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PneumaPsucheSoma and AMR Discuss Trinitarianism

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  • I cannot say how lovely it is to me to be able to read PPS responding to someone else without me having to reply...

    And I am not surprised that AMR is former Jesuit trained...

    And I love you guys!

    Arsenios
    Arsenios

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Arsenios View Post
      I cannot say how lovely it is to me to be able to read PPS responding to someone else without me having to reply...
      Yes, I can't even image the daunting task of clinging to opera ad intra and attempting to defend it, especially with valid lexicography and exegesis.

      And I am not surprised that AMR is former Jesuit trained...
      Jesuit? Eek. I hope not.

      And I love you guys!

      Arsenios
      My love for you both as Brothers is unquestioned and unconditional.
      Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
      “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

      Comment


      • Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
        Yes, I can't even image the daunting task of clinging to opera ad intra and attempting to defend it, especially with valid lexicography and exegesis.
        Well...we'll see how it goes.

        Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
        Jesuit? Eek. I hope not.
        Shhh!


        Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
        My love for you both as Brothers is unquestioned and unconditional.
        Back at you both.

        AMR
        Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



        Do you confess?
        Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
        AMR's Randomata Blog
        Learn Reformed Doctrine
        I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
        Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
        Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.
        The best TOL Social Group: here.
        If your username appears in blue and you have over 500 posts:
        Why?


        Comment


        • Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
          It may seem redundant because it's necessary to re-categorize it from the common misconception that it's sempiternity rather than eternity. That's the fault of the Patristics, who never delineated the distinction.
          The Fathers differentiate absolutely between temporality and a-temporality, and within temporality between fallen and eternal life.

          Eternity = uncreated. God only.
          Sempiternity (Everlastingness) = created. ALL invisible and visible initial creation; heaven and the cosmos.
          Temporality = the cosmos earth age that onset with Edenic spiritual death and sin.

          Orthodoxy combines the first two, presenting the last as creation and claiming heaven was also created but without accounting for it.
          Well, we proclaim the timeless God, the eternal creation of the timeless God, and the temporary condition of fallen man.

          No, you're still not getting it completely.
          Your corrections would help...

          I'm quite sure he doesn't, but we'll see. This isn't compatible with belated post-procession/post-creation multiple hypostases, which is impossible without a multi-minded God and unison speaking to create triplicate creation.
          You may be mis-caricaturizing Orthodoxy as much as you think I am mis-caricaturizing you... The three uncreated hypostases that are God are neither post-creation nor post-procession.

          You have, I think, the ontological procession of the Holy Spirit twisted together in apposition with the ekonomia of the creation of the Word of God, and you seem to think that Mind = God Who has Thought/Logos Which when spoken creates creation in multi-level phenomena...

          That's yet another issue I've not gotten to. You're confusing what I've said so far and you're still not recognizing the basic created heavenly realm where the angels dwell.
          The Angels are the first-created, and in their realm, time is perhaps both fluid and specific - Specific in their interactions with fallen man, yet fluid in its experience... They are bodiless powers that can appear but normally do not... Their appearance is noetic normally, but not always...

          And again, it is not enough to assert my confusion of what you said without showing how I have done so and correcting it...

          And that mystery is overwrought and has led to the West's many foundations and tangents of error.
          The mess in the West is directly traceable to 10th century Papalism proclaiming the authority of the human Latin Patriarch OVER the Body of Christ on earth. It had nothing to do with doctrines or their lack regarding time in the angelic creation...

          It's not mystery when I can illustrate and apologetically delineate it with a white board.
          Do you start by drawing a circle and calling it a REALM of TIME?

          Gotta run...

          Arsenios

          Edited to add:

          I just looked and realized that this is not in the "Our Triune God" thread, so please forgive my intrusion...

          I was in a hurry prior to services this morning and lost track...

          It is happening more frequently these days...

          Lapses, I say...

          A.
          Last edited by Arsenios; May 31st, 2015, 09:55 PM.
          Arsenios

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Arsenios View Post
            The Fathers differentiate absolutely between temporality and a-temporality, and within temporality between fallen and eternal life.

            Well, we proclaim the timeless God, the eternal creation of the timeless God, and the temporary condition of fallen man.

