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  • #46
    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Why didn't you answer my remarks about what you said here?:

    If one of the groups mentioned by Paul in the following verse is not the remnant then who are the two different groups?:

    "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby"
    (Eph.2:13-16).

    So Jews were not baptized into the Body of Christ?:
    "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).
    The remnant remained the remnant. The NEW creature is where the NEW members of the body of Christ were twained.

    Your retroactive induction of the little flock into the body of Christ is just one of your many confusions.
    All of my ancestors are human.
    Originally posted by Squeaky
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Originally posted by God's Truth
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
      And this from a guy that thinks that sealed does not mean sealed. You're a special guy.
      Seals have been broken all throughout history.
      Believers have been thrown in hell all throughout history.
      Yes, you better believe it.
      Just believing is plain ridiculous.
      It takes way more than just believing to make it into heaven!
      "Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey,
      you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether
      (slaves) of sin leading to (eternal) death, OR
      (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness?" (Romans 6:16)

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by ZacharyB View Post
        Seals have been broken all throughout history.
        NOT BY GOD, they haven't.
        2 Cor. 1:18-22 But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay. 19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. 20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. 21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.


        Believers have been thrown in hell all throughout history.
        Only those who CLAIM to believe. False brethren.


        Yes, you better believe it.
        Spoken like an enemy of the Cross.


        Just believing is plain ridiculous.
        It takes way more than just believing to make it into heaven!
        People make that claim about Grace and God's gift of salvation all the time.

        They refuse to accept the fact that ALL THE GLORY of man's salvation belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ. "That in the ages to come"....
        Eph. 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

        Eph. 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

        Comment


        • #49
          Truly, a huge percentage of today's HYPER-GRACE, GRACE-ONLY, etc. believers
          will find themselves in hell ... because they have been deceived into thinking
          that they have NO accountability during their process of salvation!

          Many NT verses prove each of these spiritual truths:
          Believers stay righteous by practicing righteousness
          Believers stay righteous through their obedience
          Believers faith must endure until the end of their lives
          Believers keep salvation by repenting of their sins
          Believers were chosen and called to live holy lives
          Believers must love, forgive, not judge or condemn
          Believers must be victorious overcomers


          One full page of Scripture verses is available
          for almost every one of the above topics.


          Does anyone care to see any of these warning verses?
          No, of course not.
          "Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey,
          you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether
          (slaves) of sin leading to (eternal) death, OR
          (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness?" (Romans 6:16)

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
            The remnant remained the remnant. The NEW creature is where the NEW members of the body of Christ were twained.
            So are you saying that one of the groups mentioned in the following passage is not the believing remnant out of Israel which Paul mentioned at Romans 11:5?:

            "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby"
            (Eph.2:13-16).

            One of the two groups is obviously the believing Gentiles and the other group can be none other than the believing Jews. And since Paul only speaks of "one" remnant out of the nation of Israel then according to your ideas these Jews were never a part of Israel because they cannot be the believing "remnant" out of Israel.

            That idea is ridiculous!

            Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
            Your retroactive induction of the little flock into the body of Christ is just one of your many confusions.
            What is your evidence that the Body of Christ did not begin until Paul? Your whole theology depends on such evidence and the Scriptures will be searched in vain for any such evidence.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by ZacharyB View Post
              Truly, a huge percentage of today's HYPER-GRACE, GRACE-ONLY, etc. believers
              will find themselves in hell ...
              You are the one who is headed straight for hell because you refuse to believe the gospel of grace that declare that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).

              You haven't received the Spirit which is of God because you don't know the things which are "freely" given to believers:
              "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God" (1 Cor.2:12).

              Originally posted by ZacharyB View Post
              Believers faith must endure until the end of their lives
              That verse is not "doctrinal" in nature but instead is found in a narrative which speaks of the coming tribulation:
              "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) 16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened" (Mt.24:13-22).

              Those who endure to the "end" of the great tribulation will be saved physically. Here are prophecies which refer to the Lord Jesus saving those who endure to the end of the great tribulation:
              "The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them" (Zech.12:7-8).

              It is only those who "believe God" (Ro.4:3) who are saved and you are denying the following words of God which declare in no uncertain terms that those who "believe" have eternal life and will not perish:
              "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).

              Comment


              • #52
                "Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
                The remnant remained the remnant. The NEW creature is where the NEW members of the body of Christ were twained.
                So are you saying that one of the groups mentioned in the following passage is not the believing remnant out of Israel which Paul mentioned at Romans 11:5?:

                "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).

                "One of the two groups is obviously the believing Gentiles and the other group can be none other than the believing Jews. And since Paul only speaks of "one" remnant out of the nation of Israel then according to your ideas these Jews were never a part of Israel because they cannot be the believing "remnant" out of Israel."

