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Salvation on the Principle of Grace

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  • ECT: Salvation on the Principle of Grace

    Here we read that Peter, who lived under the law, said that his salvation was according to "grace," just like the Gentiles were saved:
    "God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:8-11).

    Grace has commonly been described as unmerited favor. And here Paul states in no uncertian terms that if it takes works to be saved then that salvation cannot be described as being of "grace":
    "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:4-5).

    Despite these facts Clete proves that he doesn't even understand salvation on the principle of grace because he argues that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith plus works:

    Originally posted by Clete View Post
    One saved by grace through faith plus works (James 2), the other by grace through faith only apart from works (Romans 4).
    Here are some remarks on the subject of the Greek word translated "grace" from an article titled "Grace Upon Grace" written by John W. Ritenbaugh:
    "The apostles took an ordinary Greek word, 'charis'—and that word has been translated into English as grace—but they turned it into a word of very profound theological and spiritual significance.

    The word all by itself, as it would be used in secular Greek, is 'gratifying in manner,' or we might say, 'that which causes delight.' It is the causing of it that gives the word its distinctive usage. The emphasis of the word is on the causes. It has the delight that we receive.

    The apostles used this word to indicate unearned or unmerited favor. It always has the idea of something completely undeserved, something that we could never have achieved by ourselves. For example, John 1:14 teaches us that God came to earth to live and to die, and that is not something which humanity could manipulate or deserve because we earned it.

    It was something that He freely did. He gave of Himself. Men did not have this in mind, that God would come here and demand that this occur because we are so good and we need to be saved. God, on His own, decided that He would use this means to introduce Himself into the flow of life on earth and provide man with a Savior.

    In addition to this, the word also has the idea of beauty contained within it. Its opposite, its antonym, in the Greek is 'erga,' which is translated into the English 'work.' Now 'work' or 'erga' carries the connotation of something deserved because it has been earned by conduct or activity.

    So you have these two opposites, these two contrasts. Grace on the one side, something that is given and provides delight, favor that is unearned. On the other side, we have 'erga'—work—something that is earned. It is merited because of things that we have done."

  • #2
    No amount of works can get you into heaven. Therefore, I need the grace and mercy of God the Father. However, "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" (James 2:17). If I have faith my life will show it.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Bradley D View Post
      No amount of works can get you into heaven. Therefore, I need the grace and mercy of God the Father. However, "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" (James 2:17). If I have faith my life will show it.
      Yes, faith will usually result in good works but James makes it plain that the new birth is a result faith and faith alone:

      "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:17-18).

      That matches what Peter said about the new birth:

      "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
        Here we read that Peter, who lived under the law, said that his salvation was according to "grace," just like the Gentiles were saved:
        "God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:8-11).

        Grace has commonly been described as unmerited favor. And here Paul states in no uncertian terms that if it takes works to be saved then that salvation cannot be described as being of "grace":
        "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:4-5).

        Despite these facts Clete proves that he doesn't even understand salvation on the principle of grace because he argues that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith plus works:



        Here are some remarks on the subject of the Greek word translated "grace" from an article titled "Grace Upon Grace" written by John W. Ritenbaugh:
        "The apostles took an ordinary Greek word, 'charis'—and that word has been translated into English as grace—but they turned it into a word of very profound theological and spiritual significance.

        The word all by itself, as it would be used in secular Greek, is 'gratifying in manner,' or we might say, 'that which causes delight.' It is the causing of it that gives the word its distinctive usage. The emphasis of the word is on the causes. It has the delight that we receive.

        The apostles used this word to indicate unearned or unmerited favor. It always has the idea of something completely undeserved, something that we could never have achieved by ourselves. For example, John 1:14 teaches us that God came to earth to live and to die, and that is not something which humanity could manipulate or deserve because we earned it.

        It was something that He freely did. He gave of Himself. Men did not have this in mind, that God would come here and demand that this occur because we are so good and we need to be saved. God, on His own, decided that He would use this means to introduce Himself into the flow of life on earth and provide man with a Savior.

        In addition to this, the word also has the idea of beauty contained within it. Its opposite, its antonym, in the Greek is 'erga,' which is translated into the English 'work.' Now 'work' or 'erga' carries the connotation of something deserved because it has been earned by conduct or activity.

        So you have these two opposites, these two contrasts. Grace on the one side, something that is given and provides delight, favor that is unearned. On the other side, we have 'erga'—work—something that is earned. It is merited because of things that we have done."
        I have a little to add to your post.

        I think the most important phrase in Acts 15: 8-11 is, quoting from the ESV, "made no distinction between us and them". God treated Jew and Gentile exactly alike. This idea is found in multiple places in the NT.
        Acts 11:12 And the Spirit told me to go with them, making no distinction. These six brothers also accompanied me, and we entered the man's house.
        Romans 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
        Ephesians 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
        Acts 10: 28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.
        Notice also that when Peter is saying it is unlawful for a Jew to associate with anyone of another nation he is referring to the oral law, not the laws of God for the OT makes it very plain there was to be no difference made in how an Israelite/Jew was to treat a Gentile/stranger compared to how he was to treat a fellow Israelite/Jew. There was to be one law for both and the Israelite/Jew was to treat the Gentile/stranger as fellow citizen. Once a stranger/Gentile had joined into the worship of Jehovah they were to be considered as one born into the nation of Israel. There are quite a few scriptures in the OT that say this.

