        Strong's h7554

                        - Lexical: רָקַע
                        - Transliteration: raqa
                        - Part of Speech: Verb
                        - Phonetic Spelling: raw-kah'
                        - Definition: to beat, stamp, beat out, spread out.
                        - Origin: A primitive root; to pound the earth (as a sign of passion); by analogy to expand (by hammering); by implication, to overlay (with thin sheets of metal).
                        - Usage: beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.
                        - Translated as (count): and stamp (1), and stamped (1), And they beat (1), and they were hammered out (1), Have you spread out (1), I spread them out (1), is beaten into plates (1), overspreads it (1), To Him who laid out (1), who spread forth (1), who spreads abroad (1).



                        You are ignoring that "heaven" and "sky" mean the same thing.
                        No, rather, I am showing you that "heaven" means (not "should mean") MORE than just "sky."

                        All uses of רָקִיעַ raqiya` "firmament" in the Bible are referring to the same thing: the sky overhead.
                        Then why use a qualifier after the first 5 times in the same chapter?

                        If it ALWAYS means the same thing, then why not just leave out the 4 "of the heavens" words.

                        Ezekiel 1:22
                        22 And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.
                        Your point? One verse is not "all uses," GO.

                        -----


                        God Raqa the EARTH! Firmament (raqia) is used "of the heavens" commonly and eleven times the Bible speaks of God stretching out the heavens. Then there is something not included in the above video. Another three times the Bible says that ]God raqa the earth itself. This shows, unlike as stressed on YouTube, that [YELLOW]raqia very naturally also refers to the earth. Dr. Walt Brown's book lists these verses but I'll repeat them here for Mr. Palmer's consideration:
                        To Him who laid out (raqa) the earth above the waters… Ps. 136:6

                        Thus says God the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread forth (raqa) the earth and that which comes from it… Isa. 42:5

                        “I am the Lord, who makes all things, who stretches out the heavens all alone, who spreads abroad (raqa) the earth by Myself;" Isa. 44:24

                        The firmament (raqia) of the creation account was iconic in ancient Israel, as the Tyndale Bible Dictionary says, "the firmament is always related to Creation." So the repetition and by two authors shows that the wording is deliberate. Thus these verses show an ancient awareness in Scripture that God raqa the Earth, that is, that His stretching out of the raqia of Genesis 1:8 readily refers to terra firma, or as the King James translators coined the word from the Latin, the firmament.


                        kgov.com/firmament (some emphasis mine)

                        GO, how do you explain the fact that God raqa the earth?



                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                          I'M NOT SAYING THE MEANING SHOULD CHANGE!

                          I'm saying that there is MORE meaning that YOU ARE IGNORING in favor of your traditional view of the passage.
                          What hurts your argument is that there really is no more meaning to use without contradicting the passage itself.

                          Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                          I have shown that it is NOT contrary to the context.
                          You have refused to see that it is contrary to the context, but that seems to be your personal problem.

                          Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                          Rather, the theory comes from the meaning of the word, not the other way around, GO.
                          I don't see that.
                          From my reading of Dr. Walt Brown, he chose an obscure and never used potential meaning of the word רָקִיעַ (firmament) to support the theory he came up with about where the waters from the "fountains of the great deep" came from.


                          Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                          My position is that there are TWO "firmament"s in Genesis 1.

                          The first is the "firmament called Heaven" (1:6-8), which refers to the crust of the earth.
                          The second is the "firmament of the heavens (1:14,15,17,20) which refers to the sky.
                          You can choose to believe the wrong things, but that does not make it right.
                          There is only one firmament in Genesis 1, the sky.


                          Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                          Or maybe you're the one who's misinformed?


                          Strong's h7549

                          - Lexical: רָקִיעַ
                          - Transliteration: raqia
                          - Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
                          - Phonetic Spelling: raw-kee'-ah
                          - Definition: an extended surface, expanse.
                          - Origin: From raqa'; properly, an expanse, i.e. The firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky.
                          - Usage: firmament.
                          - Translated as (count): the firmament (8), in the firmament (3), of the firmament (3), a firmament (1), from above the firmament (1), in firmament (1).