                When there is no non-dispensationalist around, the TOL dispensationalists quarrel with one another. The Quarrel is the object for TOL dispensationalists. Yet their argument, or quarrel here, reveals something of the problem in dispensationalism. It is that dispensationalism tends to focus attention on systematic theology and "rightly dividing," instead of on the fear of not having been born again, not having repented of sin and of promoting doctrines that do not follow some New Testament doctrines.

                Dispensationalism, from the statements of its founders, John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer focuses upon the multitude of Old Covenant physical Israel. If a Christian wants to focus on Israel, focus upon the remnant of Israel in Romans 11: 1-5. whose individuals became new creations, just as Born Again Gentiles became New Creations, united as Colossians 3: 11 and other New Testament texts say, indluding Ephesians 2: 12-15.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by northwye View Post
                  Dispensationalism, from the statements of its founders, John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer focuses upon the multitude of Old Covenant physical Israel. If a Christian wants to focus on Israel, focus upon the remnant of Israel in Romans 11: 1-5. whose individuals became new creations, just as Born Again Gentiles became New Creations, united as Colossians 3: 11 and other New Testament texts say, indluding Ephesians 2: 12-15.
                  Darby, Scofield, and Chafer all taught that the believing remnant out of Israel (Ro.11:5) all became members of the Body of Christ.

                  Why do you continue to make false charges against what these dispensationalists taught?

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                    Darby, Scofield, and Chafer all taught that the believing remnant out of Israel (Ro.11:5) all became members of the Body of Christ.
                    Why do you continue to make false charges against what these dispensationalists taught?
                    I thought everyone knew these guys were total nut jobs!
                    "Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey,
                    you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether
                    (slaves) of sin leading to (eternal) death, OR
                    (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness?" (Romans 6:16)

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                      Darby, Scofield, and Chafer all taught that the believing remnant out of Israel (Ro.11:5) all became members of the Body of Christ.
                      Why do you continue to make false charges against what these dispensationalists taught?

                      I thought everyone knew these guys were total nut jobs! "

                      I could have quoted from John Darby and Lewis S. Chafer that Israel and the Church are, in dispensationalism, entirely separated and eternally different peoples of God. This is where the two peoples and two programs in dispensationalism comes from.

                      But TOL dispensationalists use a form of the dialectic in their quarrels, and this dialectic is not an honest kind of argument. You could call it gaming the opponent.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by ZacharyB View Post
                        I thought everyone knew these guys were total nut jobs!
                        You also think that no one can enjoys eternal security despite the following words which speak of those who believe:
                        "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by northwye View Post
                          Dispensationalism, from the statements of its founders, John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer focuses upon the multitude of Old Covenant physical Israel. If a Christian wants to focus on Israel, focus upon the remnant of Israel in Romans 11: 1-5. whose individuals became new creations, just as Born Again Gentiles became New Creations, united as Colossians 3: 11 and other New Testament texts say, indluding Ephesians 2: 12-15.
                          Please quote Darby, Scofield, or Chafer denying that the believing remnant out of Israel did not become members of the Body of Christ.

                          That is what you asserted now either quote them saying that the believing remnant were not made members of the Body of Christ or admit that you mis-represented their teaching.

                          Show us your heart is in the right place and that you want to treat others honestly, the same way that you want to be treated.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            "Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
                            Dispensationalism, from the statements of its founders, John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer focuses upon the multitude of Old Covenant physical Israel. If a Christian wants to focus on Israel, focus upon the remnant of Israel in Romans 11: 1-5. whose individuals became new creations, just as Born Again Gentiles became New Creations, united as Colossians 3: 11 and other New Testament texts say, indluding Ephesians 2: 12-15.
                            Please quote Darby, Scofield, or Chafer denying that the believing remnant out of Israel did not become members of the Body of Christ.

                            That is what you asserted now either quote them saying that the believing remnant were not made members of the Body of Christ or admit that you mis-represented their teaching.

                            Show us your heart is in the right place and that you want to treat others honestly, the same way that you want to be treated. "

                            This particular quarrel has become convoluted.

                            See the thread, The Relation of Old Testament To the New Testament and Dispensationalism, posted on March 14, 2019: Quoted are Posts number 15 an 16:

                            "Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity, '...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323..

                            What does Chafer mean by "Israel"

                            Israel as it existed when Christ was born on earth ended in 70 A.D. with the taking of Jerusalem by the Roman Army which then destroyed the Temple. The rule of the Pharisees ended at this time, as did the Temple System. After the destruction of he Temple there was a change from Pharisaic Judaism to Rabbinic Judaism. The Rabbis, though influenced by the earlier Pharisees, replaced the Pharisees as the religious leaders of the Jews.

                            The question is, can Rabbinic Judaism be identified as "Israel" But then can "Israel" be identified as being all those of the physical bloodline from Abraham?

