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ECT PneumaPsucheSoma and AMR Discuss Trinitarianism
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PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
The pace for this thread will be slow for most onlookers.. AMR has a substantial home situation that requires much time and energy, and I'm intermittently available.
For you and other Unitarians, it may not be very interesting or vital, since we'll be addressing exactly the manner in which Jesus Christ is ontologically divine.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Not in impatience at all, but to keep the thread semi-fresh; I'm copy/pasting two successive posts from another thread wherein I indicated I could delineate exegetical lexicography to determine the "how" for the alleged mystery of the "what" of the Virgin Birth.
It also includes a glimpse at Theology Proper, the Logos and Pneuma procession, and a bit more attention to Christological cataphatics and apophatics.
Okay. It'll take at least minimal framework for the two fundamental understandings the Patristics missed: the applied definition of Rhema contrasted to the same for Logos; and to recognize that God alone is eternal, uncreated, and Self-existent as a singular hypostasis. In that pre-existence, there is nothing but God, and from that utter transcendence He created both sempiternity (the heavenly realm) and temporality (the cosmos with chronology).
God alone has inherent phenomenologicality. His Logos and Pneuma have both phenomenologicality and noumenologicality. All creation is noumenological and is given non-inherent phenomenologicality at its instantiation into existence at the divine utterance. The Logos and Pneuma are the qualitative two-fold singular procession of God's singular hypostasis from transcendence into both realms of immanence, when/as creation is spoken into existence and all animating life breathed into those realms.
Rhema is the thing thought and spoken about; the subject matter of thought and speech; the content for all context and concept; the substance that underlies the faculties and functionalities of all intellect and expression.
There is no Logos without Rhema, for without the substantial content of subject matter there can be no thought or expression (whether spoken or written).
Logos is the entirety of the faculties and functionalities of intellect, and if there is expression it's also Logos (written/spoken). It's the wisely reasoned intelligent and rational ponderance, contemplation, and conceptual apprehension of subject matter for all expression. There are both Rhema and Logos in silence.
Rhema is the sword of the Spirit. Logos is the wielding or thrusting of that sword. Logos is the map for the territory that is the Rhema. Rhema is from reo (to speak), homonymic with reo (to flow); and -ma is the Greek suffix indicating "result of". Rhema is the resulting flow of speaking by the thrusting of the Logos.
Since God alone is eternal, uncreated, Self-existent, and transcendent; there was nothing (no thing) else to think and speak about. Since Rhema is the thing spoken about, and God is a singular transcendent hypostasis; and since faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Rhema; and since faith is a hypostasis...
Mary, as evidenced in Luke 1, heard the Rhema (God's hypostasis) for faith (a hypostasis) to come; and by her own profession of "be (ginomai) it unto me according to thy Rhema", the hypostasis of her faith hearing the very hypostasis of God conceived the hypostasis of Theanthropos in her womb. The Logos as the seed, by the breath of the Spirit, brought forth both the physical and spiritual life of Messiah as a supernatural procreative act.
Neither procession (at creation) nor conception are inception, and the eternality of the Son is the eternality of the Logos. They're coterminous. THIS is the eternal Son, Fathered through procession and conception.
The hypostasis of faith hearing the hypostasis as God's Rhema conceived the Theanthropic hypostasis of Messiah.
There's more exegetical detail from Luke 1 and other passages, but the truth is in the lexicography as well.
And this all precedes the Orthodox beginning point for formulation, the Patristics having omitted the creation of heaven and sempiternity (everlastingness) along with the cosmos and temporality with chronology.
Starting post-procession, what they've perceived as three hypostases is actually the singularly-processed two-fold qualitative hypostatic distinctions of the phenomeno-/noumeno-logical Logos and Pneuma, which are co-inherent and are conjoined to God's inherently phenomenological hypostasis.
God cannot be quantified or divided into parts. Multiple hypostases are parts. And the two "kinds" of eternity postulated by Aquinas in the 13th century are actually God's innate uncreated eternity and the created sempiternity of heaven.
