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  • #31
    Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
    so what verse or verses in luke 16:19-31 is Jesus lying ?
    A parable is not a lie. It's a story. Would you call George Lucas a liar for saying "A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away..."?

    Unlike Star Wars however, the parables of Jesus were always stories with the purpose of conveying a lesson, rather than entertainment, but they were stories nonetheless.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Freedm View Post
      A parable is not a lie. It's a story. Would you call George Lucas a liar for saying "A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away..."?
      all of star wars is a lie


      Unlike Star Wars however, the parables of Jesus were always stories with the purpose of conveying a lesson, rather than entertainment, but they were stories nonetheless.
      all of luke 16:19-31 is true

      so what verse or verses in luke 16:19-31 is Jesus lying ?

      so when Jesus said "But Abraham said, Son, remember ... "
      did Abraham say "Son, remember ... " or is Jesus lying ?

      Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things. But now he is comforted and you are tormented.

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      • #33
        If you can't understand the difference between a story and a lie, then this conversation ends.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Freedm View Post
          If you can't understand the difference between a story and a lie, then this conversation ends.
          so when Jesus said "But Abraham said, Son, remember ... "
          did Abraham say "Son, remember ... " or is Jesus lying ?



          when Jesus says "Abraham said"
          and
          you say that Abraham never said anything that is you saying Jesus lied



          so Freedm you are unable to defend your theology as scriptural truth


          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
            so when Jesus said "But Abraham said, Son, remember ... "
            did Abraham say "Son, remember ... " or is Jesus lying ?



            when Jesus says "Abraham said"
            and
            you say that Abraham never said anything that is you saying Jesus lied



            so Freedm you are unable to defend your theology as scriptural truth


            When he said "Abraham" he was referring to Abraham the character in his story, not the real Abraham. Don't you know that Jesus used symbolism in all his parables? Why would this one be any different?

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Freedm View Post
              When he said "Abraham" he was referring to Abraham the character in his story, not the real Abraham. Don't you know that Jesus used symbolism in all his parables? Why would this one be any different?



              Jesus never said anything about Abraham that was not true

              When Jesus said Abraham he was talking about the real ,one and only Father Abraham

              Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham



              BTW not a parable

              the verse preceding the recounting of the rich man & Lazarus not a parable

              Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

              moreover no bible tiles the rich man & Lazarus recounting as a parable




              no symbolism , the rich man wanted to warn his brothers of the fire he is in
              and Abraham said " If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." kinda like you .


              Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
              Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
              Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
              Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

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              • #37
                So let me get this straight. You believe that people in heaven can see and talk to the people in hell?

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Freedm View Post
                  So let me get this straight. You believe that people in heaven can see and talk to the people in hell?
                  no

                  I believe this:
                  Luk 16:26 And besides all this, there is a great chasm fixed between you and us; so that they desiring to pass from here to you cannot, nor can they pass over to us from there.

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                  • #39
                    But didn't Jesus say that Abraham was talking to the rich man across the chasm? And didn't you say that Jesus didn't say anything that wasn't true? So if you think that story is all true, as in "it actually happened", then how can you now say that you don't believe people in heaven can talk to the people in hell?

                    It seems you're contradicting yourself. You either believe it actually happened, or you believe it's a parable. It has to be one of the two.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Freedm View Post
                      But didn't Jesus say that Abraham was talking to the rich man across the chasm? And didn't you say that Jesus didn't say anything that wasn't true? So if you think that story is all true, as in "it actually happened", then how can you now say that you don't believe people in heaven can talk to the people in hell?

                      It seems you're contradicting yourself. You either believe it actually happened, or you believe it's a parable. It has to be one of the two.
                      no

                      you are mistaken

                      heaven is not beside hell , Abraham's side was.

                      Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by WeberHome View Post
                        .
                        People have been filtering into perdition not only since the time of Christ, but since before the Step Pyramid of Djoser, and even before the Flood. I won't speculate how many years that might be, but h.sapiens is thought by some to have achieved full behavioral modernity something like 50,000 years ago. (There's new findings suggesting that human existence goes as far back as 150-300,000 years) Anyway; whether that extends clear on back to Adam and Eve I have no clue; but just think: if it does, then Cain and others from his era have been down in the netherworld all this time.