                          Strong's h7554

                          - Lexical: רָקַע
                          - Transliteration: raqa
                          - Part of Speech: Verb
                          - Phonetic Spelling: raw-kah'
                          - Definition: to beat, stamp, beat out, spread out.
                          - Origin: A primitive root; to pound the earth (as a sign of passion); by analogy to expand (by hammering); by implication, to overlay (with thin sheets of metal).
                          - Usage: beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.
                          - Translated as (count): and stamp (1), and stamped (1), And they beat (1), and they were hammered out (1), Have you spread out (1), I spread them out (1), is beaten into plates (1), overspreads it (1), To Him who laid out (1), who spread forth (1), who spreads abroad (1).
                          Yes, I am aware that linguists like to decide which word is the "primitive root" based on the number of letters in the word.
                          But, when you look at which word would have logically come before another, it should be obvious that the word for the expanse of the sky came first and the word for spreading out metal by beating it came later.


                          Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                          No, rather, I am showing you that "heaven" means (not "should mean") MORE than just "sky."
                          Not in Genesis 1.

                          Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                          Then why use a qualifier after the first 5 times in the same chapter?

                          If it ALWAYS means the same thing, then why not just leave out the 4 "of the heavens" words.
                          I don't see any problem with the phrasing.
                          Maybe God had some other reason for the phrasings He used?

                          equidistant letter sequences

                          Genesis 1:1 Starting with the first yod(י) in בראשית b’raisheet, In the beginning, counting every 521 letters, spells, ישוע יכול Y’shua yahkol, Y’shua is able (to have power). 521 is the gematria of אשכר eshkar, gift and יהונתןY’honatan, The Gift of YHWH.
                          Genesis 1:14 Starting with the ayin (ע) in the word מועדים mo’adim, appointed times or seasons, counting every 172 letters from left to right, spells, ישוע Y’shua. (The mo’adim are the festivals that reveal Y’shua and the work of redemption).
                          Genesis 1:14-19 Starting with the last yod (י) in the 19th verse, counting every 69 letters six times from left to right, spells, ישוע עזר Y’shua ahzar, Y’shua to succour or help. This yod is also in the 69th word of the fourth day of creation. (69 is just short of 70, a number of Perfection. Without Y’shua’s help, man will always fall short of Perfection).


                          Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                          GO, how do you explain the fact that God raqa the earth?
                          Those verses are referring to what happened in these verses from Genesis, since these verses are the first mention of earth appearing:

                          Genesis 1:9-10
                          9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
                          10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.



                          You are trying very hard to make the verses in Genesis say the firmament is the earth.
                          I don't have to try at all to see that God gave different names to different things.

                          Genesis 1:5,8,10
                          5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
                          8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
                          10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

                          • Light is day
                          • Dark is night
                          • Firmament is sky (heaven)
                          • Dry land [not firmament] is earth
                          • Waters are seas
                          Learn to read what is written.

                          _____
                          The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                          ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                            What hurts your argument is that there really is no more meaning to use without contradicting the passage itself.
                            Then let me ask you this:

                            Where is "the Deep"?

                            You have refused to see that it is contrary to the context, but that seems to be your personal problem.
                            Rather, you have yet to show how it IS contrary to the context, whereas I have been showing how my position not only fits within the context, but even explains where the flood waters came from, the origins of asteroids, comets, meteorites, why the moon is so beat up on only half of it's surface, the origin of radioactivity, etc.

                            If we take your reading, your position, NONE of those questions are/can be answered from a biblical perspective without appealing to miracles, and which only presents problems for what God created being "very good" when He finished creating, and that there was no death before the fall.

                            I don't see that.
                            Incredulity does not a logical argument make.

                            From my reading of Dr. Walt Brown, he chose an obscure and never used potential meaning of the word רָקִיעַ (firmament) to support the theory he came up with about where the waters from the "fountains of the great deep" came from.
                            You make it seem like that's the only piece he used to form his theory.

                            Yet in reality, it's more than that. See below.

                            You can choose to believe the wrong things, but that does not make it right.
                            There is only one firmament in Genesis 1, the sky.
                            Except that there are multiple (more than 2 - 3) evidences that there are TWO firmaments.

                            Yes, I am aware that linguists like to decide which word is the "primitive root" based on the number of letters in the word.
                            Denying the etymology of a word that challenges your position doesn't help you, GO.