In mathematics terms for contrast...
God alone is a line. Aidios. Eternal. Eternity.
The heavenly realm is a ray. Aionios. Everlasting. Sempiternity.
The cosmos is a line segment. Aion/s. Temporal. Temporality.
The Orthodox and anathema formulaics ALL combined the first two, while presuming not to. The Logos/Pneuma procession is the key. Exerchomai and ekporeuomai are both external. Since the hypostasis underlies the ousia (rather than the ousia "having" the hypostasis), the processions cannot be internal to the ousia. So the Logos and Pneuma must be inherently ontological and the procession must be economic and singular. God spoke and breathed forth His hypostasis external to Himself, and the intrinsic phenomenology and noumenology mean the internal Logos became the external Son (just as Tertullian and others insisted).
The noumenology of the Logos means the processed qualitative hypostatic distinction is the Son and not the Father. They are not discreet as multiple individuated hypostases.
The inherent hypostasis and the two-fold qualitative hypostatic distinctions are what the ACFs inferred to be three hypostases. They're not, and their co-inherence is innate, obviating the need for a nebulous inter-penetrating of perichoresis.
[Can that be substantiated biblically as cause, rather than effect?]
It is wholly effect. The Rhema as God's hypostasis is the cause, just as it is for all else. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Rhema. The hypostasis of faith IS the resulting flow of God's pre-existent hypostasis AS the Rhema, underlying His ousia and its physis, with the Incarnate Logos being the prosopon.
Christology is according to the Chalcedonian Dyophysitic Hypostatic Union. No Monophysitism; and thus no Eutychianism. No Dyohypostaticism; and thus no Nestorianism. No Apollinarianism, for Theanthropos had a human rational soul. But with some potential semantical concession to Cyrillianism as Miaphysitism being acceptable.
Arians perceive the procession of the Logos to be a (celestial) creative act.
Unitarians perceive the conception of the Logos to be a (terrestrial) creative act.
Sabellians perceive the hypostasis and two-fold processed Logos and Pneuma distinctions to be non-simultaneous and non-concurrent sequential or dynamic modalities.
Other anathema formulaics have misperceived in other manners and details.
It also includes a glimpse at Theology Proper, the Logos and Pneuma procession, and a bit more attention to Christological cataphatics and apophatics.
Okay. It'll take at least minimal framework for the two fundamental understandings the Patristics missed: the applied definition of Rhema contrasted to the same for Logos; and to recognize that God alone is eternal, uncreated, and Self-existent as a singular hypostasis. In that pre-existence, there is nothing but God, and from that utter transcendence He created both sempiternity (the heavenly realm) and temporality (the cosmos with chronology).
God alone has inherent phenomenologicality. His Logos and Pneuma have both phenomenologicality and noumenologicality. All creation is noumenological and is given non-inherent phenomenologicality at its instantiation into existence at the divine utterance. The Logos and Pneuma are the qualitative two-fold singular procession of God's singular hypostasis from transcendence into both realms of immanence, when/as creation is spoken into existence and all animating life breathed into those realms.
Rhema is the thing thought and spoken about; the subject matter of thought and speech; the content for all context and concept; the substance that underlies the faculties and functionalities of all intellect and expression.
There is no Logos without Rhema, for without the substantial content of subject matter there can be no thought or expression (whether spoken or written).
Logos is the entirety of the faculties and functionalities of intellect, and if there is expression it's also Logos (written/spoken). It's the wisely reasoned intelligent and rational ponderance, contemplation, and conceptual apprehension of subject matter for all expression. There are both Rhema and Logos in silence.
Rhema is the sword of the Spirit. Logos is the wielding or thrusting of that sword. Logos is the map for the territory that is the Rhema. Rhema is from reo (to speak), homonymic with reo (to flow); and -ma is the Greek suffix indicating "result of". Rhema is the resulting flow of speaking by the thrusting of the Logos.