                        It's difficult for the human mind to appreciate 50,000 years let alone 300,000. I've been on the Earth for just 75, and I've noticed that my childhood is so far in the past to me now as to seem more like a fantasy than a memory. But you know; when you're talking about eternity, 50,000 years isn't even a drop in the bucket. If it were a drop in the bucket, it would be a bucket with no bottom; which is roughly akin to the futility of a gnat attempting to drink up the Atlantic ocean.

                        But just think: time stands still in hell: it's for the now; it's an existence. People who arrived there yesterday didn't begin doing time in jail like Martha Stewart expecting to get out some day; nor is perdition a temporary tour of duty like shipping out to Afghanistan. No, people in hell are in it as perpetual residents; they're in a rut.

                        They go year, after year, after year, after year, with no relief from the discomfort: no vacations, no recreation, no reading materials, and no hobbies-- there's absolutely nothing to do but reminisce. The mental atrophy, and the boredom that must result from that kind of mindless existence is beyond estimation.

                        In life, everybody enjoys God's blessings; even the really bad people. We're all breathing fresh air, basking in sunshine, drinking cool water, savoring tasty foods, listening to birds chirp, star gazing at night, throwing snow balls at each other in winter, river rafting, fishing, snow skiing, tending gardens, pruning shrubs, greeting friends during the holidays, spending days with grandkids; and all that sort of thing. In the Bible's hell, there are no blessings of any kind at all: only perpetual sadness, vexation, despair, and want.

                        In hell's unruly society; it's reasonable to expect quarrels, bickering, hard feelings, vendettas, rivalry, selfishness, insensitivity, irritation, aggravation, and ugly words exchanged between people. Is there really any good reason to be courteous and/or respect your fellow man's human rights in the Bible's hell; or to be kind, forgiving, affable, genial, courteous, cordial, charitable, altruistic, tolerant, generous, and patient? I was once discussing the netherworld with a co-worker and he remarked: "Hell won't be so bad; I'll have plenty of friends down there". Yes, he probably will have lots of friends in hell; but I really don't think he should count on them being friendly.

                        And the din: think of the volume of noise down there with all the wailing and sobbing, and the moaning, shrieking, yelping, howling, gnashing teeth, and the constant complaining. I can only imagine how annoying it must be in hell with its thousands and millions of people making all that kind of racket.

                        But just imagine bringing with you a craving for tobacco with none available. Or longing for a cocktail with no liquor in sight. A desire for music, with no way to produce it. A skill for writing, with no pen and paper. Yearning for a walk out in nature, with no world to do it in.

                        People in hell will never again smell a sea breeze, sit in the shade of a tree, take deep breaths of mountain-fresh air, play at sports, hear a bird chirp, see a sunset, watch a lunar eclipse, jog in the park, strum a guitar, enjoy a Christmas dinner with loved ones; nor make little pigs of themselves gobbling barbecued spare ribs and corn on the 4th of July.

                        Sports and recreation are gone: no more World Series, no more Super Bowl, no more Olympics, no more Las Vegas, no more Indian casinos, no more lottery, no more Lego World, no more Sea World, no more NASCAR, no more golf, no more surfing, et al.

                        No baths, no showers, no sleep, no TV, no radio, no iPods, no computers, no Twitter, no texting, no FaceBook, no Instagram, no YouTube, no MySpace, no internet, no clean sheets, no breakfast, no lunch, and no dinner. No snacks, no gum, no candy, no flowers, no parks, no rivers, no snow, no seasons, no picnics, no malls, no fast food, no trades, no careers, no trendy fashions, no jewelry, no cosmetics, no concerts, no operas, and no hobbies; absolutely nothing of this world that brings people the pleasures and the satisfactions of just being alive.
                        _
                        Hmm, what could a sadistic entity do to top "eternal misery" of the like you describe? Make things even more unbearable? But hey, if a "loving" one does it?