                            But, when you look at which word would have logically come before another, it should be obvious that the word for the expanse of the sky came first and the word for spreading out metal by beating it came later.
                            This at the very least, question begging.

                            Consider the possibility that "spreading out by beating" might have come first, with the usage in Genesis 1:6-8.

                            Not in Genesis 1.
                            Yes, in Genesis 1:6-8.

                            I don't see any problem with the phrasing.

                            Why did Moses use simply "firmament" 5 times in a row, then suddenly switch to using "firmament" with a qualifier phrase, "of the heavens"?

                            "The trunk is five feet wide."

                            "The trunk holds lots of groceries."

                            "The trunk has emergency supplies in it."

                            "The trunk also holds the spare tire."

                            "The trunk is at the back of the vehicle."

                            "The trunk of the elephant is 4 feet long."

                            "The trunk of the elephant is grey."

                            "The trunk of the elephant . . ."

                            etc.



                            This is what I'm getting at.

                            Maybe God had some other reason for the phrasings He used?
                            Like the one I'm showing you?


                            equidistant letter sequences

                            Genesis 1:1 Starting with the first yod(י) in בראשית b’raisheet, In the beginning, counting every 521 letters, spells, ישוע יכול Y’shua yahkol, Y’shua is able (to have power). 521 is the gematria of אשכר eshkar, gift and יהונתןY’honatan, The Gift of YHWH.
                            Genesis 1:14 Starting with the ayin (ע) in the word מועדים mo’adim, appointed times or seasons, counting every 172 letters from left to right, spells, ישוע Y’shua. (The mo’adim are the festivals that reveal Y’shua and the work of redemption).
                            Genesis 1:14-19 Starting with the last yod (י) in the 19th verse, counting every 69 letters six times from left to right, spells, ישוע עזר Y’shua ahzar, Y’shua to succour or help. This yod is also in the 69th word of the fourth day of creation. (69 is just short of 70, a number of Perfection. Without Y’shua’s help, man will always fall short of Perfection).

                            I have no idea what you're trying to say with this...

                            What, you think that just because there's a pattern in how the passage was written means that it must mean... what?

                            The fact is, you don't use a qualifier unless you're trying to distinguish it from a previous usage of a word.

                            And you also seem to be rejecting the possibility that it's BECAUSE Moses described the passage in such a way that not only are we able to see a difference between the two firmaments, but it even results in patterns emerging from the text itself.

                            Moses wasn't stupid, you know.

                            Those verses are referring to what happened in these verses from Genesis, since these verses are the first mention of earth appearing:

                            Genesis 1:9-10
                            9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
                            10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
                            So what, exactly, did God pound out in verses 9-10? What indication do you have that it was "Earth" that God pounded out?

                            Consider that you are looking at the wrong verses, or at the very least, not considering where "Earth" came from.

                            Try looking at verses 6-8 instead, where there's a word that means (even if it's an "obscure meaning") "something pounded out," and maybe you can make the connection between God RAQA (pounding out) the earth and God making the RAQIA in the midst of the waters," and then calling the resulting dry land that appeared by the firmament called Heaven settling and forming "pillars" of crust that hold up the earth...

                            Like this:


                            Raqa and Heaven both refer also to the Earth.

                            Compare:


                            Raqa the earth

                            To Him who laid out [raqa] the earth above the waters,... - Psalm 136:6

                            Thus says God the Lord, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth [raqa] the earth... - Isaiah 42:5

                            Thus says the Lord... Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad [raqa] the earth by Myself; - Isaiah 44:24




                            Heaven on earth

                            He drew a circular horizon on the face of the waters, At the boundary of light and darkness.The pillars of heaven tremble... He stirs up the sea... - Job 26:10-12

                            And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. - Matthew 11:12

                            ... “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; [and] The field is the world... - Matthew 13:24,38

                            And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” - Matthew 16:19 [and 18:18]



                            You are trying very hard to make the verses in Genesis say the firmament is the earth.
                            Which firmament?

                            Firmament called heaven?

                            Or firmament of the heavens?

                            The former is the earth, or rather, the crust of the earth.

                            The latter is the sky.

                            I don't have to try at all to see that God gave different names to different things.
                            Where have I denied that?

                            Do you deny that God can give multiple names to things?

