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Hades / The Grave

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  • #16
    Re: Hades / The Grave

    .
    Something I've been curious about for some time now is why the rich man in Luke's narrative arrived in a place of flame and torment while the poor man was taken to a place of comfort.

    Well; one thing I strongly suspect is that at the time of the incident recorded in Luke 16:19-31, Christ was not yet born in the land of Israel; so then, there was not yet a gospel to believe in the New Testament.

    Abraham mentions the Old Testament's law and its prophets; which apparently the rich man had not studied, nor taken seriously; consequently he was impious and a complete failure at complying with the covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. Well, if so; then that was a fatal error.

    Deut 27:26 . . Cursed is the man who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them out.

    The grammatical tense of that curse is present tense rather than future, indicating that the curse is instant, i.e. no delay and no waiting period; ergo: scofflaws are walking dead men; and if they cross over into the next life as dead men, then their fate will be just as solidly sealed as the rich man's fate.
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    • #17
      Re: Hades / The Grave

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      Luke 16:27-31 . . I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.

      . . Abraham replied: They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.

      . . No, father Abraham-- he said --but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.

      . . He said to him: If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.

      Abraham was a prophet (Gen 20:7) which means he was an inspired man. As such, he would be privy to information that would normally be unavailable to the average rank and file pew warmer. However prophets aren't meant to keep what they hear from God to themselves; they're messengers, e.g. Abraham was a teacher/mentor. (Gen 18:19)

      So then, I think it's fairly safe to assume the information that Abraham passed on to the rich man came to Abraham via inspiration; which, if so, means that our reaction to his remarks should be very different than the rich man's. He brushed aside what Abraham told him; but we, I should hope, are wiser than that impious dunce because we know that a prophet's teachings are the voice of God.

      I think it's pretty safe to assert that if people won't listen to Abraham, then neither will they listen to Jesus.
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      • #18
        Originally posted by WeberHome View Post
        .
        Luke 16:19-31 is commonly alleged to be a parable; which of course implies that the story is fiction; and some would even say fantasy. But the parable theory has a fatal flaw. Abraham is not a fictional character: he's a real-life man; the father of the Hebrew people, held in very high esteem by at least three of the world's prominent religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. And he's also the friend of God (Isa 41:8). I simply cannot believe that Jesus Christ-- a man famous among normal Christians for his honesty and integrity --would say something untrue about a famous real-life man; especially about one of his Father's buddies.
        You're really applying modern cultural standards to the ancient texts of the Bible. Doing that makes the texts say something they probably don't.

        A modern example might be the story of George Washington and the cherry tree. He supposedly admitted to chopping down the tree and said "I cannot tell a lie". The story itself is almost certainly untrue, but it still often gets referred to when talking about Washington because it is a way to illustrate his moral character. Jesus very frequently takes stories told by other rabbis and puts a "spin" on them. It's really the "spin" that is important and would have made an impact on the original hearers. Having us modern people try to ascribe a news article aspect to a story like that is problematic at best.

        And on top of that, the story quotes Abraham a number of times. Well; if the story is fiction, then Jesus Christ is on record testifying that Abraham said things that he didn't really say; which is a clear violation of the commandment that prohibits bearing false witness.
        _
        This isn't a witness in court that's going to get someone condemned. All parables are "fiction", that doesn't make them false witness or wrong.
        “We do not believe in God because we need to explain this or that feature of the world. That is what science is for. We believe in God because we see something deeper in the world, something that transcends the scientific explanations.” - Karl Giberson Ph.D.



        - The science and faith of theistic evolution explained.

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        • #19
          .
          Originally posted by Alate_One View Post
          This isn't a witness in court that's going to get someone condemned.
          Every word spoken is being recorded and on track to be examined in court.

          Matt 12:36-37 . . I say unto you; that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

          Jesus had to be especially careful with his teachings in order to prevent them being used against him.

          Christians commonly mouth that they believe Jesus was truthful, but really they don't. In their hearts he's just as much a tale-spinner as Stephen King and M. Night Shyamalan.

          John 8:46 . . If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me?
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          • #20
            Re: Hades / The Grave

            .
            Former US President John F. Kennedy was assassinated Friday, Nov 22, 1963 @ 12:30 p.m. by one Lee Harvey Oswald.

            Though Oswald succeeded in terminating the life of Mr. Kennedy's body, according to Matt 10:28 and Luke 12:4-5 he did not succeed in terminating the life of Mr. Kennedy's soul. No, that part of the former president's existence survived.

            Matt 10:28 is very good evidence that normal human existence consists of at least two components: soul and body; which is corroborated by 1Thess 5:23.