            Your corrections would help...

            You may be mis-caricaturizing Orthodoxy as much as you think I am mis-caricaturizing you... The three uncreated hypostases that are God are neither post-creation nor post-procession.

            You have, I think, the ontological procession of the Holy Spirit twisted together in apposition with the ekonomia of the creation of the Word of God, and you seem to think that Mind = God Who has Thought/Logos Which when spoken creates creation in multi-level phenomena...

            The Angels are the first-created, and in their realm, time is perhaps both fluid and specific - Specific in their interactions with fallen man, yet fluid in its experience... They are bodiless powers that can appear but normally do not... Their appearance is noetic normally, but not always...

            And again, it is not enough to assert my confusion of what you said without showing how I have done so and correcting it...

            The mess in the West is directly traceable to 10th century Papalism proclaiming the authority of the human Latin Patriarch OVER the Body of Christ on earth. It had nothing to do with doctrines or their lack regarding time in the angelic creation...

            Do you start by drawing a circle and calling it a REALM of TIME?

            Gotta run...

            Arsenios

            Edited to add:

            I just looked and realized that this is not in the "Our Triune God" thread, so please forgive my intrusion...

            I was in a hurry prior to services this morning and lost track...

            It is happening more frequently these days...

            Lapses, I say...

            A.
            I copy/pasted this into the Triune God thread and responded there.
            Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
            “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

            Comment


            • Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
              My love for you both as Brothers is unquestioned and unconditional.
              Me Three too...

              A.
              Arsenios

              Comment


              • God's incommunicable attributes include...
                Eternity (Timelessness)
                Infinity (Non-Quantifiability)
                Immensity (Non-Spatiality)
                Immutability (Non-Changeability)
                Simplicity (Non-Divisibility/Non-Compoundability)
                Necessity (Non-Contingency)
                Aseity (Self-Existence, including Self-Consciousness)
                Impassability (Non-Passionality)
                Immateriality (Non-Materiality)

                Opera ad intra cannot include ek-/ex- procession, which is going from one place to another. That violates God's Immensity as Non-Spatiality. There is no "where" from OR to which to proceed as spatialities within God for additional alleged hypostases.

                Not to mention that it would also violate His Eternity as Timelessness (since ek-/ex- procession would also be linearity and sequentiality along with spatiality), AND it also violates His Infinity as Non-Quantifiability.
                Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
                “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

                Comment


                • Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
                  God's incommunicable attributes include...
                  Eternity (Timelessness)
                  Infinity (Non-Quantifiability)
                  Immensity (Non-Spatiality)
                  Immutability (Non-Changeability)
                  Simplicity (Non-Divisibility/Non-Compoundability)
                  Necessity (Non-Contingency)
                  Aseity (Self-Existence, including Self-Consciousness)
                  Impassability (Non-Passionality)
                  Immateriality (Non-Materiality)
                  Not really.

                  Those are the attributes that come from Aristotle's Greek Philosophy for the "unmoved mover".

                  Try the Bible next time for the real attributes of God.
                  Learn to read what is written.

                  _____
                  The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                  ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
                    Opera ad intra cannot include ek-/ex- procession, which is going from one place to another
                    By this do you assume God cannot act within Himself? That is, are you arguing all all acts of God be confined to ad extra?

                    AMR
                    Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



                    Do you confess?
                    Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
                    AMR's Randomata Blog
                    Learn Reformed Doctrine
                    I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
                    Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
                    Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.
                    The best TOL Social Group: here.
                    If your username appears in blue and you have over 500 posts:
                    Why?


                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
                      By this do you assume God cannot act within Himself? That is, are you arguing all all acts of God be confined to ad extra?

                      AMR
                      No. Ek-/ex- procession is movement FROM (and) TO. That's spatiality, and thus linearity and sequentiality.

                      "Out of" as motion would then not be "interior" to the Father. The ousia cannot be some fourth thing as a component of God distinct from the alleged hypostases themselves, just to insist upon non-exteriorization for economy.

                      This would have to then mean the (purported) Son and Holy Spirit hypostases were inside the Father hypostasis both before and after the alleged internal procession, having moved from one "place" inside Him to another "place" inside Him. That's neither innate ontology nor economy.