        Acts 10:34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.
        “Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”
        ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

        “One and God make a majority.”
        ― Frederick Douglass

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
          Yes, faith will usually result in good works but James makes it plain that the new birth is a result faith and faith alone:

          "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:17-18).

          That matches what Peter said about the new birth:

          "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).
          Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
          Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
          Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
          Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
          Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

          According to Peter, if they did not submit to the ritual of water baptism they were not saved and could not enter into the kingdom as priest. Water baptism is a work that was required.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
            According to Peter, if they did not submit to the ritual of water baptism they were not saved and could not enter into the kingdom as priest. Water baptism is a work that was required.
            The baptism spoken of there is in regard to fellowship and not to salvation. In the Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society David R. Anderson writes:
            "We are suggesting that John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter had dual ministries. One was to call the nation of Israel back into fellowship with Yahweh. The covenant relationship had long since been established. The nation of Israel did not need a new relationship with God. But they were sorely lacking in fellowship...John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter were all trying to persuade Israel to repentance and turning that would bring them back to a refreshing fellowship with God...Now as a nation they needed to repent and turn (Acts 3:19) in order to have fellowship with God" (Anderson, "The National Repentance of Israel," Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society, Autumn 1998, Volume 11:21).

            The baptism of Acts 2:38 was for the purpose of cleansing those who were already saved to bring them back to "fellowship" with the Lord. It served the same purpose as the "confession" of sin which the Apostle John speaks of here:

            "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth...If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"
            (1 Jn.1:5-6,9).

            Here John is saying that if we "confess" our sins then we will be cleansed from the things which interrupt our "fellowship" with God. The baptism of repentance was also in regard to confessing sins:
            "In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand...Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins" (Mt.3:1-2,5-6).

            If it takes doing the work of submitting to the rite of water baptism to be saved then that salvation cannot be described as being of grace:

            "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness"
            (Ro.4:4-5).

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
              The baptism spoken of there is in regard to fellowship and not to salvation. In the Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society David R. Anderson writes:
              "We are suggesting that John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter had dual ministries. One was to call the nation of Israel back into fellowship with Yahweh. The covenant relationship had long since been established. The nation of Israel did not need a new relationship with God. But they were sorely lacking in fellowship...John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter were all trying to persuade Israel to repentance and turning that would bring them back to a refreshing fellowship with God...Now as a nation they needed to repent and turn (Acts 3:19) in order to have fellowship with God" (Anderson, "The National Repentance of Israel," Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society, Autumn 1998, Volume 11:21).

              The baptism of Acts 2:38 was for the purpose of cleansing those who were already saved to bring them back to "fellowship" with the Lord. It served the same purpose as the "confession" of sin which the Apostle John speaks of here:

              "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth...If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"
              (1 Jn.1:5-6,9).

              Here John is saying that if we "confess" our sins then we will be cleansed from the things which interrupt our "fellowship" with God. The baptism of repentance was also in regard to confessing sins:
              "In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand...Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins" (Mt.3:1-2,5-6).

              If it takes doing the work of submitting to the rite of water baptism to be saved then that salvation cannot be described as being of grace:

              "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness"
              (Ro.4:4-5).
              Jerry, you dance through dispensations to disprove the words Peter used regarding the work of water baptism being required for remission (acts 2:38). You're not paying attention to the fact that God's grace can be effectual despite Peter's belief in works of faith. You apparently do not understand God's plan for unbelieving Israel or the requirements that they placed on themselves through works of righteousness.

              You have stated multiple times that eternal life is received if one believes that Jesus is Lord...is that true? Answer my question.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
                Jerry, you dance through dispensations to disprove the words Peter used regarding the work of water baptism being required for remission (acts 2:38).
                I answered you and you said nothing at all in regard to my answer. Evidently you are unable to refute my answer.

                Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
                You're not paying attention to the fact that God's grace can be effectual despite Peter's belief in works of faith.
                You are not paying attention to the fact that Paul wrote the following:

                "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness"
                (Ro.4:4-5).

                Can you not even understand that Paul is saying that if it takes works to be saved then that salvation cannot be described as being of grace?

                Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
                You have stated multiple times that eternal life is received if one believes that Jesus is Lord...is that true? Answer my question.
                I quoted the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law but evidently you don't believe Him:

                "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life"
                (Jn.6:47).

                He also told the Jews who lived under the law the following:

                "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life"
                (Jn.6:63).

                If these two verses spoken by the Lord Jesus are not saying that the Jews who lived under the law received eternal life when they believed then His words must have a different meaning.

                What interpretation can you give for the meaning of these two verses?

                Comment

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