            The million dollar question is: Where was Mr. Kennedy's soul taken when his body passed away?

            Well, one of the biblical answers to that question is located in Luke 16:19-31, viz: Mr. Kennedy's soul was taken to either the rich man's location, or it was taken to Abraham's.
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            Last edited by WeberHome; September 15th, 2019, 07:28 AM.

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            • #21
              Re: Hades / The Grave

              .
              Eccl 9:5 . .The dead do not know anything.

              Ecc 9:10 . .Whatever your hand finds to do, verily, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in sheol where you are going.

              Ecclesiastes is the Bible's fun book because it's chock full of normal thinking instead of religious dogma. Ecclesiastes requires very little interpretation as anybody who's been around the block a time or two can easily relate to its thoughts.

              Bible students are often baffled as to why Solomon's remarks in the book of Ecclesiastes sometimes contradict Christ's teachings in the New Testament. Well; the answer to that is actually pretty simple.

              Solomon wasn't inspired to record his observations of life from the perspective of an enlightened man who's privy to knowledge beyond the scope of empirical evidence and human experience; rather, from the perspective of a man under the sun; viz: a down to earth thinking man whose perception of reality is moderated by what he can see for himself going on around him in the physical universe; which of course results in an evaluation of life on earth as seen from the earth rather than an evaluation of life on earth as seen from heaven.

              In other words: Ecclesiastes isn't the word of God, it's the word of a philosopher; his own personal world view, and it's so identified right at the gun. (Ecc 1:1)

              Solomon was the brightest intellectual of his day. However; it is not wise to interpret Christ's teachings by citing Solomon's because according to Matt 12:42, Luke 11:31, John 1:1 and Col 2:3; Jesus' wisdom is superior to Solomon's, and has more authority.

              In addition: Jesus Christ spoke the words of God (John 3:34, John 8:26, John 8:28, John 12:49, John 14:24) whereas there is not the slightest textual evidence in the book of Ecclesiastes that Solomon spoke the words of God when he wrote it. Caveat Lector.
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              • #22
                Re: Hades / The Grave

                .
                Luke 16:27-31 . . I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.

                My guess is that the rich man was concerned because he knew all too well that his brothers didn't believe in a hell. I suspect that they felt, as many do, that when their brother breathed his last, he ceased to exist. In other words; the rich man hoped that his brothers would be interested to find out that he was still conscious somewhere beyond the grave.

                Luke 16:29 . . But Abraham said; "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them"

                According to Abraham, the Old Testament reveals the existence of a hell; not only the Prophets, but also Moses; viz: the Pentateuch.

                I've thus far had no luck locating a hell in the Pentateuch, but the Prophets have at least one mention that really stands out.

                Isa 66:23-24 . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me; says The Lord.

                . . . And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.

                But of one thing about his brothers that the rich man was convinced: they were not Bible believers. So he protested:

                Luke 16:30 . . No, father Abraham

                In other words: the rich man was all too aware that the Old Testament's revelations about hell would've just bounced off his brothers like a Red Ryder BB gun off the armor plating of a Russian tank. The really creative ones might've even written off the OT's teachings as parables that have no basis in reality.

                Luke 16:30-31 . . He said; "If someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent. Abraham said to him; "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."

                That's still true. Things like after-death experiences, and near-death experiences, typically have very little influence on secular thinking.
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                Last edited by WeberHome; September 17th, 2019, 06:50 PM.

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                • #23
                  Re: Hades / The Grave

                  .
                  Luke 16:29 . . But Abraham said; "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them"

                  The first five books of the Bible, a.k.a. the Pentateuch, are attributed to Moses. I can't find anything in them where Moses clearly wrote about hell; but I have found several places in the Pentateuch where Moses wrote of a location called sheol (sheh-ole').

                  Sheol first appears in Gen 37:35, and thereafter six more places in Moses' writings. Apparently the rich man and his five brothers either overlooked sheol, never bothered to research it, or just simply discarded it as fantasy.

                  Sheol is commonly interpreted as the grave. Well; the specific Hebrew word for grave in the Pentateuch is qeber (keh'-ber) a.k.a. qibrah (kib-raw'); which first appears in Gen 23:4 and thereafter eleven more places in Moses' writings.

                  The Greek equivalent of sheol is haides (hah'-dace) which first appears in Matt 11:23 and thereafter ten more places in the New Testament.

                  Haides is commonly interpreted as the grave. Well; the specific Greek word for grave is mnemeion (mnay-mi'-on) which first appears at Matt 8:28, and thereafter forty-one more places in the New Testament.