                      Internal procession as ad intra would deny the innate incommunicable attributes of Eternity, Infinity, Immensity, and Simplicity. The two-fold singular procession for the Logos and Pneuma (exerchomai/ekporeuomai respectively) was external.

                      And beyond this... the express image (charakter) OF a hypostasis is not another hypostasis (with the third unaccounted for anyway). Charakter is the impressing or engraving, first indicating the tool and its impress. NOT the impressed.

                      God impressed His (singular) hypostasis upon His Logos. It's not a cookie cutter and another cookie. Cookie cutters aren't cookies.
                      Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
                      “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                        Not really.
                        Yes, really.

                        Those are the attributes that come from Aristotle's Greek Philosophy for the "unmoved mover".
                        Aristotle was a moronic shill. These attributes are represented in scripture and ascribed as Reformation affirmations.

                        Try the Bible next time for the real attributes of God.
                        If you'd peruse scripture, you'd find these are represented.
                        Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
                        “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
                          These attributes are represented in scripture and ascribed as Reformation affirmations.
                          No, they really are not represented in scripture in any manner near the distortions of the Reformation affirmations.

                          Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
                          If you'd peruse scripture, you'd find these are represented.
                          I have perused scripture, which is how I know that your distortions of God's attributes, as stated in the list you presented, are distortions.

                          Take this one:
                          Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
                          Immutability (Non-Changeability)
                          Immutability is a concept from Aristotle, not the Bible.
                          Here is what the Bible states:

                          Malachi 3:6
                          6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.


                          The Septuagint translates the word used for "change" as "ἠλλοίωμαι" which is nothing like any Greek word for change.

                          Since you are a Greek scholar, find out what ἠλλοίωμαι means.
                          Learn to read what is written.

                          _____
                          The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                          ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                            No, they really are not represented in scripture in any manner near the distortions of the Reformation affirmations.


                            I have perused scripture, which is how I know that your distortions of God's attributes, as stated in the list you presented, are distortions.

                            Take this one:

                            Immutability is a concept from Aristotle, not the Bible.
                            Here is what the Bible states:

                            Malachi 3:6
                            6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.


                            The Septuagint translates the word used for "change" as "ἠλλοίωμαι" which is nothing like any Greek word for change.

                            Since you are a Greek scholar, find out what ἠλλοίωμαι means.
                            I'm familiar with sanah, the verb meaning to change, to disguise, to be different. It means to become something different or to change an attitude or character.

                            It can also mean to repeat, to do again. It indicates doing something over a second time (like striking an enemy twice, etc.).

                            Pictographically, it included teeth and a seed (representing continuance). Combined, these meant teeth continue. The two front teeth are sharp and used for cutting by pressing down. Forefront. And the sense of repeating.

                            From this comes the idea of being at rest or in the state of rest. Ease, quiet.

                            Since that's the Hebrew understanding and meaning, I'm fine with that as God being Immutable according to that definition.

                            Immutability is not what I'm challenging with the procession.
                            Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
                            “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
                              I'm familiar with sanah, the verb meaning to change, to disguise, to be different. It means to become something different or to change an attitude or character.

                              It can also mean to repeat, to do again. It indicates doing something over a second time (like striking an enemy twice, etc.).
                              Then you are aware that the verse used to make the claim that God is immutable is actually a statement by God that Israel is not destroyed because He will not go back on His Word, not a statement of immutability.
                              Learn to read what is written.

                              _____
                              The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                              ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                                Not really.

                                Those are the attributes that come from Aristotle's Greek Philosophy for the "unmoved mover".
                                Er, no. The “god” of the philosophers was lonely, isolated, and compassionless.

                                Since you challenge folks to read the Bible on the matter, perhaps you should take your own advice...

                                http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...12#post1532512

                                http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...73#post1532973

                                AMR
                                Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



                                Do you confess?
                                Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
                                AMR's Randomata Blog
                                Learn Reformed Doctrine
                                I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
                                Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
                                Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.
                                The best TOL Social Group: here.
                                If your username appears in blue and you have over 500 posts:
                                Why?


                                Comment

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