Since God alone is eternal, uncreated, Self-existent, and transcendent; there was nothing (no thing) else to think and speak about. Since Rhema is the thing spoken about, and God is a singular transcendent hypostasis; and since faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Rhema; and since faith is a hypostasis...
Mary, as evidenced in Luke 1, heard the Rhema (God's hypostasis) for faith (a hypostasis) to come; and by her own profession of "be (ginomai) it unto me according to thy Rhema", the hypostasis of her faith hearing the very hypostasis of God conceived the hypostasis of Theanthropos in her womb. The Logos as the seed, by the breath of the Spirit, brought forth both the physical and spiritual life of Messiah as a supernatural procreative act.
Neither procession (at creation) nor conception are inception, and the eternality of the Son is the eternality of the Logos. They're coterminous. THIS is the eternal Son, Fathered through procession and conception.
The hypostasis of faith hearing the hypostasis as God's Rhema conceived the Theanthropic hypostasis of Messiah.
There's more exegetical detail from Luke 1 and other passages, but the truth is in the lexicography as well.
And this all precedes the Orthodox beginning point for formulation, the Patristics having omitted the creation of heaven and sempiternity (everlastingness) along with the cosmos and temporality with chronology.
Starting post-procession, what they've perceived as three hypostases is actually the singularly-processed two-fold qualitative hypostatic distinctions of the phenomeno-/noumeno-logical Logos and Pneuma, which are co-inherent and are conjoined to God's inherently phenomenological hypostasis.
God cannot be quantified or divided into parts. Multiple hypostases are parts. And the two "kinds" of eternity postulated by Aquinas in the 13th century are actually God's innate uncreated eternity and the created sempiternity of heaven.
In mathematics terms for contrast...
God alone is a line. Aidios. Eternal. Eternity.
The heavenly realm is a ray. Aionios. Everlasting. Sempiternity.
The cosmos is a line segment. Aion/s. Temporal. Temporality.
The Orthodox and anathema formulaics ALL combined the first two, while presuming not to. The Logos/Pneuma procession is the key. Exerchomai and ekporeuomai are both external. Since the hypostasis underlies the ousia (rather than the ousia "having" the hypostasis), the processions cannot be internal to the ousia. So the Logos and Pneuma must be inherently ontological and the procession must be economic and singular. God spoke and breathed forth His hypostasis external to Himself, and the intrinsic phenomenology and noumenology mean the internal Logos became the external Son (just as Tertullian and others insisted).
The noumenology of the Logos means the processed qualitative hypostatic distinction is the Son and not the Father. They are not discreet as multiple individuated hypostases.
The inherent hypostasis and the two-fold qualitative hypostatic distinctions are what the ACFs inferred to be three hypostases. They're not, and their co-inherence is innate, obviating the need for a nebulous inter-penetrating of perichoresis.
[Can that be substantiated biblically as cause, rather than effect?]
It is wholly effect. The Rhema as God's hypostasis is the cause, just as it is for all else. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Rhema. The hypostasis of faith IS the resulting flow of God's pre-existent hypostasis AS the Rhema, underlying His ousia and its physis, with the Incarnate Logos being the prosopon.
Christology is according to the Chalcedonian Dyophysitic Hypostatic Union. No Monophysitism; and thus no Eutychianism. No Dyohypostaticism; and thus no Nestorianism. No Apollinarianism, for Theanthropos had a human rational soul. But with some potential semantical concession to Cyrillianism as Miaphysitism being acceptable.
Arians perceive the procession of the Logos to be a (celestial) creative act.
Unitarians perceive the conception of the Logos to be a (terrestrial) creative act.
Sabellians perceive the hypostasis and two-fold processed Logos and Pneuma distinctions to be non-simultaneous and non-concurrent sequential or dynamic modalities.
Other anathema formulaics have misperceived in other manners and details.
Saint John W - And stuff this..