                  The rich man was no doubt familiar with qeber/mnemeion from attending a number of funerals; fully expecting the day when he himself would be laid to rest. But the rich man didn't anticipate sheol/haides; that he did not expect. Consequently the afterlife caught him completely by surprise like an unsuspecting bear stepping on the trigger of a powerful spring-loaded steel trap.

                  The man's five brothers were on the same track, coming after him totally unprepared for the tsunami of shock, terror, and awe set to greet their arrival. For some families, the only thing they have to look forward to in the afterlife isn't Abraham's bosom, rather, a sad reunion in fire and despair.
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                  Last edited by WeberHome; September 18th, 2019, 11:05 AM.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Haces / The Grave

                    .
                    Luke 16:29 . . But Abraham said; "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them"

                    A very useful Prophet in any discussion of the afterlife is Jonah because he was actually there and saw it for himself.

                    Jonah 2:1-2 . . Jonah prayed to Jehovah his God from the stomach of the fish, and he said: "I called out of my distress to The Lord, and He answered me. I cried for help from the depth of sheol.

                    Jonah 2:6 . . I descended to the roots of the mountains. The earth with its bars was around me forever

                    The roots of the mountains aren't located in the tummy of a fish; they're way down deep in the ground.

                    Jonah's afterlife adventure not only took him deep underground to sheol, but it also included a resurrection.

                    Jonah 2:6 . . But Thou hast brought up my life from the pit, O Jehovah my God.

                    The Hebrew word for "pit" in that verse is the very same word for pit in Ps 16:8-10; which Acts 2:25-31 verifies is speaking of putrefaction.

                    Matt 12:39-40 . . As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth.

                    There's a popular theory going around that when people pass away, they cease to exist. Well; were that true, then Christ would've ceased to exist when he died on the cross, and it would've been necessary to first re-create him before his corpse could be restored to life. It would've also been necessary to first re-create Jonah too before his corpse could be restored to life. The "cease to exist" theory holds up pretty well in science but it falls flat in the Bible.

                    Now when you think about it; Jesus' corpse was never in the heart of the Earth. It wasn't even in the Earth's soil. His remains were laid to rest on the surface of the Earth in a rock-hewn tomb.

                    The only way that Jesus could possibly be in a tomb on the surface of the Earth while at the same time in the heart of the Earth; was for the man and his body to part company and go their separate ways.

                    Same for Jonah. The only way that he could be in a fish's tummy while at the same time at the roots of the mountains was for the man and his body to part company and go their separate ways.

                    Jesus and Jonah are the two best biblical proofs I know of that there is an afterlife; and that part of it is located somewhere deep underground. For a great many people who've gone on before us, its discovery has been a terrible disappointment.
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                    • #25
                      Re: Hades / The Grave

                      .
                      People are able to terminate each other's bodies, but according to Jesus' statements they are unable to terminate each other's souls.

                      Matt 10:28 . . Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:

                      Luke 12:4 . . Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

                      Well: if ordinary people's souls survive the termination of their body, then I think it's 100% safe to assume that Jesus Christ's soul survived crucifixion.

                      Ps 16:9-10 . . My flesh also will rest in hope. For You will not leave my soul in sheol, nor will You allow Your holy one to see corruption.

                      Peter verified that the prophet David was speaking of Jesus when he wrote that passage in the Psalms. (Acts 2:25-27)

                      1• Jesus Christ attested that the soul survives the death of the body.

                      2• David's and Peter's statements indicate that Jesus' soul was taken to sheol/hades when he passed away on the cross.

                      3• David's and Peter's statements indicate that sheol and hades are one and the same place.

                      4• Christ and the prophet Jonah corroborate each other's statements that sheol/hades is located somewhere deep underground.

                      5• Jonah prayed while he was in sheol/hades; thus verifying that the people residing there are not in hibernation; instead are fully conscious and able to conduct sensible, intelligent conversations.
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                      • #26
                        Re: Hades / The Grave

                        .
                        Ps 146:3-4 . . Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

                        Some people, Christians no less, honestly believe the passage above teaches that people cease to exist when they pass away; but watch as I misquote it.

                        "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his mind dies"

                        No, it doesn't say his mind dies, it says his thoughts die; and there is a significant difference between one's mind and their cogitations.

                        Anyway, if people really did cease to exist when their body expires, then Christ would've ceased to exist when he passed away on the cross so that in order to restore his body back to life, it would've been necessary to create him back to existence. In other words; for three days and three nights, there would've been no Christ. No; I'm pretty sure Ps 146:3-4 is saying something very different.