                        I could stamp on a whole load of insects and be cruel to life forms all over the place if I wanted to. I don't.
                        Well this is fun isn't it?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Arthur Brain View Post
                          Hmm, what could a sadistic entity do to top "eternal misery" of the like you describe? Make things even more unbearable? But hey, if a "loving" one does it?

                          I could stamp on a whole load of insects and be cruel to life forms all over the place if I wanted to. I don't.
                          wow

                          you're nicer than God

                          yay you

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
                            no

                            you are mistaken

                            heaven is not beside hell , Abraham's side was.

                            Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
                            "Abraham's side"? What is this now? Is this some other place that people go to when they're not quite worthy of heaven? And why is it right next to hell? Please explain what you mean by this.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Hades / The Grave

                              .
                              Originally posted by ok doser View Post
                              wow [he's] nicer than God
                              Are humans more merciful than God? Yes, they are because humans don't have to always go by the book.

                              For example; former US President Richard Nixon deserved prison for certain aspects of his conduct while in public office, but his successor, former US Vice President Gerald Ford, arbitrarily pardoned him.

                              God pardons people too, but never arbitrarily. Justice has to be adequately satisfied first before He can let people walk.



                              Originally posted by Arthur Brain View Post
                              I could stamp on a whole load of insects and be cruel to life forms all over the place if I wanted to. I don't.
                              You would not hesitate to vigorously stamp on a whole load of insects and be cruel to life forms all over the place were they to become a menace; e.g. fleas, ants, hornets, horse flies, mosquitoes, spiders, wolves, scorpions, bears, rattlesnakes, termites, etc.

                              The critters, not knowing any better, would perceive your conduct as cruel and tyrannical; whereas you would justify your conduct as self defense. If the critters had an IQ equal to yours, they would readily see that reducing their numbers is the wise thing to do, and although they may not like what you do to them, in the end they would have to agree that their eradication is for the greater good.

                              FAQ: But why hell? It's so extreme. Why not just exterminate people like insects and get it over with instead of forever baking them in an oven and/or simmering them in a lake of brimstone?

                              A: I am convinced that if someone bright enough, and capable enough, to invent and construct an entire cosmos with all of its forms of life matter and energy, can think of no other way to adequately satisfy justice other than Jesus' crucifixion, then there's just simply no other viable option; because if there was another option besides Jesus' crucifixion, then an IQ such as God's would've thought of it by now.
                              _

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by WeberHome View Post
                                .


                                Are humans more merciful than God? Yes, they are because humans don't have to always go by the book.

                                For example; former US President Richard Nixon deserved prison for certain aspects of his conduct while in public office, but his successor, former US Vice President Gerald Ford, arbitrarily pardoned him.

                                God pardons people too, but never arbitrarily. Justice has to be adequately satisfied first before He can let people walk.





                                You would not hesitate to vigorously stamp on a whole load of insects and be cruel to life forms all over the place were they to become a menace; e.g. fleas, ants, hornets, horse flies, mosquitoes, spiders, wolves, scorpions, bears, rattlesnakes, termites, etc.

                                The critters, not knowing any better, would perceive your conduct as cruel and tyrannical; whereas you would justify your conduct as self defense. If the critters had an IQ equal to yours, they would readily see that reducing their numbers is the wise thing to do, and although they may not like what you do to them, in the end they would have to agree that their eradication is for the greater good.

                                FAQ: But why hell? It's so extreme. Why not just exterminate people like insects and get it over with instead of forever baking them in an oven and/or simmering them in a lake of brimstone?

                                A: I am convinced that if someone bright enough, and capable enough, to invent and construct an entire cosmos with all of its forms of life matter and energy, can think of no other way to adequately satisfy justice other than Jesus' crucifixion, then there's just simply no other viable option; because if there was another option besides Jesus' crucifixion, then an IQ such as God's would've thought of it by now.
                                _
                                look at your own post and think on it awhile. What the heck type of "god" are you portraying? A one that creates life whereby there's no other option but to have beings interminably suffer if they don't "get it right" in a handful of years? Would "love" have that as part of the plan from the outset?
                                Well this is fun isn't it?

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