I also affirm Chalcedonian Dyophysitic Christology of the Hypostatic Union, though allowing for some inclusion of Cyrillian Miaphysitism. I DISaffirm Nestorian, Eutychian, and Apollinarian variants of Christology and any hint of pure Monophysitism. Theanthropos is the singular qualitatively-processed divine hypostasis, having taken on (and underlying) a human physis to accompany the inherent divine physis for God's singular ousia.
Anyones got sum ousia's or physis I can munch on?
me,
this is hungry work, it seems - OUISA Daddy ? -
I also affirm Chalcedonian Dyophysitic Christology of the Hypostatic Union, though allowing for some inclusion of Cyrillian Miaphysitism. I DISaffirm Nestorian, Eutychian, and Apollinarian variants of Christology and any hint of pure Monophysitism. Theanthropos is the singular qualitatively-processed divine hypostasis, having taken on (and underlying) a human physis to accompany the inherent divine physis for God's singular ousia.
Anyones got sum ousia's or physis I can munch on?
me,
this is hungry work, it seems - OUISA Daddy ? -
Ask Mr. Religion
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PPS,
Have I accurately captured your basic thesis statement with your suggested elaborations?
1. God is a singular transcendent hypostasis underlying an ousia.
2. God's literal Logos and Pneuma, are the two-fold, singular, external, economic procession of His hypostasis into creation when and as He spoke to create.
3. God’s Logos and Pneuma, are intrinsically and ontologically divine and are qualitatively, rather than quantitatively distinct.
As we proceed, I will build up a running glossary of terms in our discussion that can be viewed using the spoiler button shown at the bottom of my posts.
Glossary of terms :
I would appreciate your definitions of the terms contained in the glossary above.
AMR
Have I accurately captured your basic thesis statement with your suggested elaborations?
1. God is a singular transcendent hypostasis underlying an ousia.
2. God's literal Logos and Pneuma, are the two-fold, singular, external, economic procession of His hypostasis into creation when and as He spoke to create.
3. God’s Logos and Pneuma, are intrinsically and ontologically divine and are qualitatively, rather than quantitatively distinct.
As we proceed, I will build up a running glossary of terms in our discussion that can be viewed using the spoiler button shown at the bottom of my posts.
Glossary of terms :
Spoiler
I would appreciate your definitions of the terms contained in the glossary above.
AMR
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Yes, that's an accurate partial framework to begin.
Initially, I'll present excerpted verbatim lexicography from Zodhiates (highlighted with particular emphases for clarity), including cataphatic and apophatic specificity, followed by my explanatory applicational summary.
I'm also including several additional terms for lexical definition. I'll be posting the terms sequentially and editing the spoiler content as I add each glossary entry. I want to be deliberate and meticulous in laying the foundation of these crucial definitions for the necessary terms, so bear with me as it may take a bit of time.
In addition, I'm including a simple listing of other Greek and English terms that might need definition as we proceed to address the Logos and Pneuma procession and overall Aseity and Phenomenology, etc.
I'd also like to further preface with the general statement that we can never know God in His inherent transcendent ontological essence; but we may know all that He has expressed by the active economy of His energies OF/FROM that essence; and He has spoken unto us by His (eternal) Son. There must be clear distinction between ontology and economy, just as there must be clear distinction between transcendence and immanence and between eternal, everlasting, and temporal.
GLOSSARY OF TERMS
Spoiler
I've also decided it best to change the nomenclature of my formulaic to Uni-Hypostatic Trinity (one hypostasis) instead of Mono-Hypostatic Trinity; primarily because of any confusion with Monohypostatic Christology references. This is still in contrast to the Orthodox and modern diluted versions of a Multi-Hypostatic Trinity (three hypostases).
The "Tri-" prefix for my formulaic is referring to phenomenology/nooumenology relative to the inherent ontology and economic procession of the Logos and Pneuma as qualitative hypostatic distinctions. This contrasts to the "Tri-" prefix being relative to quantitative individuated hypostases.
