Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Galatians 5:16 OBEY!!! Grace vs. Works

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • ECT: Galatians 5:16 OBEY!!! Grace vs. Works

    Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
    If you think that "Love thy neighbor" Mark 12:31 and "forgive others so that you may be forgiven" Matthew 6:14 and "repent lest ye likewise perish"Luke 13:5 is "law that you are not subject to" Romans 6:14 Galatians 3:25 then you are in a dangerous place, and between the two of us, it's not me that lacks understanding of the law and grace. (verses added)
    Galatians 5:16 actually says 'walk,' not obey. I expect this thread to go a long distance because questions will be asked for about every response.


    For instance: do "I" obey? Or does God work obedience in me? Is it about freewill in that sense? Even a good many freewill theists deny their 'will' can get in the way of salvation, indeed, even claiming OSAS against it!

    Then, the 'obey' people will quote a lot of scriptures about obedience but again: Do "I" obey? Ephesians 2:10 Philippians 2:13 Romans 1:5

    2 John 1:6 Is this 'test' met by God in us, or by us for salvation? IOW, is it how we know God has a hold of us, or is it what we need to do to be 'sure' God has a hold of us? Ephesians 2:8&9

    Hebrews 5:9 Is this when we first came to Christ? Was that our obedience, or does 'obey' mean 'keep on obeying everything?'


    Do I have anything to do with my salvation? My continuing salvation status? How much is 'me' and how much is God for this?

    Are we transformed by the renewing of our minds? Romans 12:2 Or are we transformed by His power? Colossians 1:21-22?

    Are the contexts for all these verses important? How do surrounding verses give us context for knowing which verses I need to apply, which are applied to me, or which aren't relevant for my particular walk with God?

    I hope and pray this thread goes a long way and is very meaningful about the Grace of God, righteousness, Christian living, and clarifying about salvation, done or a process not quite finished....

    Before debating anything, might I suggest making a LOT of questions: who, what, when, why, where, how....of the other guy. The more questions, I think the more meaningful AND clarifying this thread will be and it is my prayer it will become a go-to thread of importance on TOL concerning Salvation, Our Lord Jesus Christ, and His Love and Grace.

    In Him -Lon
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    ? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  • #2
    I had hoped this would have gone the distance. I'm a little sad it never got traction.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    ? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

    Comment


    • #3
      Its very simple.

      As passages like those in Romans 5, and Romans 12 and so on make obvious, when a lost person becomes a Believer he nevertheless retains many habits of mind and behavior from his former life; for that is all he had known.

      Thus, the need for the sanctification process (learning how to live a life separated unto the Lord) must needs begin for said Believer.

      Thus, the many passages in Scripture calling for that; along with many other passages describing how that works.

      Which is basically the process of taking the Word in, that its wisdom begin to renew one's mind to what the thoughts, attitudes, decision making and behaviors of their new life in the Lord, look like.

      2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the LORD.

      Then, as the Believer begins to walk in accordance with said renewed mind, it begins to transform his outward behavior to where it begins to conform more and more to his mind's Bible based image of Christ.

      Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

      Colossians 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

      Much of which is nicely depicted in the following...

      Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 4:27 Neither give place to the devil. 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

      In other words, we know where we or any Believer is in that - no matter what we or others might claim otherwise - we each know where we or anyone else is actually at in any of that simply by our and or their own manifestation of those descriptions there, in each our/day to day, in how we treat others, and so on.

      Anything else is anything but The Grace Life.

      Is in fact, bereft of it - no matter what is claimed, otherwise.

      Then again, much of Ephesians is Romans in summarized form, and vice-versa.

      The above harmonizes nicely, for example, with Romans 6 and Romans 12-15.

      Acts 17:11, 12.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Lon View Post
        I had hoped this would have gone the distance. I'm a little sad it never got traction.
        I don't ever remember seeing this one...otherwise I might have responded then.