                            Genesis 1:5,8,10
                            5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
                            8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
                            10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

                            • Light is day
                            • Dark is night
                            • No disagreement here.

                            • Firmament is sky (heaven)
                            Heaven refers to the earth too.

                            See the verses I listed above.

                            Which means that firmament can ALSO refer to the earth.

                            Which means that calling it "sky" by default is question begging.

                            It doesn't say that God called the firmament "sky," it says that God called the firmament heaven, and heaven can mean sky, and it can also refer to the earth.

                          • Dry land [not firmament] is earth
                          Here's the problem with this assertion, the way I see it:

                          According to my position, the dry land is a result of the firmament of 1:6-8 settling, going from this on day 2...


                          To this on day 3...


                        • Waters are seas
                        • So the "waters" in 1:2 are seas?

                          Which brings me back to my earlier question...

                          Where is "the deep"?

                          Comment


                          • #44
                            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                            you have yet to show how it IS contrary to the context
                            I have shown you.
                            Each of the meanings in Genesis 1 begin with God calling something by its synonym.
                            The meanings do not change after that, but remain the same throughout Genesis 1.

                            Genesis 1:5,8,10
                            5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
                            8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
                            10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

                            • Light is day
                            • Dark is night
                            • Firmament is sky (heaven)
                            • Dry land [not firmament] is earth
                            • Waters are seas


                            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                            there are multiple (more than 2 - 3) evidences that there are TWO firmaments.
                            A plain reading of the verses show that all the uses of firmament in Genesis 1 are talking about the exact same firmament, despite all your attempts to claim otherwise.

                            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                            The fact is, you don't use a qualifier unless you're trying to distinguish it from a previous usage of a word.
                            You seem to be making up that rule to support your idea.
                            It is not a real linguistic rule.

                            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                            And you also seem to be rejecting the possibility that it's BECAUSE Moses described the passage in such a way that not only are we able to see a difference between the two firmaments, but it even results in patterns emerging from the text itself.

                            Moses wasn't stupid, you know.
                            Moses wasn't stupid, I know.
                            But, what should I say about people that deliberately attempt to change the meaning of the words Moses used because they want it to say something different than it says?
                            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                            Firmament called heaven?

                            Or firmament of the heavens?
                            The two are the same thing.
                            God called the firmament "heaven".
                            Since "firmament" is an obscure word compared to commonly used words like "light", "darkness", "dry land", and "waters", a qualifier was used to reinforce that the meaning of the word "firmament" is "heaven".
                            Learn to read what is written.

                            _____
                            The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                            ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                            Comment


                            • #45
                              Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                              I have shown you.
                              Each of the meanings in Genesis 1 begin with God calling something by its synonym.
                              The meanings do not change after that, but remain the same throughout Genesis 1.
                              Or they do change.

                              For example:

                              Dry land ... is earth
                              V1 says God created the heavens and the erets, ie, the entire planet. That's a different use of the word than in this example.

                              Firmament is sky.
                              The firmament was created separating water from water and was named heaven.

                              Heaven can mean "space" or "abode of God."

                              If you've got water that space could have separated from the oceans, maybe "space" is a reasonable read. As it is, we've got scriptural and physical evidence that the crust of the Earth separated water from water, so "abode of God" seems reasonable. Moreover, God lived on Earth with Adam and Eve.

                              A plain reading of the verses show that all the uses of firmament in Genesis 1 are talking about the exact same firmament, despite all your attempts to claim otherwise.
                              This isn't very convincing.

                              You seem to be making up that rule to support your idea.
                              It's a challenge to the traditional reading. Either the words mean things, or they don't.

                              Why do the early references say "firmament" only, while the latter ones modify it with "of the heavens."

                              Our explanation is that it is to distinguish separate meanings.

                              What should I say about people that deliberately attempt to change the meaning of the words Moses used because they want it to say something different than it says?
                              I don't know about anyone else, but I haven't changed any meanings.

                              Since "firmament" is an obscure word compared to commonly used words like "light", "darkness", "dry land", and "waters", a qualifier was used to reinforce that the meaning of the word "firmament" is "heaven".
                              Are you citing a Hebrew-language authority to make this claim?
                              Where is the evidence for a global flood?
                              E≈mc2
                              "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

                              "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
                              -Bob B.

                              Comment

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