                            And the issue is Galatians Chapter 3, in which Paul explains that the physical bloodline as marking the Chosen People of God has been replaced by faith.

                            Paul is subtle in Galatians 3. He does not come out and say "The Physical bloodline as the marker for the chosen people of God has been replaced by faith."

                            "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" Galatians 3: 3

                            By the flesh he means the physical bloodline.

                            "Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." Galatians 3: 7

                            Galatians 3: 7 is clear enough that we become the Children of Abraham by faith in Christ.

                            Yet Paul still does not come and say clearly that the identify of Israel as the chosen people is no longer based upon the physical bloodline.

                            "...that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ: that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Galatians 3: 14 Again this is clear that faith is that which now, in the New Covenant, identifies people as being the chosen or elect of God.

                            "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." Galatians 3: 16 The seed of Abraham is Christ, though Christ is God. It is Jesus Christ who delivers spiritual life to those who have faith in him, and makes them heirs of Abraham, who believed God.

                            Dispensationalists do not talk about Galatians 3 very much, because it is a threat to their system of postulates which oppose New Testament scripture.

                            For dispensationalism, Israel must remain defined by the physical bloodline. If Galatians 3 were believed by many dispensationalists, this would be a serious blow to their theology.

                            "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." Galatians 6: 8

                            "As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ......For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
                            16.And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." Galatians 6: 12, 15-16

                            Paul has said in Galatians 3: 28 that "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

                            So, in Galatians 6: 15-16 how could Paul be talking only about saved Jews being now the Israel of God? He cannot. The Israel of God is made up of saved Jews and saved Gentiles, just as the good olive tree of Romans 11 is made up of both peoples contrary to dispensationalism. Or will their chief spokesman, the verbal wrestler of TOL, now say that dispensationalism teaches that Galatians 6: 15-16 includes saved Gentiles, with the saved Jews? "

                            Reply: Post Number 16: Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
                            What does Chafer mean by "Israel"
                            In the end of the tenth chapter of Romans and the beginning of the eleventh chapter Paul states:

                            "But to Israel He saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid" (Ro.10:21; 11:1).

                            In this passage when Paul speaks of Israel it is obvious that it is Israel which is made up of the physical descendants of Jacob which is in view: "All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

                            Paul is quoting from the OT so his reference to "Israel" at Romans 10:21 must be the Israel which had its beginning in the OT. Here is the verse which he quoted:

                            "I have stretched forth my hands all day to a disobedient and gainsaying people, to them that walked in a way that was not good, but after their sins. This is the people that provokes me continually in my presence; they offer sacrifices in gardens, and burn incense on bricks to devils, which exist not" (Isa.65:2-3; LXX).

                            So when Paul asks, "Hath God cast away His people" the words "His people" are referring back to the people of whom he just wrote about, the Israel he describes as being "a disobedient and gainsaying people."

                            So when Paul asked, "Hath God cast away His people" he was asking if the nation of Israel that had its beginning in the OT had been cast away.

                            And what he says next makes it plain that God has not cast away the Israel of the OT:

                            "God forbid."

                            northwye, your eschatology directly contradicts what Paul said about Israel which had its beginning in OT times. "

                            Apparently in the reply the answer to the question "What does Chafer mean by Israel?" is this : "In this passage when Paul speaks of Israel it is obvious that it is Israel which is made up of the physical descendants of Jacob which is in view: "All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

                            I agree, Chafer means by Israel All Israel, all of the physical bloodline from Abraham. Chafer is not defining Israel as the remnant seen in Romans 11: 1-5, but as the multitude of Israel. And many or most dispensationalists point to Romans 11: 26 as saying, for them, that the "all Isreal" which is to be saved, is all of the physical bloodline, or the multitude of Israel.
                            Last edited by northwye; March 24th, 2019, 12:53 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                              "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).
                              I have warned you before that you have NO comprehension
                              of what the NT word "pisteou" (believe) really means.
                              Many today are getting the picture that ...
                              true saving belief includes faith that endures, obedience, etc.
                              "Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey,
                              you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether
                              (slaves) of sin leading to (eternal) death, OR
                              (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness?" (Romans 6:16)

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by ZacharyB View Post
                                Seals have been broken all throughout history.
                                Irrelevant to the POINT that Paul is making.

                                Originally posted by ZacharyB View Post
                                Believers have been thrown in hell all throughout history.
                                Completely FALSE.

                                Originally posted by ZacharyB View Post
                                Yes, you better believe it.
                                Just believing is plain ridiculous.
                                It takes way more than just believing to make it into heaven!
                                When God says it, I relieve it.

                                I'm already seated in heavenly places with Paul (Eph 2:6). You could be too, but you won't. You're too proud.
                                All of my ancestors are human.
                                Originally posted by Squeaky
                                That explains why your an idiot.
                                Originally posted by God's Truth
                                Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                                Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                                (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                                1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                                (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                                Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                                Comment

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