        I have always been struck by how often Paul uses the word "let". Even just in the one letter to the Philippians we see it over and over again :

        Spoiler

        Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ...
        Philippians 1:27

        Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory...
        Philippians 2:3

        Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus
        Philippians 2:5

        Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded...
        Philippians 3:15

        Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
        Philippians 3:16


        And it wasn't only to the Philippians. This is just a small sample :

        Spoiler

        Neither let us commit fornication...
        I Corinthians 10:8

        But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
        I Corinthians 14:28

        Let all things be done decently and in order.
        I Corinthians 14:40

        Let all your things be done with charity.
        I Corinthians 16:14

        Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth
        Ephesians 4:29

        Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
        Ephesians 4:31

        Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself...
        Ephesians 5:33

        And let the peace of God rule in your hearts...
        Colossians 3:15

        Let your speech be always with grace...
        Colossians 4:6


        And it wasn't just Paul. You can find it in James quite a bit as well :

        Spoiler

        But let patience have her perfect work...
        James 1:4

        But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
        James 1:6

        Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath
        James 1:19


        Even John has a smattering :

        Spoiler

        Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning...
        I John 2:24

        My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
        I John 3:18

        Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
        I John 4:7

        Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord
        James 5:14


        Each of these uses the term "let" (English word, at least) where it is clear that it could just as easily been uttered as a command ("Thou shalt..." or "Thou shalt not..."). You don't see that in the OT - at least not to the same degree. The OT Law was written for the wicked. The unregenerate. To bring conviction. But now that Christ has come (the Law being the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ), we are no longer dealing exclusively with the wickedness of man. We are dealing with those that have been enlightened, quickened, saved, regenerated, brought into the light, filled with the Holy Spirit. These are not all synonymous terms, but it makes it appear (to me, at least) that God is dealing with those who can hear Him. Those that want to obey. Those that delight in His Word, His Law, His ways. And so in a sense, one need not issue commands (because they are for the disobedient) but speak to those who know the Grace and liberty of being washed and given a new nature. For if they are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. And if led, commands are not required. We may stray, we may not always do as we should - but if one is really born of the Spirit of God, then they don't need the commands in the sense of "Do this" and "Do that" and "Don't do this other thing". Instead, "let" implies that there is that in the man that desires to do what is pleasing to God and that we are to not resist the work of God in us (for it is His work - Eph 2:10 and Philippians 1:6). The command is to the dead sinner. The "let" is recognizing the Spirit's work in us and not trying to co-opt that work. At least that's the way I have read it.

        Not that there aren't times where we need a stern command. But for the one who loves God and desires to serve Him (which is only possible by the Spirit of God) that love will lead him or her to obey without compulsion. If we love Him, we WILL obey Him. That's not a question. So appealing to the work of the Spirit (even if it is an indirect appeal) in those who have the Spirit, by a different approach ("let" rather than "thou shalt" or "thou shalt not") recognizes where the real imperative comes from.

        At least that's how I've read it.
        If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

        The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
        Jeremiah 17:9

        Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
        Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

        Isaiah 50:10-11

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by nikolai_42 View Post
          We are dealing with those that have been enlightened, quickened, saved, regenerated, brought into the light, filled with the Holy Spirit. These are not all synonymous terms, but it makes it appear (to me, at least) that God is dealing with those who can hear Him. Those that want to obey.
          This is how the LORD deals with those who are saved but yet do not always obey Him:

          "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (1 Cor.11:31-32).

          That is how the LORD deals with the Jewish Christians as well:

          "And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons"
          (Heb.12:5-8).

          Once a person is born of God by faith (1 Jn.5:1-5) they become a son of God and they will never perish:

          "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"
          (Jn.3:16).

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
            This is how the LORD deals with those who are saved but yet do not always obey Him:

            "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (1 Cor.11:31-32).
            Because there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus and walk not according to the flesh (Romans 8:1). The dividing line is not obedience as much as it is what it is we are walking in. Paul uses another one of those non-commandment approaches when writing the Romans :

            Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
            Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
            Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

            Romans 6:11-13

            He doesn't just say "walk in the Spirit" but refers to the way the believer should consider himself. The salvation of one's soul is not always apparent - even to the one in question. We see different behaviors from people and even they can be misleading. David was a man after God's own heart and yet he committed adultery, murdered, lied to cover it up and resisted repentance for at least a year (if I recall). Saul didn't kill every last one of the enemy and held some back...and that showed a wicked heart. That which is highly esteemed among men is an abomination to God (and vice-versa).