Last edited:
other definitions for the uneducated
other definitions for the uneducated
PNEUMA (Spirit) A tyre.
PSUCHE (Soul) A tyre blowing out.
SOMA (Body) Not all.
SARX (Flesh) A British way of saying that other word.
HYPOSTASIS (Substance) secret police.
OUSIA (Essence) buzz off
PHYSIS (Nature) Shush
PROSOPON (Person) a prod.
PHENOMENON seven men on.
NOOUMENON no men on.
AIDIOS (Eternal/ity) Sound
AIONIOS (Everlasting/ness; Sempiternity) no sound.
AION/S (Age/s; Temporality) for wrinkled clothes.
ONTOS (Ontology) more than one toe.
ECONOMY Congress.
ENERGEIA (Energy/ies) A softdrink
EXERCHOMAI (Procession) going and coming
EKPOREUOMAI (Procession) going and remaining
TRANSCENDENT A long scratch on the car.
IMMANENT Moslem note.
PISTIS (Faith) I would not like to say
ELPIS (Hope/Trust) Elephants one of the same.
AGAPE (Love) Mouth wide open.
PHILEO (Love) His TV show.
CHARIS (Grace) A city in France.
ELEOS (Mercy) He owes me.
THEOS (God) She owes me.
ANTHROPOS (Man) and jump off.
THEANTHROPOS (God-Man) a particular jump off.
THEOTES (Divinity) Poster Oats
THEIOTES (Divinity) many poster Oats.
THANATOS (Death) a particular poster Oats.
NEKROS (Death) A medalion usually worn around neck.
HAMARTIA (Sin) hurting people with a hammer.
HAMATANO (Sinning) hurting a lot of people with a hammer.
Signed,
John W.
other definitions for the uneducated
PNEUMA (Spirit) A tyre.
PSUCHE (Soul) A tyre blowing out.
SOMA (Body) Not all.
SARX (Flesh) A British way of saying that other word.
HYPOSTASIS (Substance) secret police.
OUSIA (Essence) buzz off
PHYSIS (Nature) Shush
PROSOPON (Person) a prod.
PHENOMENON seven men on.
NOOUMENON no men on.
AIDIOS (Eternal/ity) Sound
AIONIOS (Everlasting/ness; Sempiternity) no sound.
AION/S (Age/s; Temporality) for wrinkled clothes.
ONTOS (Ontology) more than one toe.
ECONOMY Congress.
ENERGEIA (Energy/ies) A softdrink
EXERCHOMAI (Procession) going and coming
EKPOREUOMAI (Procession) going and remaining
TRANSCENDENT A long scratch on the car.
IMMANENT Moslem note.
PISTIS (Faith) I would not like to say
ELPIS (Hope/Trust) Elephants one of the same.
AGAPE (Love) Mouth wide open.
PHILEO (Love) His TV show.
CHARIS (Grace) A city in France.
ELEOS (Mercy) He owes me.
THEOS (God) She owes me.
ANTHROPOS (Man) and jump off.
THEANTHROPOS (God-Man) a particular jump off.
THEOTES (Divinity) Poster Oats
THEIOTES (Divinity) many poster Oats.
THANATOS (Death) a particular poster Oats.
NEKROS (Death) A medalion usually worn around neck.
HAMARTIA (Sin) hurting people with a hammer.
HAMATANO (Sinning) hurting a lot of people with a hammer.
Signed,
John W.
''And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:'' 1 Cor 2:4
What these persuasive words of man’s wisdom are, will quickly appear to any that considers there are but two human arts that pretend to any thing of persuading; rhetoric, and logic, or the art of reasoning. Rhetoric persuadeth more weakly, working more upon the affections than upon the understanding and judgment. Logic, or the art of reasoning, more strongly, working upon the understanding and judgment, and teaching men to conclude from connate natural principles. Now, saith Paul, my preaching was neither of these ways, I neither studied neat and fine words and phrases, nor did I make it my work to demonstrate gospel propositions to you from principles of natural reason. (Matthew Poole.)