                        Consider all those people who perished in the World Trade Center, in the Japan and Indonesia tsunamis, in the Haiti earthquake, and the people gunned down during an outdoor concert in Las Vegas not too long ago. None of them woke that day planning on it being their last on earth. No, on the contrary; they had people to see, places to go, and things to do: but in very short order; whatever was on their minds lost its importance-- their priorities went right out the window and became no more significant than green cheese on the moon.

                        All their plans, their dreams, their schedules, their appointments, their schemes, their problems, their aspirations, and their loves went right down the tubes as they were suddenly confronted with a whole new reality to cope with.

                        Sudden death can happen to anybody in the form of a stray bullet from a drive-by, a force of nature, gas explosion, choking on a piece of meat, electrocution, a drunk driver, a fall in the bath tub; bricks dropped from an overpass, or any number of out-of-the-blue surprises like the big truck that mowed down a crowd of people celebrating Bastille Day in France July 14, 2016

                        People need to start thinking about the afterlife now, while they have the chance; rather then risk being caught off guard by sudden death where there will be no time to think; and they find themselves suddenly thrust into the afterlife a lot sooner than they ever expected when a car accident, train wreck, plane crash, crime, heart attack, or stroke puts an abrupt end to every plan they ever made.

                        "The rich man said: I beg you, father, that you send Lazarus to my father's house-- for I have five brothers --that he may warn them, lest they also come to this place of torment." (Luke 16:27-28)

                        I suspect very strongly that the rich man was only too aware that his brothers were rational, intelligent men who saw no sensible reason to believe in an afterlife; after all, even Solomon said so. (Ecc 9:5, Ecc 9:10)

                        But Abraham didn't recommend Solomon, rather, he recommended much higher authorities.

                        "But Abraham said: They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them." (Luke 16:29)

                        The Bible says that Abraham himself was a prophet (Gen 20:7). Had the rich man believed the book of Genesis he would've listened to Abraham instead of arguing with him.

                        What can be supposed ever happened to the five brothers? Well; they believed neither Moses nor the Prophets; so I think it's safe to assume the worst: their fate was the same as the brother who went before them.
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                        Last edited by WeberHome; September 25th, 2019, 03:47 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Hades / The Grave

                          .
                          FAQ: So there's an afterlife. What am I supposed to do about it?

                          A: Initiate a rapport with heaven. This is done via mediator.

                          1Tim 2:5-6 . . For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men

                          Simply find a private moment to speak up and tell Jesus that you're aware there's an afterlife and that that you're concerned about coming out on the wrong side of it. That'll get the ball rolling.

                          Be assured that your concern, if it's honest, won't end up in the round file.

                          John 6:37 . . All that the Father gives me shall come to me, and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out.
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                          Last edited by WeberHome; September 26th, 2019, 07:32 AM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by WeberHome View Post
                            .
                            The comments and questions herein are relative to Luke 16:19-31.

                            How is it that the rich man and Abraham were able to see from their own grave into each other's grave? Do dead people have X-ray vision? Do they have any vision at all let alone X-ray?

                            Do dead people actually have the ability to communicate with other dead people? You'd think that dead people would be deaf and mute seeing as how they're deceased and no longer sentient.

                            What is the nature of the barrier that existed between Abraham's grave and the rich man's grave? The story suggests dead people could, and would, visit one another's graves were it not for a barrier separating them.

                            From whence did the rich man assume that Lazarus could fetch water? Was Lazarus' grave adjacent to an aquifer or some such?

                            The story suggests that Abraham and Lazarus shared the same grave, i.e. Lazarus' corpse was laid to rest with Abraham's corpse.

                            The story tells that Lazarus' pall bearers were angels. Is that common, or was Lazarus' funeral a special event?
                            _
                            Your OP reveals the obvious fallacies in the story. It's a parable, nothing more. It's designed to convey a meaning, but it's not a reflection of reality.

                            Dead people can not talk to each other. They're dead.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by WeberHome View Post
                              .[font=verdana][size=3]
                              Eccl 9:5 . .The dead do not know anything.

                              Bible students are often baffled as to why Solomon's remarks in the book of Ecclesiastes sometimes contradict Christ's teachings in the New Testament. Well; the answer to that is actually pretty simple.
                              I would argue that Solomon in fact did not contradict Jesus. However, Jesus spoke more of spiritual things, which can be easily misunderstood so they appear to be contradicting each other.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Freedm View Post
                                Your OP reveals the obvious fallacies in the story. It's a parable, nothing more. It's designed to convey a meaning, but it's not a reflection of reality.

                                Dead people can not talk to each other. They're dead.
                                so what verse or verses in luke 16:19-31 is Jesus lying ?

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