            So I would agree with you, but I don't see two different classes of Christians (those that don't always obey Him and those that do). I see believers at various stages of development in the Lord (with very different matters to contend with) and non-believers who masquerade as believers (deceiving others or themselves and others) who may or may not suffer consequences in this life. In other words, the judgment of who is and who isn't a true child of God is not always an easy one to make. We are too easily deceived because we can't see what God does.

            Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
            That is how the LORD deals with the Jewish Christians as well:

            "And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons"
            (Heb.12:5-8).

            Once a person is born of God by faith (1 Jn.5:1-5) they become a son of God and they will never perish:

            "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"
            (Jn.3:16).
            If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

            The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
            Jeremiah 17:9

            Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
            Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

            Isaiah 50:10-11

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by nikolai_42 View Post
              Because there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus and walk not according to the flesh (Romans 8:1).
              Yes, that refers to a Christian's walk. But did the following Christians experience a condemnation from the LORD?:
              "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep" (1 Cor.11:29-30).

              Originally posted by nikolai_42 View Post
              The salvation of one's soul is not always apparent - even to the one in question.
              Where do you get that?

              The Christian KNOWS these things are true because the Lord has given us an understanding of them:

              "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life" (1 Jn.5:20).

              Those of us with true faith KNOW that these things are true because we have been given the evidence that they are true:

              "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb.11:1).

              The gospel comes in power and in the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction:
              "For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction" (1 Thess.1:4-5).

              The Apostle Paul said that his preaching was in the power of God:

              "And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God" (1 Cor.2:4-5).

              Therefore, we KNOW that when the Lord appears we will be made like Him:

              "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).

              True believers KNOW that these things are true. If you don't then I question whether or not you are saved.

              Again, where did you get the idea that the salvation of the soul is not always apparent?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                Yes, that refers to a Christian's walk. But did the following Christians experience a condemnation from the LORD?:
                "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep" (1 Cor.11:29-30).



                Where do you get that?

                The Christian KNOWS these things are true because the Lord has given us an understanding of them:

                "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life" (1 Jn.5:20).

                Those of us with true faith KNOW that these things are true because we have been given the evidence that they are true:

                "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb.11:1).

                The gospel comes in power and in the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction:
                "For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction" (1 Thess.1:4-5).

                The Apostle Paul said that his preaching was in the power of God:

                "And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God" (1 Cor.2:4-5).

                Therefore, we KNOW that when the Lord appears we will be made like Him:

                "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).

                True believers KNOW that these things are true. If you don't then I question whether or not you are saved.

                Again, where did you get the idea that the salvation of the soul is not always apparent?
                My use of "apparent" is in the external, objective sense.

                EDIT : Which I can see as being a problem when talking about the believer himself. Those believers that "slept" may or may not have been judged believers by others. A believer may have confidence that an unbeliever cannot know - but it's also possible to have that confidence (objectively) yet question one's own standing before God just as we can question others (e.g. Psalm 116:11) .
                Last edited by nikolai_42; August 21st, 2019, 03:43 PM. Reason: Clarification
                If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

                The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
                Jeremiah 17:9

                Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
                Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

                Isaiah 50:10-11

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by nikolai_42 View Post
                  A believer may have confidence that an unbeliever cannot know - but it's also possible to have that confidence (objectively) yet question one's own standing before God just as we can question others (e.g. Psalm 116:11) .
                  How can a true believer question his standing before God since the gospel comes in power and in the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                    How can a true believer question his standing before God since the gospel comes in power and in the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction?
                    If a man starts looking inside himself. How did Peter start sinking when he was once walking on the water?
                    If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

                    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
                    Jeremiah 17:9

                    Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
                    Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

                    Isaiah 50:10-11

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by nikolai_42 View Post
                      If a man starts looking inside himself. How did Peter start sinking when he was once walking on the water?
                      Peter was born of God when he believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

                      Are you saying that Peter was questioning his belief that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?