What these persuasive words of man’s wisdom are, will quickly appear to any that considers there are but two human arts that pretend to any thing of persuading; rhetoric, and logic, or the art of reasoning. Rhetoric persuadeth more weakly, working more upon the affections than upon the understanding and judgment. Logic, or the art of reasoning, more strongly, working upon the understanding and judgment, and teaching men to conclude from connate natural principles. Now, saith Paul, my preaching was neither of these ways, I neither studied neat and fine words and phrases, nor did I make it my work to demonstrate gospel propositions to you from principles of natural reason. (Matthew Poole.)
oatmeal
Well-known member
Great verses!
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Oh, lookie... A singular verse of scripture (misapplied) and then a lengthy quote with (not so) enticing words of man's wisdom. How... ironic.
This thread is for a practical approach in pursuing God's Rhema (Word), which is of His power and upholds all things. The extensive lexicography is for careful stewardship by faith.
There are plenty of other threads for alleged "simplicity" and dogma and diatribe and humor. AMR established this thread for the one purpose of our 1-on-1 communication via a specific format as fellowship and an in-depth God-honoring search for truth and unity.
It would be a great blessing and encouragement if others would confine their expressions to other threads instead of displaying their egomania and narcissism here, in spite of the obvious timbre of this thread.
Lexicography is neither enticing words of man's wisdom nor preaching. It's a necessary language tool for understanding that accompanies spiritual communion. Paul and his audience didn't have to study high-context Greek while constrained by inherently low-context English. We do.
You might kid others with your smoke screen, but not me. We are expected to speak spiritual truths using spiritual words. Thankfully there is a promise to make foolish the wisdom of the wise and in your cases it is fulfilled.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Greek lexicography from the inspired text of scripture isn't "spiritual words" to you? Okay.
Sigh. Your self-determined unfounded subjective opinions are noted. Any chance you could troll other threads instead of this one? Thanks.
It is not.
Revelation of God and His Son speaks far deeper than words of any language or depths of language.
One will not discover the truth by words, but will try to describe the truth more accurately to the mind, so that those who hear it can become convinced that they know the truth when they have never received it.
LA
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
I well know the futility of any attempts to converse with beligerant Unitarians about such things (when they have to depend upon a nominal definition of Logos for their fallacious doctrine while decrying definitions for words), and I have no time or energy to argue with those who obliviously live predominantly by double standards.
Beyond that, it never ceases to amaze me how all the narcissistic egomaniacs without an ounce of basic decency and courtesy have to demand an audience on this thread when it's clearly a low-profile 1-on-1 conversation initiated by AMR for a specific purpose.
This thread is initially about defining Greek terms in English for communication. And dialektos (language) is from dia- and lego (logos), so language study is a focus on God's Logos that is revelatory rather than scholasticism.
The solution for you is simple, even for a deluded Unitarian. Just abstain from posting here out of simple consideration and spend time on the bazillion other threads, or start a bazillion of your own.
We already know your position on most everything. Why not just desist by self control? How hard is that?
Lon
Well-known member
Your 'quick' assessment quickly appears to all else, that big words aren't your forte'.
Er, if you can't understand the conversation, just say so, though even saying so is thread-disrupting and trolling. Just admit you cannot follow and move along. The Corinthians couldn't either. The Bereans were a bit more studious than this. The Thessalonians weren't very studious either.
So, you have some willing to study, and you have some who are pretty lazy, and some who can't get it, regardless.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
I'll not be responding to, or interacting further with, interlopers who are seeking attention for themselves as the final arbitrage of truth while posting here.
I am not a "Trinitarian" as it is commonly defined. I see the triune nature of God as one of many ways He has encouraged us to see Him that is no more and no less important than the other ways He has offered us to glean His nature. That said, I am interested in the potential of this proposed conversation and share an interest in it and hope that the protagonists ignore the white noise offered by others and get on with it to see where it goes ...