                      Are you saying that He no longer believed the Lord Jesus when He said the following?:

                      "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life"
                      (Jn.6:47).

                      I think that you probably get your ideas because of what the Calvinists say about 2 Peter 1:10.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                        Peter was born of God when he believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

                        Are you saying that Peter was questioning his belief that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?

                        Are you saying that He no longer believed the Lord Jesus when He said the following?:

                        "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life"
                        (Jn.6:47).

                        I think that you probably get your ideas because of what the Calvinists say about 2 Peter 1:10.
                        You provided evidences of that faith - supernatural evidences and in the power of God. As long as Peter was fixed upon Christ, he evidenced that. But when he looked away because of what was going on, he started sinking. If you believe, you can tell that mountain to be cast into the sea and it will be. The point is that those evidences went away when Peter's unbelief overcame him. The same thing happened when he denied Jesus. The scriptures say that whoever denies Him before man, He will deny before His Father in heaven. Peter got his eyes off of Christ. His fear of man overcame him. Was he not saved then? Was he an unregenerate apostle? This was after he confessed who Christ was. If he really believed that, would he have denied Him? The confidence you are talking about - the confidence of faith - is not always prominent. But just because someone falls, fails or appears to turn away doesn't (always) mean that that person isn't saved. But by all external evidence, such a person may not appear to be saved (or be questioned as to their salvation). What is the foundation of a man's standing in God? Not his own ability to tell, but God's knowing them.

                        Nevertheless, the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
                        2 Timothy 2:19

                        EDIT : I agree that there will be confidence in salvation. But absence of that confidence on a full time basis is not proof that someone is not saved.
                        Last edited by nikolai_42; August 21st, 2019, 05:16 PM. Reason: Added thought
                        If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

                        The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
                        Jeremiah 17:9

                        Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
                        Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

                        Isaiah 50:10-11

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by nikolai_42 View Post
                          The point is that those evidences went away when Peter's unbelief overcame him. The same thing happened when he denied Jesus. The scriptures say that whoever denies Him before man, He will deny before His Father in heaven. Peter got his eyes off of Christ. His fear of man overcame him. Was he not saved then? Was he an unregenerate apostle? This was after he confessed who Christ was. If he really believed that, would he have denied Him?
                          So you think that even though Peter denied Christ because of the circumstances that he really stopped believing at that point of time that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?

                          Do you think that at that point he stopped believing what the Lord Jesus said earlier?:

                          "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life"
                          (Jn.6:47).

                          Originally posted by nikolai_42 View Post
                          I agree that there will be confidence in salvation.
                          Will be?

                          Do you not have that confidence now?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                            So you think that even though Peter denied Christ because of the circumstances that he really stopped believing at that point of time that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?
                            No. But by all his own evidence, Jesus had moved on. So he went back to fish. You talked about evidence, that's what I'm dealing with. Whether someone really believes savingly or not - what evidence is there? If you really believe in OSAS, then you have to admit that some turn away who were not obviously in unbelief. Were they never saved? If not, you should have known (and so should they) if there is evidence. And there are those who will point to what they did for Christ and in His name (do they not believe?) - were they ever saved? Assuming the answer to be no, they apparently thought they were.

                            Now...if you say that they were but lost salvation then you obviously don't believe in OSAS.

                            But again, we are talking about evidence for belief. Not the belief itself. Many will say to Him "Lord, Lord...".

                            Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                            Do you think that at that point he stopped believing what the Lord Jesus said earlier?:

                            "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life"
                            (Jn.6:47).



                            Will be?

                            Do you not have that confidence now?
                            Confidence that I have or confidence in Him? The two are not the same.
                            If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

                            The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
                            Jeremiah 17:9

                            Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
                            Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

                            Isaiah 50:10-11

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by nikolai_42 View Post
                              Confidence that I have or confidence in Him? The two are not the same.
                              If you have confidence in Him then you have confidence in what He said:

                              "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life"
                              (Jn.6:47).

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X